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Old 09-09-2012, 06:43 AM   #1
cheesesteak
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Doctor Who "Dinosaurs On A Spaceship" 9/8/2012

Did the Doctor commit murder at the end? Was it self defense?

I kept waiting for the Doctor to use the sonic screwdriver on the two robots.

I like Rory's dad. He can tag along every once in a while. Not so much for Nefi and the big game hunter.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:09 AM   #2
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Did the Doctor commit murder at the end? Was it self defense?
I would say it is an extreme case of the "letting somebody die because of his own decisions" thing that the Doctor has done in the past...

Who "played" the robots? I got the impression that if I were more up on British pop culture, I would know them.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:04 AM   #3
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Did the Doctor commit murder at the end? Was it self defense?
Most certainly murder. Granted he had to deflect the missiles somehow, but Solomon didn't have to be on the ship.

I did like Nefi and the hunter. It would actually be interesting to get a big historical figure as a companion.

And last thought, it is painfully obvious that Amy and Rory don't work anymore as companions. There is no sense of wonder or excitement anymore, and perhaps that's the reason for the queen and the hunter, and Rory's dad, to bring some of it back.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:46 AM   #4
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Most certainly murder.
Most certainly NOT murder, since the Doctor didn't kill him. He just chose not to save him.

There are lawyers here who could outline possible charges. Manslaughter? But I think you still have to actually kill the guy or directly cause his death. Negligent homicide?
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:13 AM   #5
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And last thought, it is painfully obvious that Amy and Rory don't work anymore as companions. There is no sense of wonder or excitement anymore, and perhaps that's the reason for the queen and the hunter, and Rory's dad, to bring some of it back.
I think they were written that way on purpose. At the end, the Doctor's rearin' to go, where do we go next? And both Amy & Rory say, "Home. We want to go home, for a few months anyway." Setting the stage for an exit to where they're tired, we're tired, and the Doctor's tired and finds someone better suited.

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Old 09-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #6
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Most certainly NOT murder, since the Doctor didn't kill him. He just chose not to save him.

There are lawyers here who could outline possible charges. Manslaughter? But I think you still have to actually kill the guy or directly cause his death. Negligent homicide?
It's more than a case of the Doctor choosing not to save Solomon. The Doctor took actions that he knew would result in Solomon's death. It was because of the Doctor the missiles were directed at Solomon's ship in the first place.

Not that Solomon didn't get what was coming to him of course. He admitted to murdering a shipful of Silurians, threatened to kill the others directly, then left them for dead by the missiles (which he was NOT responsible for having directed at the Silurian ship).

IANAL, and don't know what the correct term is. Laws on murder and similar vary from state to state in the US anyway, not to mention country to country. We'd need to check with the Shadow Proclamation.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:24 AM   #7
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I would say it is an extreme case of the "letting somebody die because of his own decisions" thing that the Doctor has done in the past...

Who "played" the robots? I got the impression that if I were more up on British pop culture, I would know them.
David Mitchell & Robert Webb, who have had their own shows "Peep Show" & "That Mitchell & Webb Look" both of which were carried at a time by BBC America.

David Mitchell has also appeared in TCF by way of an YouTube posting of a section of his online video show "David Mitchell's Soapbox" where he rants about the current corruption of "Couldn't care less".

Here is the post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...11#post9180311

Here is the video.
David Mitchell's Soap Box, Dear America


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Old 09-09-2012, 11:10 AM   #8
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Most certainly NOT murder, since the Doctor didn't kill him. He just chose not to save him.

There are lawyers here who could outline possible charges. Manslaughter? But I think you still have to actually kill the guy or directly cause his death. Negligent homicide?
He did put the tracking device into Solomon's ship, and left Solomon there. It sounds premeditated and not justifiable to me as he could have sent the ship on auto pilot. Had they started that the ship could only move with Solomon inside then it should have been self defense. But IANAL.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:20 AM   #9
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Oh, I don't think it was self-defense. It was clearly some form of homicide.

I just don't think it meets the standard for murder, which is the word that was used earlier. But we probably need an actual lawyer to explain what exactly he would be guilty of.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:32 AM   #10
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He told Solomon what was going to happen. Solomon was mobile at the time. He could have left.

Besides, is execution murder? Did the USA murder Timothy McVeigh?

The Doctor gave Solomon several chances to play nice. Every time, Solomon answered with an attack or physical threat. Even though the Doctor knew all his friends would be safe as Solomon's only real weapons were easily defeated.

Solomon was pretty stupid though. He killed a dinosaur thinking that to save a dinosaur the Doctor would give up a human and his friend to boot? The old saying. Solomon knew the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Two things before I comment on the episode overall. One, really thought Solomon meant the TARDIS rather than Nefi. Two, the Doctor did not show up on the scan. Either it thought he was dead (odd since it knew Nefi) or Oswin wiped more than the Dalek data banks. The Doctor did smile like things were as he expected though.

