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Old 10-03-2012, 06:31 PM   #91
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Adolph of Austria never was promoted beyond the rank of Gefreiter or Private when he served in the German Army.
He was also convicted of high treason and yet managed to become head of State.
And he managed to do so in less than 15 years in a civilized society through "peaceful means" and without having to rely on a catastrophe or apocalyptic event to take place, merely by scapegoating and preying on the fears and insecurities of his followers. Once he got a bit of power, he began consolidating it and systematically eliminating his enemies and their ability to fight back (by throwing key opponents in concentration camps, silencing the press, and by organized brutality).

So it's not like there's no precedent...
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:55 PM   #92
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I think people tend to accept loss of freedom to avoid living in anarchy. At first it would be about scrounging stuff, but soon you would realize that you have to learn to grow food, raise animals and make basic needs for yourself. Then you plant a nice crop, and when harvest comes a band of thugs come and steal it. You would be willing to throw in with anyone who could stop that and not worry about what they call the country. Probably most people are paying their "taxes" and being left alone--we're just seeing the ones who aren't.
This seems like a very realistic response to their world. And we know the people in the cul-de-sac were paying their taxes and probably did not have any issue until they came around looking for Charlies father.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:13 PM   #93
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I am going to disagree here. All forms of communication ceased in an instant. Without communications, there is no chance for the government to coordinate serving the population. How would the POTUS command the government? Hand written orders? How could you authenticate such orders?

As an example, how far do you live away from your work? Most do not work within walking distance. I work 65 miles away from my house. How long for me to walk home, especially if I was not prepared with potable water and food?

Even on military bases, only the lowest rank typically live on base. Most higher rank live off base, and not within walking distance. And would they leave their homes to report for duty in these circumstances? And those on duty on base would try to get to their loved ones. And if a messenger showed up with written orders from POTUS, would you know what his handwriting really looked like?

And the rest of the globe is in the same boat as we are, so potential invasion from hostile forces is a minimal threat in the short time.

Local law enforcement? Look at New Orleans and Katrina, and they had warning.

Society would fall within a few days in urban areas, a week in suburban, and a month in rural. Our food supply chain delivers "Just in time", and most people have maybe a weeks worth of food available after pershiables go bad due to a lack power. No food? Bad things happen... What I have found interesting is there has been no mention on what was done with the bodies of those who did not survive. I am curious on what the population of the CONUS is at that point in time.

Maybe there is something to the Mormon belief to have a years worth of food on hand. Have I just talked myself into being a prepper? (Do not cue the Dr. Pepper jokes)....

I would love to hear more on what happened on the boarder regions after the event, and what did really happen to the government.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:17 PM   #94
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For some reason I have faith that police officers would be dedicated to their duties beyond "a week or two." Call me crazy.
What type of support would the police have? How would they eat? Are they enough police not to send them out alone? And it is nothing but foot patrol, so their effective radius is a half days walk from the station. And would it be martial law, or would they arrest people? How would you feed those arrested? Would the jails be manageable without electricity? And would the courts be functional?

Police would be the first to throw in the towel.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:21 PM   #95
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Well, we've already seen that Monroe isn't able to effectively police the entire area because a) some people still have guns, and b) there is a rebellion working to subvert him. Monroe rules through fear - apparently by random acts of cruelty through his traveling bands of henchmen - and by defusing the ability of others to rise to power (by confiscating weapons when they are discovered).
The fact that some civilians have guns does not mean that Monroe is not able to police the region. It just means that it is not perfect. Which no police force is.

Similarly, the fact that there is resistance to his rule proves little. Every dictatorship I'm familiar with had to deal with rebels, but many dictatorships last quite a while anyway.

And all rule is ultimately by fear. Even in a democracy, the reason most people obey most laws is not because they are perfect citizens (or, not only because), it is because they fear the consequences if they break the law.

So, none of your justifications make sense. The question remains. If Monroe is able to rule the whole region, then why did the much better equipped and trained police and military of the US not do so? Especially when they had the existing government backing going for them. It is absurd that the US patriots are considered rebels now. Completely unbelievable.

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Old 10-03-2012, 07:31 PM   #96
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Why do I have this crazy feeling that, somehow, the rebels are going to manage to get the one operating warship that doesn't need electricity - USS Constitution - into Lake Michigan and somehow use it to take back the region?

