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Old 09-07-2012, 11:23 PM   #1
FixItPete
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Arrow Is my Tivo HD dead for good? Got a new hard drive... and S.M.A.R.T. says...

I'm at my wits end. The original 160mb drive was giving lots of trouble (or was it??) so everything I read pointed to the hard drive.

I went and got a pre-loaded 2TB drive and installed it... and here is what it does:

I can get it to boot, I can get it to the point where it'll run the Guided Setup... I can get the M-Card paired, etc...

Bur for some reason when all is said and done and I go back to the Main Menu -- it will show me the main menu for about 3-4 seconds and then it reboots.

So... I ran a bunch of Kickstarts... nothing...

I finally rant S.M.A.R.T. and I got a "Pass" on the first thing and then a "Fail 7" for the next 3 things. When I rant the test again, I got it to pass one more of them, but then failed two anyway... when I tried to run it a third time, it failed 3 again...

So... let me have it. Is this drive bad too? Is the HD trashed? I've tried it with the coax in, out, with the ethernet in, out, I've tried it all... nothing... I can leave it on the "Complete CableCARD Setup" screen and it doesn't lock up and the "search lights" move around and all... Same thing for "Important Message" -- I can stay there and it's fine... but as soon as I go to "Tivo Central"... Hello, "Welcome! Powering up..." cycle and then back to square one...

Ugh. Please help. Bad second drive? Bad Tivo? More tests.

What say you gurus?

Thanks,
Pete

Last edited by FixItPete : 09-07-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:07 AM   #2
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Thought I'd post up more info... hopefully somebody can help.

I'm trying it again right now...
1) Welcome Screen
2) After a few minute "Almost There. Just a few minutes more..."
3) Then the "tivo dog" video...
4) I press Tivo button
5) I get Main Menu (Tivo Central)
6) After a few seconds (3 or 4?) it goes back to "Welcome! Powering Up..." and starts all over again.

I've tried it the M-Card in and out, I've tried it with different cable combos in and out. I've tried making sure the cables going from the drive to the motherboard are seated well, clean, ok, etc.... nothing.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:55 AM   #3
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I should add:

If the M-Card is out, it will let me do Guided Setup... etc. However as soon as I get to the "Tivo Central" screen it reboots...

???
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:13 AM   #4
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You haven't mentioned the power supply. It may be failing due to "capacitor plague". Look for even slight bulging of the tops of the can-shaped (electrolytic) caps, including the ones hidden under the heat sink. Also check the voltages of the red (5V), yellow(12V) and orange (3.3V) wires relative to the black (ground) wire at the plug where the wires from the PS plug into the mother board. Don't disconnect the plug, just probe from the back side where the wires go into it. WARNING: SHOCK HAZARD.

If the PS is not the problem then the usual recommended procedure would be to hook up the new HDD to your PC and run the mfr's extended diagnostic tests. However, since you purchased a pre-imaged HDD, you should contact the seller first.

Did you run KS tests on the 250GB drive prior to removing it? If so, how did those results compare to what you're getting with the new drive? Note that KS54 is the one you should be running. I believe some of the other KS tests modify the drive, which might not be acceptable warranty-wise.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:14 AM   #5
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You still have not ruled out the new drive being bad because it fails the SMART test I suggest you download the drives manufactures boot from CD diagnostics and test or have someone test the drive in a PC.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:19 PM   #6
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfl View Post
You haven't mentioned the power supply. It may be failing due to "capacitor plague". Look for even slight bulging of the tops of the can-shaped (electrolytic) caps, including the ones hidden under the heat sink. Also check the voltages of the red (5V), yellow(12V) and orange (3.3V) wires relative to the black (ground) wire at the plug where the wires from the PS plug into the mother board. Don't disconnect the plug, just probe from the back side where the wires go into it. WARNING: SHOCK HAZARD.

If the PS is not the problem then the usual recommended procedure would be to hook up the new HDD to your PC and run the mfr's extended diagnostic tests. However, since you purchased a pre-imaged HDD, you should contact the seller first.

Did you run KS tests on the 250GB drive prior to removing it? If so, how did those results compare to what you're getting with the new drive? Note that KS54 is the one you should be running. I believe some of the other KS tests modify the drive, which might not be acceptable warranty-wise.
Power supply checks out as per your parameters.
I did not do KS on the original drive.
I will run KS54 on the old drive and report back.

