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Old 10-18-2012, 10:41 PM   #1
inane2
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New TiVo Premiere Ground Loop?

Good evening guys!

Newb but fellow Tivo enthusiest here. Just installed a TiVo Premiere over the weekend. Started with the original Tivo, moved up to the Tivo 2 DT in 2006 and, believe it or not, used it until now.

I recently left my TiVo 2 behind for the Premiere due to absolutely terrible picture quality. I'm using the cable service provided by the city and there is no cable box, just the coax coming out of the wall into the TiVo and then on up to the TV. My buddy got rid of his TiVo 2 and went to the city's DVR box recently. He told me he was tired of his poor video quality as well. I went by his place after the install and his pic is amazing now. All non-HD programming on a Vizio LCD. The city's DVR is cheaper but I really like the format and navigation of the TiVo much better so I'm trying to stick it out with TiVo so I bought the Premiere. I'm not kidding guys, when I had my friends over for the Final Four, I was embarassed. The picture was that bad on the TiVo 2. Didn't think much about it during the summer since we're outdoors most evenings, but with the new fall line-ups, I decided to get my picture back!

A little background, I'm using a Sony LCD TV (52", 1080P with 120Hz) that I bought new in 2009. I'm also using a TiVo wireless adapter via USB. I bought this in 2007 I believe. Standard cable programming through my city, around 70 channels, all non-HD. TiVo is connected to my TV via the supplied HDMI cable.

After installing the Premiere, I instantly noticed two thick horizontal lines that scroll vertically. There are not present during the intro video, only while on TV programming. They weren't present on the TiVo 2. Even with the terrible pic on the T2, I would have remembered them! The lines are also present in the small video window in the upper right corner while I'm browsing the channel line-up.

Did some lurking on here and decided to try some things. Unplugged the Wireless Adapter, no luck. The TiVo is on a surge protector with the TV, DVD player and a small clock. Started messing around with this and noticed that by unplugging the DVD player, the lines almost disappear. They are still there, but very faint. Plug the DVD player back in and they re-appear full force. I then plugged the TiVo into an outlet further down the wall (by iteself) and the lines are just as strong. I'm not having any audio problems with these lines. Bypass the TiVo by hooking the TV directly into the coax at the baseboard or even plug it into the main service box on the outside of the house and the lines are not present and the picture is much better. I should mention that the Premiere has better quality than the TiVo 2 but it wasn't what I expected. My movie channels like HBO and Cinemax are channels 14-18 and they are pretty good. I get into the upper numbered channels in the 60's like Animal Planet and the History Channel and the pic is almost as bad as it was with the TiVo 2. I have noticed that the small picture in picture window (that is shown when you are looking at the channel guide) is amazing, it looks like you bypassed the TiVo and hooked directly up. The two scrolling lines are there, but the pic is great! That is the picture I trying to achieve.

1. Any ideas on chasing the source of the scrolling lines down?
2. Any ideas on improving my pic quality?

Sorry for the lengthy post, just trying to get as much info out as possible.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Last edited by inane2 : 10-18-2012 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #2
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Does the coax cable connect to the building's earth ground where it enters the building? It must as even required by the NEC (human safety codes for electric wires). Many cable techs have no idea; do not both to make that critically important connection. That missing ground might explain your 'noise' (ie black lines).
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:57 AM   #3
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Good morning Westom.

I'll check that when I get home. There is a ground wire that comes out of the coax service box. It is a bare copper wire that is now green. For some reason I think that it comes off the splitter, but I could be wrong. I also believe it runs over to the large metal conduit that my main electric service is in just before goes into the meter. I think that it's grounded to the conduit itself.

I'm just going from memory on this but will check it out after work.

I certainly appreciate your help.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:06 PM   #4
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Have you tried taking your Tivo over to your buddy's place to see if it works better there (or vice versa)?
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:42 PM   #5
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Good afternoon lillevig,

I have not tried that, hadn't thought of that actually.