For that matter, why do I think that, if there ever is an ending, that the people who want the "United States" to return would want to reform the 50 states as they were, which makes no sense?
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #97
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So, none of your justifications make sense. The question remains. If Monroe is able to rule the whole region, then why did the much better equipped and trained police and military of the US not do so? Especially when they had the existing government backing going for them. It is absurd that the US patriots are considered rebels now. Completely unbelievable.
See Win Joy's posts above.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:44 PM   #98
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See Win Joy's posts above.
I saw it. Does not answer my question. All he does is list reasons why it would be difficult to maintain rule after the electricity stopped working.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:50 PM   #99
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I saw it. Does not answer my question. All he does is list reasons why it would be difficult to maintain rule after the electricity stopped working.
I addressed your question in the second paragraph of my post that you for some reason redacted when you responded to it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:10 PM   #100
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I addressed your question in the second paragraph of my post that you for some reason redacted when you responded to it.
I didn't respond because it was a non-answer. It makes no sense.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:21 PM   #101
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So, none of your justifications make sense. The question remains. If Monroe is able to rule the whole region, then why did the much better equipped and trained police and military of the US not do so? Especially when they had the existing government backing going for them. It is absurd that the US patriots are considered rebels now. Completely unbelievable.
You are missing my point. The government ceased to exist when the power went out. There is no command and control system in place without communications. How would the commanding officer of a military base in the Chicago coordinate with Washington which is days or weeks ride away?
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:35 PM   #102
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They actually did try to explain it. No way to make bullets for them. So they have to resort to the old ways of making them.

I almost bailed on the show when they went into the lady's house and not even raised an eyebrow at why, 15 years later, there's a CD player with headphones right there on the table.

I don't really care about the explanation on why electricity was shut off. I want to hear the explanation on how, in just 15 years, Americans threw away their country, their flag, and any semblance of patriotism. Are we sure this is not an Al-Qaeda propaganda show?
Think about how much the world has changed since 1997 with central authority and numerous ways to keep in contact and distribute information. It would take a relatively short period of time for these things to fall about. Within twelve months everything would have pretty much dissolved. People would strictly be trying to survive. With new authority, power and control things would change.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:37 PM   #103
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Not so sure. I think the US military would fare quite well against the monroe militia.
The us military would cease to exist fairly quickly as soldiers leave to go help their families and friends. Soldiers are not machines. Without power and information they are not just going to sit around.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:40 PM   #104
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And he managed to do so in less than 15 years in a civilized society through "peaceful means" and without having to rely on a catastrophe or apocalyptic event to take place, merely by scapegoating and preying on the fears and insecurities of his followers. Once he got a bit of power, he began consolidating it and systematically eliminating his enemies and their ability to fight back (by throwing key opponents in concentration camps, silencing the press, and by organized brutality).

So it's not like there's no precedent...
Not to disagree with your point, but Germany had recently lost a war, was socked with humiliating and costly reparations and the entire world was in the Great Depression. He used all that to gain power.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:45 PM   #105
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And all rule is ultimately by fear. Even in a democracy, the reason most people obey most laws is not because they are perfect citizens (or, not only because), it is because they fear the consequences if they break the law.

So, none of your justifications make sense. The question remains. If Monroe is able to rule the whole region, then why did the much better equipped and trained police and military of the US not do so? Especially when they had the existing government backing going for them. It is absurd that the US patriots are considered rebels now. Completely unbelievable.
Who are you going to fear more, a soldier/cop who will arrest you if you steal food or a militia man who will slaughter your entire family?
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:16 PM   #106
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For some reason I have faith that police officers would be dedicated to their duties beyond "a week or two." Call me crazy.
You are crazy. I really don't think you grasp the magnitude of disruption this is. No electricity, no communication. None of these would be resolved nor any idea what happened. One day maybe? Once you walk home to your family that first night are you going to wake up and walk back to work?

I think your take on police officers and military soldiers is completely unrealistic. Even the ones who stuck it out would give up quickly. No communication, no real travel, chaos on the streets.

You really underestimate the survival instinct people have. It probably took 15 months just for survivors to get to a place where they had their basic needs met.

I have a lot of military members in my family and firefighters and I doubt any of them would just be hanging out in downtown Chicago trying to police things while not having any idea if their family is safe.

In fact soldiers and cops would be the most equipped to get their families out of the cities safely.

After fourteen days of a blackout with no communication and millions of dead people, nobody is staying around to protect the non existent United States.

Food. Shelter and water and security are primary goals for everybody. I don't see anyway with these drastic of circumstances that all these things don't collapse almost instantly.

