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Old 09-20-2012, 08:32 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
A wooden sword? Made with a lathe? WTF are you talking about?

I am talking about a steel sword. And you certainly don't make it with a lathe.
Indeed....here you go.

Actually, you might want to go ahead and print out all the pages in this link and laminate them for future, post-apocalyptic reference.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:34 PM   #242
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I'm not talking about wooden swords. I'm saying that if woodworkers primarily use electrically powered tools that it's a very good bet that metalworkers aren't getting the job done with just a giant fire, an anvil, and a really big hammer.
The difference is that with woodworking, the techniques remain pretty much the same, regardless of whether you're using powered or manual tools (cut, drill, sand, chisel, etc.). With metalworking, I think most of what happens today is milling and grinding, which you wouldn't do at all in a manual world.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:42 PM   #243
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With metalworking, I think most of what happens today is milling and grinding, which you wouldn't do at all in a manual world.
Let's go back to my original point.

There are not a lot of people currently hand-crafting blades from scratch without using electric-powered tools.

The learning curve to go from a hunk of metal to a functional sword (and by functional, I mean, usuable as a sword, not a heavy shaped chunk of metal that makes a decent club) using pre-Industrial methods is very steep relative to other handcrafts.

Since Americans don't tend to stockpile swords AND they're crazy-hard to make without having already developed the skill, I think that swords would be in really short supply in the post-apocalyptic Midwest.

That's all.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:44 PM   #244
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...but when you people are ready to go back to the clothing manufacture rants, let me know. I can go from a cotton seed to a finished pair of socks single-handedly and I have a lot of pent-up frustration from watching Rumpelstiltskin in Once Upon a Time.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:00 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Polcamilla View Post
Let's go back to my original point.

There are not a lot of people currently hand-crafting blades from scratch without using electric-powered tools.

The learning curve to go from a hunk of metal to a functional sword (and by functional, I mean, usuable as a sword, not a heavy shaped chunk of metal that makes a decent club) using pre-Industrial methods is very steep relative to other handcrafts.

Since Americans don't tend to stockpile swords AND they're crazy-hard to make without having already developed the skill, I think that swords would be in really short supply in the post-apocalyptic Midwest.
The problem is that your point is wrong. As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools. Welding equipment is also useful (but not required). Sure, a grinder is easier if you have electricity, but there are manual grinders, water-powered grinders, you could even rig up a steam-powered one if you were setting up a large blade grinding shop for a militia.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:07 PM   #246
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As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools.
Yeah, I see people making swords and stuff anytime I go to a ren faire... I'm sure that it would not be a problem for people who really had to make swords without power to make them.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:12 PM   #247
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The problem is that your point is wrong. As I already said, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths in the US who can make swords (and even professional blacksmiths, but they are not so numerous). There are lots of books on the subject, for all skill levels. The basic tools do not require electricity. You need a forge, an anvil, hammer, tongs, files and grinding tools. Welding equipment is also useful (but not required). Sure, a grinder is easier if you have electricity, but there are manual grinders, water-powered grinders, you could even rig up a steam-powered one if you were setting up a large blade grinding shop for a militia.
The information is plentiful NOW, but obviously not in a post-internet Apocalypse. And there are a decent number of hobbyist blacksmiths, but really, NOT a lot of hobbyist swordsmiths. This is a world where DOCTORS are in short supply, but there are bands of roving pre-Industrial blacksmiths?

Sure, there are gonna be SOME and a major power is going to control the weapon-producing resources. But every third person having a sword (and not a gun) is wildly improbable.

Here is another pretty good article on how to make a basic, functional sword. It even gives a very readily available source for your steel. Feel free to print it out, use it to make a sword, use that sword to defend your life, and then come back and report on how well that went for you.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:20 PM   #248
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Yeah, I see people making swords and stuff anytime I go to a ren faire... I'm sure that it would not be a problem for people who really had to make swords without power to make them.
Really? What faires?

I ask because at ours, we have ONE working forge (that produces horseshoes, nails, and the like) and a guy who does glass blowing and trained in Venice. We have leathercrafts and needle felting and spinning and weaving and paper making and period cooking and baking and illumination and drafting and a small amount of woodworking and a jewlery smith who makes pins, brooches, and small coins (this guy gave my 8 yr. old a hacksaw and a chunk of brass for an afternoon but won't let her touch the hand-powered drill because of the risk of injury). We have two booths that SELL swords and daggers, but we have absolutely no one onsite that makes them. Of the two sellers, one makes unfunctional decorative crap and the other has a 3-6 month turnaround time for a dagger.