Thanks for the suggestion.
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:39 PM   #6
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You can also ask the cable co for a ground isolator, I needing one as there was about 30 VAC from the open cable coming into my home and my water pipe cable ground, than the problem TV black bars went away.
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:40 PM   #7
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Update W/ Pics

Hey guys,

I've been tied up on some other, more pressing projects but now I'm back to trying to improve my video quality.

Here are some pics I took of my cable service box. You will notice the main line coming in, going to a splitter, the internet line taking off and the TV line taking off with some small device (perhaps a filter of some sort). The ground from the splitter is a old copper line that runs over to the conduit for my electric service.
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:41 PM   #8
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Ok, can't post pics just yet. However, I feel this post may just do the trick!
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:41 PM   #9
inane2
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I haven't tried anything other than what I mentioned in my initial post. Do you all think maybe the ground wire is picking something up from the electric conduit? The main service and meter is just above where the wire is grounded. It may be fine, but it just looks like a quick, easy way to ground something.

Again, I have no ground loop issues at all when the TV is hooked up directly to the coax coming out of the baseboard. However, when the TiVo Premier is involved, I get the scrolling horizontal lines and my overall picture quality suffers.

College basketball is firing up and I need to get this fixed!

Thanks again.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:10 AM   #10
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That is definitely not a proper ground. Actually, it looks to me like that conduit might be plastic! Even if not, it is still not a proper ground. It's supposed to be a copper clad steel ground rod, at least 8' long, driven into the soil. Barring that, attaching to a COPPER (not steel) cold water pipe coming into the house from the city service may suffice.

I can't guarantee that is what is causing the problem, though.

How are the DVD and the TiVo connected to the TV? What else is connected to your cable, and where?

The little cylinder looks like a channel trap, but it doesn't make much sense to put a channel trap on one leg of a subscriber's house splitter, or for that matter to put it anywhere the subscriber can get to it. It might be a low pass filter to prevent problems with something like MoCA.

For the rest, you will need to be more specific concerning why you say the video looks bad. Digital video is not subject to degradation due to environmental influences the way analog video is.

Last edited by lrhorer : 11-04-2012 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:19 AM   #11
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I think that is a ground loop isolator.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:31 PM   #12
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I think that is a ground loop isolator.
That could well be the case, but then once again, why install it on a tap leg of the splitter? If he has a reversed ground somewhere in the house, then it needs to be fixed, not covered up with an isolator.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:12 PM   #13
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Off your topic, but out of curiosity, what city do you live in that provides its own cable service- seemingly without HD at that?
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:16 PM   #14
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Okay, on the bottom left of the electrical service entrance, the meter box, there's a piece of metal conduit which is joined to the meter box with a piece of non-conducting conduit. That's the short gray plastic looking part. It might even be one of those expansion type things to allow for the metal part moving up and down as the ground does (frost line, not earthquake).

Inside that conduit combo should be a piece of copper wire which goes down indside that conduit to the ground or under where it (the wire) is bonded to the building's grounding electrode, perhaps a driven ground rod.

The conduit is really there for physical protection.

What you really should have is a piece of that green insulated wire coming out of the phone box and another coming out of the cable box and both going down and being bonded to that same building grounding electrode.

Instead, the metal part of the conduit, which may be bonded on the bottom end to the same place as the meter's ground wire or may just be metal sticking into the ground near the building ground, is where the green wire is bonded by that clamp near the top.

Can't tell from the pictures, but it looks like perhaps the wire runs from the clamp to the phone box and then loops over to the cable box.

But I could be wrong, there appears to be a green wire running behind the cable box off to the right to connect to who knows what, and another that seems to be running up the right hand side of the meter box to who knows what or where.

At this point, I'd want to dig with the care of an archaeologist to make sure the meter box is properly grounded.

Which has a lot less to do with a good picture than it does not having anyone electrocuted or the house burning down.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:09 PM   #15
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Thanks guys for all of the responses and input! This is certainly what makes technical forums great.

I'll try to answer some of the questions and make some clarifications from the pitures. I went back out this evening and took a closer look at everything.

