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Old 01-29-2013, 04:32 PM   #271
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But the Cleveland Hellmouth was referenced way earlier in the series.

Without going off to research, I want to say it was mentioned as far back as Season 1 and in Season 3 when Faith showed up.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:55 PM   #272
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Did they actually reference a hellmouth there or is it just where the other Buffy ends up?
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:19 PM   #273
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But the Cleveland Hellmouth was referenced way earlier in the series.
So it was not a joke.

Like I said, trivialized the whole thing.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:24 PM   #274
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The other hellmouth in Cleveland was referred to in "The Wish" (S3) and then again in the finale ("Chosen"). In "The Wish" it was where the Wishverse Buffy was "stationed" (since Cordy's wish was that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale), and Giles said it was a known demonic hotbed or something similar.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:26 PM   #275
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So it was not a joke.

Like I said, trivialized the whole thing.
I don't think it trivilialized anything. It wasn't as if Buffy had removed evil from the world or anything by derailing the First's plans to unleash the Uruk'hai (or whatever the uber-Vamps were called). Heck, it wasn't even the first time she had averted an apocalypse. That was basically an annual event.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:46 PM   #276
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Right, they destroyed the hellmouth, but it took like 20 slayers and a superspell to do it and even then they would have failed except for the magic amulet that showed up at the last minute and a vampire with a soul to give his life.

And then they just casually mention that there is another hellmouth in Cleveland.

So their apparently epic victory was worth very little. They may have to pull it off again in a few years. Except in Cleveland. Ouch.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:05 PM   #277
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I guess I don't understand the dislike of season 1. *shrug* I thought it was a nice, well paced, short season, and very enjoyable. The tone was a nice mix of light and dark. Yes, from a production aspect, Joss still has some growing up and learning to do, but it was far from "barely watchable" for me.
Ditto! I hadn't rewatched it in a long time and based on the comments early in this thread I thought it was be awful, but I found it quite enjoyable. The dialog is as sharp as ever right from the beginning. The production values were pretty bad and some of the stories were not that good. On the other hand, the first season standalone episodes had more of an X-Files feel to them, which I quite appreciated being an X-Files fan.

I barely remember the series finale, so will have to wait to comment on that.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:22 PM   #278
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So their apparently epic victory was worth very little. They may have to pull it off again in a few years. Except in Cleveland. Ouch.
This is a theme that Joss has revisited several times. It's even more prevalent in Angel.

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:34 PM   #279
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If nothing the characters do matters, then anything they do is quite trivial. By definition.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:36 PM   #280
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Tell that to Joss.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:52 PM   #281
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S05E02 Real Me - B
S05E03 The Replacement - A
S05E04 Out of My Mind - C

Pretty strong start to season 5. I liked the new perspective shown in Real Me, though it was a bit of a misdirection to have Dawn's narration say things like "they don't know the real me" as if to imply Dawn has insight into what's happening. As a big sister, I could empathize a little with Buffy.

The Replacement is another Xander-centric episode and while not as good as The Zeppo, it's still a pretty fun episode. Of course, the final scene with Xander and Riley just crushes me.

Out of My Mind makes me sad, about Joyce, and it's not a great Riley episode, even though I like him more than most, he's far from perfect. But, the Spike stuff, as usual, elevates this episode. Actually, I was going to give it a B but I think it's just C level.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:54 AM   #282
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Tell that to Joss.
Viewers have.

His TV series may have dedicated cult followings, but none were true hits with the public.

I for one eventually tired of his incessant misdirection and gotchas, with hard fought victories being nothing more than a trivial nothing, because something even worse was coming.

In a two hour movie, the climatic victory jubilation turning into dread that more evil is coming, well, that may be neat storytelling. But in a TV series, that sort of ending time after time is exhausting.

I am of the opinion that Joss could never really attract droves of viewers, beyond the cult following that we were part of, because his shows tended to be depressing, despite the humor.

He wrote witty dialog. He had terrific surprises. And I enjoyed his series overall, Dollhouse notwithstanding. [shudder]

But when nothing you do matters, then eventually viewers begin to wonder why am I watching what they do?

And ratings reflected that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #283
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That's a load of crap. One of the best things about the Whedonverse is the season long 'Big Bad' that is defeated in the end. None of this endless stringing the viewer along that never actually amounts to anything. None of the 'shady organization' that is pulling the strings behind every moment for years and years and years. A bad guy, a story, an end.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:08 AM   #284
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And it's funny how much the tv landscape has changed, since Buffy's 5 million viewers a week would be considered a huge hit by the CW and even a modest success on some of the other networks.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:40 PM   #285
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S05E05 No Place Like Home - C
S05E06 Family - B
S05E07 Fool for Love - B
S05E08 Shadow - D

I feeling less love for season 5 than I remember having, but I went through the same thing with season 3, so it might fade. I think the problem right now is that many of the episode have poor episode content and are focused on moving along the larger story. And the Joyce stuff is just depressing. I don't remember The Body being so far along in the season and I'm not looking forward to that dragging on.

No Place Like Home introduced Glory, which is awesome, but otherwise was kind of meh. And the big reveal about Dawn, finally, now Buffy can stop being such a jerk to her.

Family I liked more this time around. I think generally I'm just less annoyed by Tara. (I was devastated when Willow picked Tara over Oz and just never moved beyond that.) I even got a little teary-eyed when they all stood up for her.

Fool for Love I was tempted to give an A, but I really don't like Angel in flashbacks or Darla.