Overall, the episode was rushed and crowded. Nefi was there for her value but why the big game hunter AND Brian? The Doctor only works with a gang if it is all companions and even then, not often or well. They attempted a lighthearted romp and just got pretty much a mess. There was no time to connect to all the people.

After a great opener, a definite missed shot.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:42 AM   #11
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A lot of bad guys end up getting dead after messing with the Doctor but his involvement isn't usually so blatant. People will probably know of other incidents but this one surprised me.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:10 PM   #12
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A lot of bad guys end up getting dead after messing with the Doctor but his involvement isn't usually so blatant. People will probably know of other incidents but this one surprised me.
Yeah. I guess drowning a whole nest of Racnoss including the queen wasn't so obvious.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:45 PM   #13
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I'm a lawyer, so I guess I'll weigh in. First, I'll comment that I didn't particularly care for the episode. I thought it felt more juvenile and ham-fisted and cringe-worthy than most of the current-era episodes have been. Really, a Doctor Who joke about balls? Almost the whole time watching, I was thinking to myself "this is just... bad." Normally I love Doctor Who, so this was a new feeling for me. Then, after a whole episode devoted to this juvenile stuff* (*I recognize that Doctor Who has a storied history as a show for not just adults), it was pretty jarring to see the Doctor come as close as I can recall to outright murder. Talk about a tonal shift. But it wasn't a shift that was recognized in the episode; its import was just kind of glossed over. So that was the final nail, for me. I hope next week is better.

Was it murder? Maybe I'm not the right type of lawyer to answer that: I haven't dealt with criminal law since I last studied for the bar, about 15 years ago. The common law definition of murder is "intentional killing of another human being with malice aforethought." But there are different degrees of murder. To me, this seems most like "depraved heart" murder, which would be categorized in many states as second degree murder. "Depraved heart murder" is also known in some places as depraved-indifference murder. It occurs when a death results from someone's "callous disregard for human life." The example I remember from law school is someone firing a gun at a passing train. You may not be aiming at a specific person on the train, but if someone dies as the result of your shot, you've still murdered them. An example of depraved heart murder from a different show (Breaking Bad - season 2 spoiler) would be

Spoiler:
Jane's death


..though that one was subject of much thread debate, as well.

It strikes me that the Doctor set up a "wonderful plan" with (at a minimum) callous disregard for the fact that it was going to mean the death of the collector. Or, being less charitable, he did it intentionally.

Having said that, my heart's not really in a big debate over the point, so if one of the other lawyers or IANALs on the forum wants to disagree, have at it. All I know is that the Doctor that I saw last night was not the Doctor I've grown to love. If the Doctor causes a death, especially given his history, I expect to see it weigh very heavily upon his soul. I doubt we'll see any future episode where the Doctor gives the collector a further thought. (Not that I'm necessarily defending the collector, here. He did have it coming).
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #14
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Yeah. I guess drowning a whole nest of Racnoss including the queen wasn't so obvious.
Yeah, but they were spiders. Being a spider is an instant death sentence in my house.


I agree that the balls double entendre was jarring.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:05 PM   #15
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Most certainly NOT murder, since the Doctor didn't kill him. He just chose not to save him.

There are lawyers here who could outline possible charges. Manslaughter? But I think you still have to actually kill the guy or directly cause his death. Negligent homicide?
He diverted missiles that were targeting the main ship into the bad guy's ship.

Almost certainly murder but for a "necessity" defense, in that he could argue that killing that guy was necessary to save himself or others.

But it's not like the Doctor has ever been above murder when he thought it just. Off the top of my head, the Racnoss in The Runaway Bride comes to mind, and that wasn't just murder, but arguably genocide.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:10 PM   #16
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Sometimes, when the Doctor is really really mad, he leaves his enemies alive. Remember the voice-over at the end of "Family of Blood"?

Quote:
He never raised his voice. That was the worst thing... the fury of the Time Lord... and then we discovered why. Why this Doctor, who had fought with gods and demons, why he had run away from us and hidden. He was being kind... He wrapped my father in unbreakable chains forged in the heart of a dwarf star

[Shows Son of Mine's Father screaming wrapped in chains]

Son of Mine: He tricked my mother into the event horizon of a collapsing galaxy

[Shows Wife of Mine falling from the TARDIS' open doors into a bright light screaming]

Son of Mine: To be imprisoned there... forever. He still visits my sister, once a year, every year. I wonder if one day he might forgive her... but there she is. Can you see? He trapped her inside a mirror. Every mirror.