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You still have not ruled out the new drive being bad because it fails the SMART test I suggest you download the drives manufactures boot from CD diagnostics and test or have someone test the drive in a PC.
Can you tell me what that means? Manufacturer's boot, CD diag, etc. I can put the drive in a shell and test it in there... could you clarify? Is that what you want? Is there a specific test??
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:32 PM   #7
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You still have not ruled out the new drive being bad because it fails the SMART test I suggest you download the drives manufactures boot from CD diagnostics and test or have someone test the drive in a PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FixItPete View Post
Can you tell me what that means? Manufacturer's boot, CD diag, etc. I can put the drive in a shell and test it in there... could you clarify? Is that what you want? Is there a specific test??
The answer is what Homeuser suggested, download the appropriate diagnostic program from the drive manufacturers website and test the new drive in a PC, there's a possibility the SMART test failures are real and the drive is sick, it happens. I would start with their quick test and advanced to their long.

I'm not sure why this is throwing you for a loop, it's a pretty easy and standard thing to do for a reported sick drive, even one that's "new"
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:36 PM   #8
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Downloaded "Data Lifeguard" tool from WD. Running now.

Also, caps. on power supply are not bulging...

Old drive wouldn't even show up on Data Lifeguard. New drive shows up... waiting for results from test...
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
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Ok. I did the quick test. The result was that the test found some "bad sectors that may be repairable"...

Is that normal? Should I repair or do I risk losing the data that makes tivo "work"???
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:41 PM   #10
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Test Option: QUICK TEST
Model Number: WDC WD20 EADS-22R6B0
Unit Serial Number: 
Firmware Number:
Capacity: 2000.40 GB
SMART Status: Not Available
Test Result: FAIL
Test Error Code: 08-
Test Time: 13:40:53, September 08, 2012
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #11
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Running the extended test now... not sure how it takes. I gave the people that sold me the drive this link so they can follow along. I'm sure in the end it will be all good... just want her up and running again.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:05 PM   #12
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Running the extended test now... not sure how it takes. I gave the people that sold me the drive this link so they can follow along. I'm sure in the end it will be all good... just want her up and running again.
I would not keep a new drive that failed the mfg diagnostic, unless I had no choice but to(all things considered).

Short test failure is red flag enough for a new drive.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FixItPete View Post
Test Option: QUICK TEST
Model Number: WDC WD20 EADS-22R6B0
Unit Serial Number: 
Firmware Number:
Capacity: 2000.40 GB
SMART Status: Not Available
Test Result: FAIL
Test Error Code: 08-
Test Time: 13:40:53, September 08, 2012
That shouldn't be, are you using an adapter or could you have SMART turned off in your BIOS?
But I also agree with the others, failing diagnostics on a new drive means I talk to the person that sold it to me for a replacement.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:08 PM   #14
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I'm using an Sabrent enclosure (USB)...
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:53 PM   #15
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I'm using an Sabrent enclosure (USB)...
Can you run the S.M.A.R.T test on a USB connection ?? I normally use a direct connection to my PC.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:58 PM   #16
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HDDScan S.M.A.R.T. Report
Model: WDC WD20EADS-22R6B0
Firmware: 01.00A01
Serial: WD-WCAVY4641543
LBA: 3907029168

Report By: HDDScan for Windows version 3.3
Report Date: 9/8/2012 4:56:07 PM


Num Attribute Name Value Worst Raw(hex) Threshold

001 Raw Read Error Rate 200 200 0000000000-04F3 051

003 Spin Up Time 152 150 0000000000-24A7 021

004 Start/Stop Count 100 100 0000000000-0019 000

005 Reallocation Sector Count 200 200 0000000000-0000 140

007 Seek Error Rate 100 253 0000000000-0000 000

009 Power-On Hours Count 088 088 0000000000-22FC 000

010 Spin Retry Count 100 253 0000000000-0000 000

011 Recalibration Retries 100 253 0000000000-0000 000

012 Device Power Cycle Count 100 100 0000000000-0018 000

192 Emergency Retract Count 200 200 0000000000-0016 000

193 Load/unload Cycle Count 113 113 0000000003-FFCA 000

194 HDA Temperature 110 107 42 C 000

196 Reallocation Event Count 200 200 0000000000-0000 000

197 Current Pending Errors Count 200 200 0000000000-0052 000

198 Uncorrectable Errors Count 200 200 0000000000-0006 000

199 UltraDMA CRC Errors 200 200 0000000000-0000 000

200 Multi Zone Error Rate 200 200 0000000000-000A

I downloaded HDD Scan. Above are the results of S.M.A.R.T. I made the items that have a "!" in front of them in the report in red...

Bad?
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:03 PM   #17
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The guy is sending me out a new one... but still... hopefully it's not a bad batch of drives and the new one only lasts a short time...
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:04 PM   #18
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But the above test you were still using the USB port, try this on a good drive and see if you get the same errors, could it be from the USB adapter ??
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #19
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I get a fail when I do a KS54, and I get a fail when I do it in the USB sleeve... I don't have a good drive handy...
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:25 AM   #20
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How was the drive packaged when you got it? Was it wrapped with foam or put in plastic spacers in the center of an inner box, then put in a shipping box? Or was it just in a bag tossed in with some packing peanuts and/or bubblewrap?