The conduit that the ground wire is attached to is all metal. The top part above the clamp is rust free while below the clamp is dirty and somewhat rusty. It does go all the way to the ground, but I don't know how far.

The extra cables running around are phone lines. When this house was built, the upstairs was left as storage. After the original owners had children, the upstairs was finished into bedrooms and a bath. Those phone lines run up there, on the outside of the house no less.

The ground wire from the splitter in the cable box goes directly to the ground clamp on that piece of conduit. It does go behind the phone box but is not tied into it all.

The cable service comes down from overhead besides the conduit carrying the electrical service into the box. Then, the two cables (TV and internet) exit out of the right side of the box and go around the house, again, externally.

The little item in question in the cable box attached to the splitter says "Thomas & Betts, LRC TBTTRP-HPF02M". Did some googling and all I can find is that part is described as a "filter".

The channel trap is located at the top of a tall utility post in my adjoining fields, guarded by a herd of very curious donkeys. Funny story about that...........when I first moved in about 4 years ago, the previous owners had all the extra movie channels and it added quite a bit to my monthly cable bill. I called the city to have them discontiue that service. So, a couple of days later, an outside contractor shows up in a little Ford Ranger. Nice kid, probably summer help. He noticed the trap was pretty high up, I hadn't bush-hogged yet so the chiggers were in full force and it was raining. To top it all off, this field has several donkeys in yet. My youngest jack, Duke, is very "friendly" with all of his field guests. He is actually more of a "lover" than a fighter. So anyways, the guy sizes the situation up and says "Uh.....don't worry about it, I'll fill out the work order as completed." Broke poor Duke's heart!

The city cable service does offer a very basic HD package (ABC, CBS, NBC) and does rent the cable cards to allow the HD signal in. I'm trying to stay away from this because if you pay for those two extras, you might as well go ahead and use their DVR.

In the house, I currently have the TiVo plugged up to its own outlet. It was on a surge protector with a DVD player, the TV and a small clock. Unplugging DVD player did help with the lines. However, when I plugged the TiVo in on a different outlet further down the wall, the lines came back just a strong. I did check my outlets with a small tester that gives you different color lights, they all came back with double orange or "OK". It's supposed to show if you have an open ground or a hot/ground reverse.

DVD player is hooked with with component cables, TiVo is hooked up with the supplied HDMI cable. Using a wireless TiVo network adapter via USB.

Thanks again for all of the help guys, I really appreciate it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by inane2 View Post
Thanks guys for all of the responses and input! This is certainly what makes technical forums great.

I'll try to answer some of the questions and make some clarifications from the pitures. I went back out this evening and took a closer look at everything.

The conduit that the ground wire is attached to is all metal. The top part above the clamp is rust free while below the clamp is dirty and somewhat rusty. It does go all the way to the ground, but I don't know how far.

The extra cables running around are phone lines. When this house was built, the upstairs was left as storage. After the original owners had children, the upstairs was finished into bedrooms and a bath. Those phone lines run up there, on the outside of the house no less.

The ground wire from the splitter in the cable box goes directly to the ground clamp on that piece of conduit. It does go behind the phone box but is not tied into it all.

The cable service comes down from overhead besides the conduit carrying the electrical service into the box. Then, the two cables (TV and internet) exit out of the right side of the box and go around the house, again, externally.

The little item in question in the cable box attached to the splitter says "Thomas & Betts, LRC TBTTRP-HPF02M". Did some googling and all I can find is that part is described as a "filter".

The channel trap is located at the top of a tall utility post in my adjoining fields, guarded by a herd of very curious donkeys. Funny story about that...........when I first moved in about 4 years ago, the previous owners had all the extra movie channels and it added quite a bit to my monthly cable bill. I called the city to have them discontiue that service. So, a couple of days later, an outside contractor shows up in a little Ford Ranger. Nice kid, probably summer help. He noticed the trap was pretty high up, I hadn't bush-hogged yet so the chiggers were in full force and it was raining. To top it all off, this field has several donkeys in yet. My youngest jack, Duke, is very "friendly" with all of his field guests. He is actually more of a "lover" than a fighter. So anyways, the guy sizes the situation up and says "Uh.....don't worry about it, I'll fill out the work order as completed." Broke poor Duke's heart!