I've only been to a handful of Renaissance Faires but a handful more historical sites doing recreation. I've seen muskets loaded and fired and I've seen blacksmiths doing decorative wrought iron. I have never, ever, ever seen anyone making a sword.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:25 PM   #249
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The information is plentiful NOW, but obviously not in a post-internet Apocalypse. And there are a decent number of hobbyist blacksmiths, but really, NOT a lot of hobbyist swordsmiths. This is a world where DOCTORS are in short supply, but there are bands of roving pre-Industrial blacksmiths?
Wrong again. As I said, there are plenty of books on the subject. But even that does not matter. As I have said twice already, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths who know how to make swords. It does not matter if they are master swordsmiths, they only need to make a sword that works for slicing and stabbing, not a work of art. And you don't need a lot of experts. One or two are fine to start. They can teach others.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:26 PM   #250
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I have never, ever, ever seen anyone making a sword.
Too bad. I have.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:33 PM   #251
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Wrong again. As I said, there are plenty of books on the subject. But even that does not matter. As I have said twice already, there are plenty of hobbyist and amateur blacksmiths who know how to make swords. It does not matter if they are master swordsmiths, they only need to make a sword that works for slicing and stabbing, not a work of art. And you don't need a lot of experts. One or two are fine to start. They can teach others.
When it's a potential deadly trip from the suburbs of Chicago to downtown?

Also, you keep saying "there are plenty". Okay. Who? Where? Show me. How many people are we talking about? What's the average per-capita swordsmith distribution in the US? Heck, what's the per-capita BLACKSMITH distribution?

Personally, I know more aerospace machinists than blacksmiths.

If I were the only person in 100 miles who could make swords and consequently, I'm armed and nobody else is, I'm gonna hole myself up and hack the limbs off anyone who comes and threatens me with a weapon less sophisticated than my own. I wouldn't be going from town to town sharing the magic of smithing for the pure joy of arming the masses.

I'm not talking about a work of art, either. I'm talking about something that doesn't snap in half in your face when you hit it against a tree trunk.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:34 PM   #252
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Really? What faires?
I have seen these guys doing forging at King Richard's Faire in MA. They give demonstrations and they also sell weapons there. There are a few other weapons vendors there as well. IIRC, King Richard's Faire requires all the vendors to sell handmade goods there.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:35 PM   #253
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Too bad. I have.
Oh, well thank you. That's a very constructive, interesting, and useful contribution to this discussion.


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Old 09-20-2012, 09:40 PM   #254
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I have seen these guys doing forging at King Richard's Faire in MA. They give demonstrations and they also sell weapons there. There are a few other weapons vendors there as well. IIRC, King Richard's Faire requires all the vendors to sell handmade goods there.
Okay, that's awesome!

And I really wish more "historical" events had that same rule. One of the reasons I like going to these is because there are opportunities to get a quality of goods that just cannot be found in shopping malls. By the 10th booth selling glittery nylon fairy wings, I've pretty much lost my faith in humanity.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:41 PM   #255
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If I were the only person in 100 miles who could make swords and consequently, I'm armed and nobody else is, I'm gonna hole myself up and hack the limbs off anyone who comes and threatens me with a weapon less sophisticated than my own. I wouldn't be going from town to town sharing the magic of smithing for the pure joy of arming the masses.
Well, we've already established that you have no clue how to make swords (a lathe? really??), so what you would do is hardly enlightening.

You do realize that it was mostly the militia that was well-armed, don't you? Were we not watching the same show?

It is certainly plausible that the militia found some people who know how to make swords. And there would certainly be other people around who could make swords and sell them for food or whatever. And there would be a fair number of blades made more than 15 years ago that people would be able to lay hands on. Although I find it hard to believe that swords would be so popular anyway. I would think guns would be the weapon of choice, with crossbows a distant second, and swords way down the list.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:45 PM   #256
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I wish the explained everything so it would be a one hour made for TV movie. Not.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:46 PM   #257
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If we watched on NBC, is this the right thread?

I think this show will piss me off. We'll never find out exactly what happened. They will never get around to telling us.

It would have been funny if "Gus" told the lady he used to own a chain of chicken restaurants.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:48 PM   #258
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Two things REALLY bugged me. The clothes. I was just ranting earlier today about how shoddy clothing construction/materials are now and they barely last a season. No way anything would last 15 years but there was a serious lack of anything homespun
Aren't tons of people dead?