But given how OEM drives are packaged, they can be damaged on the trip from the retailer to the guy who prepared the drive. Even the best computer stores don't seem to know how to protect OEM drives...
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:55 AM   #21
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Foil bag>Bubble>Fill>Box...

Hopefully all will be ok with the replacement...
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:35 AM   #22
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Ok. I did the quick test. The result was that the test found some "bad sectors that may be repairable"...

Is that normal? Should I repair or do I risk losing the data that makes tivo "work"???
Glad you're getting a new drive. I have never seen that "repair" option work.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:44 AM   #23
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Glad you're getting a new drive. I have never seen that "repair" option work.
I have seen it work well enough to get that last bit of data off of a dying drive, but that's it, so in the long run it's just a last ditch data recovery attempt, in this case with it being new, I'd not use the drive.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:16 AM   #24
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That repair option works - remember, for a drive to replace a dead sector, it needs to be aware of it (which is done by reading it enough that the drive "gives up" and returns error). This marks the sector as needing replacement. however, the drive will NOT replace the sector (in case you want to try some data recovery software). To actually get it to replace the sector, you must write it with new data, so the drive can write the new data to the new sector (the drive will not attempt data recovery - the only way it can replace the sector is when you write new data to that sector so the drive knows you don't care about the old contents anymore).

Usually an "extended test" (which reads every sector) is run to map out the bad sectors, then a "write zeroes" is run which remaps every bad sector to spares.

Of course, for most drives, this happens pretty transparently during normal operations, only when you start seeing bad sectors should the drive be replaced (because the drive ran out).

You should never ever get bad sectors on a new drive - the initial set were mapped out at the factory to begin with, and proper transport should ensure that no additional ones are created before the drive enters use.

That packaging for the drive isn't good (most manufacturers will reject a drive submitted to RMA like that), however practically speaking, it'll be sufficient most of the time, as long as it's the ONLY drive. If there are two together, all bets are off (the drives bang off each other and that severely damages them).

Unfortunately, it looks like you got the short end of that stick - the guy you bought the drive from probably got his drives that way (probably 5-10 drives wrapped together in bubblewrap). It's trivial to apply the image and not detect the damage.

And hey, I've seen drives shipped to me in a bubblewrap *envelope*. Unsurprisingly, the drive was producing dead sectors all over the place.
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:00 AM   #25
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Thanks for the feedback! I'll let you know how it goes... and that's a good point... even if the guy who shipped it to me packs it well this time -- you have no way of knowing how it was shipped to him originally (or how many generations of shippers there were along the supply chain!).

I suppose the best way to deal with it is to check BEFORE I install it and see what happens. This time he's going to test it before he ships it as well as pack it more aggressively. I'll report back.

I understand that accidents happen -- so we'll see how it all plays out.

I'm very appreciative for all the help here!

Thanks!!

Pete
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:49 PM   #26
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Thanks for the feedback! I'll let you know how it goes... and that's a good point... even if the guy who shipped it to me packs it well this time -- you have no way of knowing how it was shipped to him originally (or how many generations of shippers there were along the supply chain!).

I suppose the best way to deal with it is to check BEFORE I install it and see what happens. This time he's going to test it before he ships it as well as pack it more aggressively. I'll report back.

I understand that accidents happen -- so we'll see how it all plays out.

I'm very appreciative for all the help here!

Thanks!!

Pete
Good idea to test before putting in a Tivo. 20% of hard drives show up DOA. They just don't like to be jostled around, no matter how well you pack them.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:10 PM   #27
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Good idea to test before putting in a Tivo. 20% of hard drives show up DOA. They just don't like to be jostled around, no matter how well you pack them.
20%?? I think my rate is around 2% for the 150 to 200 hard drives I've used over the last twenty years.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:19 PM   #28
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20%?? I think my rate is around 2% for the 150 to 200 hard drives I've used over the last twenty years.

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I have purchased about 600 drives over the last 6 years, I had about 6 or 7 DOA drives from Newegg, and we know how badly they pack drives.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:29 PM   #29
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AFAIK, there is no facility for SMART data to be sent over USB. It has to be directly connected.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:56 AM   #30
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AFAIK, there is no facility for SMART data to be sent over USB. It has to be directly connected.
Interesting... then why do I still get a fail when I test it via KickStart54?

Also, what about the errors when I test it via USB using WD Lifeguard?

Are you saying the drive is OK?

Clarify please...

Thanks,
Pete
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