The city cable service does offer a very basic HD package (ABC, CBS, NBC) and does rent the cable cards to allow the HD signal in. I'm trying to stay away from this because if you pay for those two extras, you might as well go ahead and use their DVR.

In the house, I currently have the TiVo plugged up to its own outlet. It was on a surge protector with a DVD player, the TV and a small clock. Unplugging DVD player did help with the lines. However, when I plugged the TiVo in on a different outlet further down the wall, the lines came back just a strong. I did check my outlets with a small tester that gives you different color lights, they all came back with double orange or "OK". It's supposed to show if you have an open ground or a hot/ground reverse.

DVD player is hooked with with component cables, TiVo is hooked up with the supplied HDMI cable. Using a wireless TiVo network adapter via USB.

Thanks again for all of the help guys, I really appreciate it.
Green ground cables and grey station cables can look about the same color in a picture like that, especially after several years out in the weather.

The unrusted part at the top of that thinwall looked kind of like Schedule 40 PVC.

Undo the wire from that clamp on the thinwall and loosen the clamp. Slide it out of the way. Use some sandpaper and clean up the area where it was clamped.

Put the clamp back.

Use the sandpaper on the end of the wire that was clamped to the clamp.

Then re-attach it.

Remove the other end from the grounding block in the cable co's demarcation box (or maybe that's what the phone company calls their version) and sandpaper it as well.

Remove the screw from the grounding block and sandpaper the end that contacts the wire. Curl up a small piece of the sandpaper and brighten up the place on/in the grounding block where the wire goes.

Put it back together.

That's a stopgap measure.

You really should have a green wire running from that block straight to the actual building grounding electrode.

You should have a separate one coming out of the phone box to the electrode as well.

If the cable and phone company are that lax, I'd be suspicious of the electrical installation/inspection/code enforcement as well and want to see where the wire inside that thinwall conduit coming out of the bottom of the meter box actually goes.

Each grounding wire that goes to the building grounding electrode gets its own clamp. No sharing.



Put the screw
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:50 AM   #17
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Exclamation Update

Hey guys!

Finally got back around to working on the ground loop issue. Had some family over for Thanksgiving and they enjoyed the scrolling lines.

Went out yesterday and cleaned up the ground wire that comes from the splitter and is grounded on the conduit for the main electrical service. Cleaned up the ends of the wire, the spot where the wire clamp touches the conduit, the clamp itself and the small grouding screw in the splitter. The clamp is one its last leg and needs replacing, it's rusted beyond being serviceable. Anyways, put it all back together and the picture is terrible. There are now 3 lines per group that scroll vertically and the picture itself is horrible. But, I definitely think we are on the right track. I have a new splitter upstairs (same brand, Digitap) that the installers left at my old house. It's a 5 way. I then tried used it since the ground screw is nice, new and shiny but it didn't affect the quality.

A few options I'm pondering :

1. Purchase a new grounding clamp for the splitter's ground wire at the conduit. As mentioned earlier, the conduit is there for the protection of the grounding rod itself.

2. Dig down and attempt attaching the splitter's ground wire to the actual grounding rod itself.

3. Drive a seperate grounding rod for the cable.

4. Investigate the conduit coming out the bottom of the phone service box for it's grounding potential.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:20 PM   #18
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Forgot to mention, the rusty old ground clamp is just a universal ground strap that used to be galvanized back in its prime. It's kind of a "one-size-fits-most" deal.

I plan on replacing that this evening.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
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1. Purchase a new grounding clamp for the splitter's ground wire at the conduit. As mentioned earlier, the conduit is there for the protection of the grounding rod itself.
No. That is not a proper ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inane2 View Post
2. Dig down and attempt attaching the splitter's ground wire to the actual grounding rod itself.
Better, but I wouldn't. OTOH, it would not be a bad idea to have your power company come out and test the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inane2 View Post
3. Drive a seperate grounding rod for the cable.
That is definitely preferable. Ground rods are not expensive, and are available at any hardware store. Driving one will wear you out, but the first 4 or 5 feet aren't usually too bad. Take a beak and come back the next day.