[shows a little girl peering out from a mirror]

Son of Mine: If ever you look at your reflection and see something move behind you just for a second, that's her. That's *always* her. As for me, I was suspended in time and the Doctor put me to work standing over the fields of England as their protector.

[Son of Mine suspended from a Scarecrow's crossbrace, the doctor puts a bag over his head]

Son of Mine: We wanted to live forever. So the Doctor made sure we did.

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Old 09-09-2012, 01:10 PM   #17
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BTW... loved the nod to HAL and 2001 with the robots singing "Daisy" when the Doctor disabled them.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:11 PM   #18
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Sometimes, when the Doctor is really really mad, he leaves his enemies alive. Remember the voice-over at the end of "Family of Blood"?
Yeah... that was badass.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:17 PM   #19
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Well, the train example is different because if you fire a gun and the bullet kills somebody, you are still directly killing somebody (even if that wasn't your direct intent). My understanding is that for it to be murder, you have to directly kill somebody. And yes, I'm being pedantic, but the law is meant to be pedantic.

But I do agree that it was a jarring moment, both because it came at the end of a basically silly episode (and I liked the silliness of it) and because despite precedent the Doctor doesn't often take such an active role in his opponents' demise. It reminded me somewhat of the David Tennant episode (his first) where he causes the death of the Sycorax leader (more directly, IIRC, than here). But in that case he gave the Sycorax a choice, and it was because the Sycorax chose to break his word and attack the Doctor that the Doctor killed him. In this case, Solomon had already made the choices that ultimately led to his death. It would have been better, I think, if he still had the chance to do the right thing and survive.

E.g., Solomon announces his intent to flee, abandoning the rest of them on the Silurian ark. The Doctor tells him that he has a plan to deal with the missiles. Solomon gets in his ship and flees. He sees the beacon right before the missiles blow him out of space. That would have been more squarely within established characterization for the Doctor, as in the Sycorax example. But I would have been happier still if such a thing happened in a different episode. Moffat seems to be developing a kind of tone deafness; in the past, he's been better at balancing light and serious elements. Here, it seemed wildly out of place.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:41 PM   #20
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Most certainly NOT murder, since the Doctor didn't kill him. He just chose not to save him.

There are lawyers here who could outline possible charges. Manslaughter? But I think you still have to actually kill the guy or directly cause his death. Negligent homicide?
IANAL, but I'd have to say this is definitely murder. This wasn't a choice not to save the guy. The Doctor actively locked the guy into his ship knowing the ship would be destroyed because of an action performed by the Doctor. Add to that intent (knowledge that the guy would die) and motive (vengeance) and it would be enough to convict the Doctor of murder in any courtroom. Maybe not first degree, but at least second degree.

As was said, not like he guy didn't deserve it considering he committed genocide.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:44 PM   #21
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BTW... loved the nod to HAL and 2001 with the robots singing "Daisy" when the Doctor disabled them.
I LOLed at that, and my son then wanted to know what was so funny.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:47 PM   #22
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.

But it's not like the Doctor has ever been above murder when he thought it just. Off the top of my head, the Racnoss in The Runaway Bride comes to mind, and that wasn't just murder, but arguably genocide.
True, but he did make an offer, well ultimatum, to the Racnoss queen to move her and children to another planet. She refused.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:00 PM   #23
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IANAL, but I'd have to say this is definitely murder.
According to whos's definition? what jurisdiction?
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:03 PM   #24
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Loved Mitchell & Webb as the Robots, but at first I thought they were Moss & Roy from The IT Crowd.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:09 PM   #25
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Yeah, but they were spiders. Being a spider is an instant death sentence in my house.

I agree that the balls double entendre was jarring.
I hope you are joking.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:10 PM   #26
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BTW... loved the nod to HAL and 2001 with the robots singing "Daisy" when the Doctor disabled them.
Yes. A high point. Thanks for posting that.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #27
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True, but he did make an offer, well ultimatum, to the Racnoss queen to move her and children to another planet. She refused.
How many Daleks did the Doctor kill last week?
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:12 PM   #28
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True, but he did make an offer, well ultimatum, to the Racnoss queen to move her and children to another planet. She refused.
He made several offers to Solomon. Or only the one within seconds counts?
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:14 PM   #29
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According to whos's definition? what jurisdiction?
According to the legal definition, in the U.S.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #30
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How many Daleks did the Doctor kill last week?
Another example. The Doctor kills a lot. Always has. It seems folks are upset because this was a human. That is what this is coming down to. Not killing per se.

Anyway, murder is a legal thing. No law where he was. In fact, as a member of UNIT, he could be considered the law in this situation.

Can we talk instead about how off the episode was? This murder discussion is actually kind of dumb as thus is not the first time the Doctor killed someone.
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