You may have small groups of cops and soldiers who join up with their friends and provide for their families but that comes first second and third before reporting for duty. Soldiers and police officers are just people. Most of them do what they do for a paycheck.

They idea that any of these groups would remain intact for any period of time is just misplaced
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:35 PM   #107
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Food. Shelter and water and security are primary goals for everybody. I don't see anyway with these drastic of circumstances that all these things don't collapse almost instantly.

You may have small groups of cops and soldiers who join up with their friends and provide for their families but that comes first second and third before reporting for duty. Soldiers and police officers are just people. Most of them do what they do for a paycheck.

They idea that any of these groups would remain intact for any period of time is just misplaced
This makes a lot of sense.

Also DreadPirateRob’s scenario makes a lot of sense, as do many others. After a month of no reliable food source, or information of any kind from the government, many people (not all) will say phuck the US!! I have to survive by any means necessary!
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #108
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This makes a lot of sense.

Also DreadPirateRob’s scenario makes a lot of sense, as do many others. After a month of no reliable food source, or information of any kind from the government, many people (not all) will say phuck the US!! I have to survive by any means necessary!
Not according to john4200 - he says I make no sense at all.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:42 PM   #109
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Not to disagree with your point, but Germany had recently lost a war, was socked with humiliating and costly reparations and the entire world was in the Great Depression. He used all that to gain power.
I know all that. Post-WWI Germans probably considered those events catastrophic, but I was more talking along the lines of an event that caused society to break down to its very basic levels of survival.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #110
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I didn't respond because it was a non-answer. It makes no sense.
Just because you cannot comprehend it or it doesn't fit with your worldview does not mean that it doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:44 PM   #111
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You are missing my point. The government ceased to exist when the power went out. There is no command and control system in place without communications. How would the commanding officer of a military base in the Chicago coordinate with Washington which is days or weeks ride away?
He doesn't choose to accept that.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:28 PM   #112
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Just watched it. Not as interesting as the discussion here, but not as long-winded either.

When are they going to get back to pretending to be sci-fi?
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:45 AM   #113
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I noticed that when Maggie opens her phone, the date and timed are displayed. Does an iPhone have to sync with a network to know the date/time? And wouldn't the battery be long dead after 15 years?
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:47 AM   #114
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I noticed that when Maggie opens her phone, the date and timed are displayed. Does an iPhone have to sync with a network to know the date/time? And wouldn't the battery be long dead after 15 years?
Watching tv must be mentally exhausting for you
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:52 AM   #115
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You are missing my point.
No, you are the one missing the point. I read what you wrote. Some is correct, much is incorrect. But that is irrelevant to the fact that it does not explain the inconsistency of why Monroe is able to rule while none of the established government police and military from 15 years ago were able to adapt to provide some amount of order. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:53 AM   #116
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Just because you cannot comprehend it or it doesn't fit with your worldview does not mean that it doesn't make sense.
Actually, it does. You wrote something about order out of chaos that made no sense. The fact that is does not make sense has nothing to do with my worldview. You just posted nonsense.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:54 AM   #117
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I don't have an iPhone but it could conceivably get the date and time from GPS satellites if they were still working.

Lithium ion batteries probably would have self-discharged in a year or less. Most have a low (and high) voltage protection circuit. Once a battery discharges below a certain voltage level, the circuit kicks in and won't allow the battery to be recharged. A lithium ion battery that has sat for too long below a certain voltage will deteriorate and become dangerous to recharge.

The battery might last that long if it was kept in a partially-charged state by receiving maintenance charges every few months.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:27 AM   #118
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I noticed that when Maggie opens her phone, the date and timed are displayed. Does an iPhone have to sync with a network to know the date/time? And wouldn't the battery be long dead after 15 years?
None of the science or technology on this show makes any sense. How is the amulet that turned on the iPhone and music, powered up?

Also, that lady (Grace) was communicating with a powered up modem over what network? Remember, supposedly there’s no power except near the amulet. I just choose to believe it's techo-magic for now until they tell us more in future episodes

I do wish someone with an amulet would activate it and then use a cattle prod on Charlie- she’s annoying.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:36 AM   #119
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It's curious to me that the militia was using flintlocks. Wouldn't those be hard to find, (other than in a movie armory)? Maybe this has already been discussed, but why aren't they using more readily available modern weapons?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:43 AM   #120
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Another thing that bugs me is how can anyone belong to a militia where your CO uses your life to deplete the bullet inventory of your enemy.

Isn't that how a CO usually falls on a knife, 10 or 12 times?
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