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4. Investigate the conduit coming out the bottom of the phone service box for it's grounding potential.
No.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:06 PM   #20
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Post # 6 will most likely fix your problem, from you picture you do not have one as the ground isolator comes from the main cable to the splitter.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:09 AM   #21
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Good morning guys!

Thanks lrhorer, there is great info here.

Stopped by Lowe's on the way home and grabbed a 5/8" x 8' copper coated ground rod. Came out 10" from the house to avoid the footer and placed the rod below the cable box. Drove it down until there was 9" left above the ground. It was dark and raining, so I called it a night. Will work on grounding the cable this evening. Going to have to run a new cable, I assume keep it a solid strand and short as possible?

Grabbed this clamp at lowes.



Fits the rod just fine, but will have to mess with it some to get a tight fight on the ground wire. I had some eyelets to fit over the set bolt but they weren't tight with the bolt run up. It looks like this clamp is made to add something a little thicker to your 5/8" rod.

Thanks Les. I'll look into the isolator. I may check with the guys at the city cable department. We have a Radio Shack here but I'm not seeing anything online for a video ground loop isolator.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:46 PM   #22
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Thanks lrhorer, there is great info here.
You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by inane2 View Post
Stopped by Lowe's on the way home and grabbed a 5/8" x 8' copper coated ground rod. Came out 10" from the house to avoid the footer and placed the rod below the cable box. Drove it down until there was 9" left above the ground.
Electrically, that would probably be OK, but you really probably do not want a copper-clad steel rod sticking up in your yard. It presents a tripping and minor impalement hazard, especially if the grass gets tall or at night, and presents issues when mowing the lawn. Unless the rod is blocked off by some yard appurtenance, I would dig down a bit (8 or 10cm), drive the rod all the way down below ground level, attach the bolt, and cover it up with soil.

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Will work on grounding the cable this evening. Going to have to run a new cable, I assume keep it a solid strand and short as possible?
Well, not necessarily. Proper routing that eliminates issues such as tripping over the wire or accidentally cutting it are of greater concern. Don't run it half-way down the block and back, but otherwise, a few feet more or less shoud not make much difference. I would definitely bury it a few cm down on the run between the house and the ground rod.

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Grabbed this clamp at lowes.

Yep. That's the one for a 5/8" rod. They also make "spider" clamps, but they are usually used with 3/8" rods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inane2 View Post
Fits the rod just fine, but will have to mess with it some to get a tight fight on the ground wire.
You shouldn't. The little bulge at the pointy end opposite the bolt is designed to hold the ground wire. If the ground wire slips out of that channel with the bolt tightened, then you are using wire that is a little too thin. #8 or #10 wire should work, or maybe even #12.

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Thanks Les.
We are both "Les", actually. He is Les D. and I am Les R.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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Good morning guys!

Thanks lrhorer, there is great info here.

Stopped by Lowe's on the way home and grabbed a 5/8" x 8' copper coated ground rod. Came out 10" from the house to avoid the footer and placed the rod below the cable box. Drove it down until there was 9" left above the ground. It was dark and raining, so I called it a night. Will work on grounding the cable this evening. Going to have to run a new cable, I assume keep it a solid strand and short as possible?

Grabbed this clamp at lowes.



Fits the rod just fine, but will have to mess with it some to get a tight fight on the ground wire. I had some eyelets to fit over the set bolt but they weren't tight with the bolt run up. It looks like this clamp is made to add something a little thicker to your 5/8" rod.

Thanks Les. I'll look into the isolator. I may check with the guys at the city cable department. We have a Radio Shack here but I'm not seeing anything online for a video ground loop isolator.
Amazon has them, look here http://www.amazon.com/Viewsonics-VSI...+loop+isolator or look for Viewsonics VSIS-EU Cable TV Ground Loop Isolator, will most likely solve your problem as it did my problem (the cable tech gave me his)
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