If so, go into the houses that remain when your clothes wear out and get more clothes.. (and/or stores)
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:53 PM   #259
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One of the reasons I like going to these is because there are opportunities to get a quality of goods that just cannot be found in shopping malls.
Me too... I have an awesome Cross of the Goddess ring from Puzzle Rings by Pepi that I got there in 2000. It looks like this only in 14K gold:
.
I imagine it would cost me a lot more than $99 these days!

Actually, I bet big ren faire vendors would probably be able to do pretty well for themselves in a post apocalyptic no-electricity world!

I am not going to argue that there are a TON of people who know how to do blacksmithing, obviously it's not something that someone in every neighborhood does. But I think that in 15 years, people could probably figure things out... it's not like they have a ton of other stuff to do. I think it's unlikely that they'd end up with swords as fancy as the Bad Guys had, but maybe those were looted from a museum or something.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:53 PM   #260
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…and who paused and slow-moed through the computer screens at the end? Come on, you know you did.

Again, it was vaguely realistic techno mumbo jumbo, but they mixed in a lot of other stuff in the ATDT stuff.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:54 PM   #261
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Well, we've already established that you have no clue how to make swords (a lathe? really??), so what you would do is hardly enlightening.
You weren't reading what I wrote at all. I was talking about a lathe as one of the basic tools of pre-industrial production that, when not electrically powered, is a large, cumbersome, and dangerous piece of equipment.

I was in no way saying that you use a lathe to make a sword....only that modern woodworkers use electric tools and my understanding is that modern metalworkers do as well. In the case of metalwork, the electric tools mostly do the heavy lifting in the grinding, , shaping, honing, and finishing, so cut production time from weeks/months to days.

But whatever material you are working with, when you rely on an electric tool to work it and the electricity stops, the first thing you have to figure out is how to do that same job without the electric tool. That's a steep learning curve. Heck.....can you figure out how to iron your clothes without a plug-in iron*?

* note to others: I am in no way suggestion that one uses an iron to make swords. And if it WERE the Apocalypse, I would totally blow off the iron and be seen in rumpled clothing in public.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #262
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Actually, I bet big ren faire vendors would probably be able to do pretty well for themselves in a post apocalyptic no-electricity world!
...just as long as they didn't have to build their storefronts without Makitas.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:39 PM   #263
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...just as long as they didn't have to build their storefronts without Makitas.

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Old 09-21-2012, 06:56 AM   #264
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...What bugged me is that Wrigley Feld is in no way the first thing you'd see when you walked into Chicago. It's that 15 miles inland and only about 1 1/2 miles from the lake. It's not on the way from O'Hare to The Loop.

From Wrigley to The Loop is another 5 miles.

That hotel looked like the Intercontinental which is on Michigan Avenue a bit further north.

We just know that these goofs wanted to rustic up a Chicago Landmark and Wrigley Field served the purpose.
Soldier field would have been MUCH more plausible...it's right on the way to downtown if you're coming from the south/southeast...
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:03 AM   #265
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I said the power would go out as the Cubs were 2 outs away from beating the Red Sox at home in the bottom of the 4th in game 7, but then the sign said they won.
That would be a neat trick! Unless maybe they knew the apocalypse would come and were trying to avoid it by shortening the game?
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:34 AM   #266
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Thank PETA for that one. The rules regarding animals in filming are cumbersome at this point.
Actually, it's the American Humane Association’s Film & TV Unit

and the guidelines are publicly available if you're interested.

http://www.americanhumanefilmtv.org/...es2011WEB1.pdf
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:43 AM   #267
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Charlie looks to me like a younger, hotter, version of Hilary Swank. And so I will ignore the contrived story.

The son starting the whole shooting war was the most idiotic thing I've seen in a while. If he were my son, I would have shot him myself.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:55 AM   #268
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The son starting the whole shooting war was the most idiotic thing I've seen in a while. If he were my son, I would have shot him myself.
I agree wholeheartedly.

On the sword thing... I saw a documentary on PBS a few years ago on a Japanese master sword maker that was making a Samurai sword the old-fashioned way. He used nothing but hand tools and a hand-built forge to go from iron ore to sword. The sword he produced will fetch a selling price as big as some houses though.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:02 AM   #269
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Off off topic. How about that F15 that flew with only one wing? Proves that even a brick will fly with enough thrust..
The F-4 proved that a long time ago.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:09 AM   #270
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Isn't a sword part of a Marines dress uniform? Wouldn't a PX have a few of those laying around, and isn't the militia located on a military base?

Just saying.
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