Shadow was just a boring, angsty episode. I think knowing what's coming is making me have less patience. I liked Riley much more last time, he's starting to annoy me this season. I'd like him to get over himself already. I'm pretty close to that being over at least. Interestingly, I'm also annoyed at how Buffy is treating him. I think they could have worked, but it was just the wrong time for them. Buffy is right to want to focus on her family. Riley is right to want to not be shut out. Time to move on.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:43 PM   #286
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Did you watch Fool for Love along with the corresponding Angel episode Darla? The combination of the two is excellent.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:46 PM   #287
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I realized I hadn't finished my thought about that episode. I don't like Darla and, generally, the flashbacks of Angel's past. I did not watch the Angel companion episode.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #288
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I realized I hadn't finished my thought about that episode. I don't like Darla and, generally, the flashbacks of Angel's past. I did not watch the Angel companion episode.
The companion episode shows the same flashbacks but from Darla's point of view. I love the flashbacks, and seeing them from two different perspectives was brilliant.

BTW, I'm enjoying your reviews. Although there are a few eps I've watched multiple times, I only watched the entire series once through. It's great to relive the series through your reviews.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:21 PM   #289
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BTW, I'm enjoying your reviews. Although there are a few eps I've watched multiple times, I only watched the entire series once through. It's great to relive the series through your reviews.
Thanks! I'm glad someone likes them.

S05E09 Listening to Fear - D
S05E10 Into the Woods - C
S05E11 Triangle - B
S05E12 Checkpoint - B
S05E13 Blood Ties - B
S05E14 Crush - B

More than any of the previous seasons, this season is defined by the season long arc. Many of the episodes have single-episode stories that are pretty weak and the episodes really serve to move the arc along. Rather than living their lives with the danger lurking in the shadow, this season, the danger is front and center every episode. It's more serious and adult. In some ways it's good, but I miss the wit and lightness.

Listening to Fear just sucked. Into the Wood was an ok send-off for Riley. I wish they hadn't sent Buffy after him at the end, just let her realize that she couldn't give him what he wanted. After those two, we got into a nice set. I think it also helps that Joyce is out of the hospital at this point.

Triangle had the fun dialog and more lighthearted tone I'e been missing. Checkpoint brought back the Watcher's Council and had a nice triumphant moment for Buffy over them. Dawn discovering she is the key in Blood Ties was also handled well, just like a 14 year old would react, and featured our first full Scoobies vs. Glory battle. Finally, Crush puts Spike and his multiple love interests front and center for some fun hijinks.

I did watch a the first three episodes of season two of Angel. I liked them better than I did season one, so I'll probably keep going with them. I wanted to try to catch-up on Angel to where I am on Buffy, but I want to know what happens on Buffy. I mean, I know what happens, have even been reading Wikipedia to remind myself what happens to some characters, but it's different to experience it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:04 PM   #290
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I finally had time to finish season 3. I loved this season. I'll miss the Mayor. He was a pretty entertaining big bad.

I'll probably start watching Angel now, too. So little time, so many TV shows to watch.

Oh, and who was the pity casting?
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #291
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I finally had time to finish season 3. I loved this season. I'll miss the Mayor. He was a pretty entertaining big bad.

I'll probably start watching Angel now, too. So little time, so many TV shows to watch.

Oh, and who was the pity casting?
Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.

IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:25 PM   #292
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Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.

IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.
Thanks. I don't remember the Angel characters, but do remember Nathan on Buffy. I hated the character, but I don't think any other actor could have done it any better.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:49 PM   #293
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Nathan Fillion on Buffy, and both Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres on Angel.

IMO, Nathan was the more egregious of the three.
Gina Torres was great on Angel, so I'm not sure I'd call it pity casting.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:24 PM   #294
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Gina Torres was great on Angel, so I'm not sure I'd call it pity casting.
My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember actively disliking that whole plotline. I seem to recall that it was rather unplanned because Charisma, with rather little notice, decided to leave the show. (Edit: I do see several references to her being fired, so I don't know.)
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:41 PM   #295
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I didn't particularly like the Caleb character, but I thought Nathan did fine with the role. Not sure who else could have done better.

And Gina and Adam were very good on Angel, I thought. Adam especially so.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:53 PM   #296
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I didn't particularly like the Caleb character, but I thought Nathan did fine with the role. Not sure who else could have done better.
The character was pretty good; Fillion's performance, however, was dreadful.

The concept of the character was supposed to be this folksy, charming, rural/southern preacher who reveals himself to be completely creepy and twisted. I never got that folksy, rural vibe from him... he sort of did this weird southern accent, but it was just awful.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:36 AM   #297
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My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember actively disliking that whole plotline. I seem to recall that it was rather unplanned because Charisma, with rather little notice, decided to leave the show. (Edit: I do see several references to her being fired, so I don't know.)
Nope. She didn't quit.

Charisma got pregnant with her son, Donovan. Charisma's pregnancy apparently conflicted with Joss' initial plot outlines,
Spoiler:
as I read that initially SHE was to be the season's BIG BAD. So he wrote her in a role that became less and less physical, until he had a story reason to have her in a coma.


To her surprise, she was not brought back the next season., which is one reason why I thought it suffered.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:35 PM   #298
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I stalled out on Buffy. I have one more episode and then the Body and I'm not sure I'm ready for that one yet. I've been putting it off.

Instead, I've been ripping through Angel season 2. Even though I don't like Darla, I'm still quite entertained. It is much better than season 1. I'm about episode 16 or 17.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:32 AM   #299
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Also, Lindsey is so much hotter since he cut his hair mid season 2. Yum!

Spoiler:
I hope he comes back.

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Old 02-07-2013, 07:59 AM   #300
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The Body, is that the one where
Spoiler:
Joyce dies?

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