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Old 01-10-2013, 04:35 PM   #151
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Cablevision has never had caps or throttling
Right. Comcast has 250gb cap.
Always mix the two up.
Thought all non fios had caps and Netflix
throttling. Co workers with cablevision
were always complaining about Netflix issues.
Must have been something else.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:38 PM   #152
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Is frontier fios possibly getting redbox?
Would fios not use the New cnd because
it doesn't want Netflix compete with redbox?

Why is cablevision doing this? Don't they
have caps and throttling for Netflix?
were they loosing too many customers and
decide to change?

So, now Netflix has same bit rates as Vudu?

Sorry, didn't realize I had so many questions
on one post.
Vudu 3bar HDX averages around 9Mb/s.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:25 PM   #153
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Right. Comcast has 250gb cap.
Always mix the two up.
Thought all non fios had caps and Netflix
throttling. Co workers with cablevision
were always complaining about Netflix issues.
Must have been something else.
Comcast's cap is currently suspended for most users while Comcast decides which of 2 new cap schemes they want to go with. Only users in the two trial towns still have a cap.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:02 PM   #154
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Comcast's cap is currently suspended for most users while Comcast decides which of 2 new cap schemes they want to go with. Only users in the two trial towns still have a cap.
Either way, neither company would be
getting my business .
did have cablevision once. Never again!
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #155
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Either way, neither company would be
getting my business .
did have cablevision once. Never again!
Cablevision is one of the best ISP's in the country... right behind fios in terms of speed and price
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:24 PM   #156
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The netflix client on the tivo is actually one of the best clients there is. Why ?

Because its the only client that I know that's able to play 1080p/24 streams with DD+ bitstream audio.

My ISP is in netflix superhd club. My Sony bdp-s790 netflixs client shows the superhd logo against certain titles. The tivo client doesn't

But, when the tivo switches to 1080p/24 it looks identical to the Sony x-high or superhd stream with the tivo getting the bonus 24 frames per second output.

So I prefer tivo over Sony.

Where tivo falls over is its ability to navigate the titles. It is slower than the Sony.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:08 AM   #157
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Because its the only client that I know that's able to play 1080p/24 streams with DD+ bitstream audio.
The 2012 Panasonics 3D BDPs can do that and have a full implementation of that UI, with skip-forward/back-by-3 in the browser, people search and the "Just for Kids" alternative UI. I assume that the 2013 Panasonic 3D BDPs also have those capabilities.
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My ISP is in netflix superhd club. My Sony bdp-s790 netflixs client shows the superhd logo against certain titles. The tivo client doesn't

But, when the tivo switches to 1080p/24 it looks identical to the Sony x-high or superhd stream with the tivo getting the bonus 24 frames per second output.
My guess is that it's getting the Super HD encodes whether it knows how to put the tag on the title's description or not. You can test it with "Example Short 23.976".
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:29 AM   #158
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The netflix client on the tivo is actually one of the best clients there is. Why ?

Because its the only client that I know that's able to play 1080p/24 streams with DD+ bitstream audio.

My ISP is in netflix superhd club. My Sony bdp-s790 netflixs client shows the superhd logo against certain titles. The tivo client doesn't

But, when the tivo switches to 1080p/24 it looks identical to the Sony x-high or superhd stream with the tivo getting the bonus 24 frames per second output.

So I prefer tivo over Sony.

Where tivo falls over is its ability to navigate the titles. It is slower than the Sony.
Yes I also prefer TiVo over the ps3.
The TiVo interface is quite slow.
Sometimes I use the ps3 to build my queue,
then go back to the TiVo to play the videos.

I'm thinking of getting a blu ray player for
my Pioneer plasma tv, Sony s390. No 3d.
Does the Sony blue ray players allow you to
search for actors names in Netflix?
Ps3 does, and I really like this feature.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:46 PM   #159
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The 2012 Panasonics 3D BDPs can do that and have a full implementation of that UI, with skip-forward/back-by-3 in the browser, people search and the "Just for Kids" alternative UI. I assume that the 2013 Panasonic 3D BDPs also have those capabilities.
My guess is that it's getting the Super HD encodes whether it knows how to put the tag on the title's description or not. You can test it with "Example Short 23.976".
The panasonic implementation of 24p is a kluge and you have to turn it on each time you use it.

When I tested the bdt220 the 24p feature was horrible with netflix. I don't know what it was doing but didn't look anything like 24p from a BD in terms of look.

The tivo netflix. 24p output (and amazon vod for that matter) look great

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:46 PM   #160
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Yes I also prefer TiVo over the ps3.
The TiVo interface is quite slow.
Sometimes I use the ps3 to build my queue,
then go back to the TiVo to play the videos.

I'm thinking of getting a blu ray player for
my Pioneer plasma tv, Sony s390. No 3d.
Does the Sony blue ray players allow you to
search for actors names in Netflix?
Ps3 does, and I really like this feature.
Sure.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:03 PM   #161
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Tivo (premier) is able to play the 5800kbs streams.

Tested with example 23.976

When it does it switches to 1080p/24 ouput.

The netflix UI on tivo does not show the superhd tag though

FYI.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:08 PM   #162
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There is one other small bug I've found with netflix on tivo though. The first time you launch netflix and play a DD+ show, tivo will only play the show as DD. if you stop and restart the show it will then play correctly as DD+. From then on all shows that are in DD+ will play as DD+ until you restart the netflix client.

Annoying. Hopefully then fix it at some point.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:20 PM   #163
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The panasonic implementation of 24p is a kluge and you have to turn it on each time you use it.

When I tested the bdt220 the 24p feature was horrible with netflix. I don't know what it was doing but didn't look anything like 24p from a BD in terms of look.
Well this is the first and only time that I've heard that opinion expressed in the year that the 2012 Panasonic BDPs have been on the market (after 3000 posts in its thread on AVS Forum). Sadly I can't judge for myself because I have an older 60 Hz Mitsubishi LCD panel which can't accept 24p; if I send it, my AVR converts it to 60p.

I will give you that having to turn 24p on every time you run the app is a kluge, but only a tiny fraction of the kluge that 24p support in TiVo's Netflix player is. I'm willing to bet that many people have just marginally enough bandwidth to get up to the 1080p Netfllix encode after which it eventually falls back, something which might happen many times, depending upon the title. Every time it pops into 1080p and every time it pops out the great majority of monitors (if not all) will visually decompensate, rendering the Netflix player pretty much useless. This is due to the bizarre decision on TiVo's part to implement 1080p24 without the ability to scale arbitrary resolution/framerate combos to it. If you're not tech-savvy enough to figure it out or persistent and lucky enough to find the answer online, you're just plain SOL insofar as playing most HD Netflix titles on TiVo is concerned. My guess is that there are a pretty significant number of TiVo Premiere owners in that category.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:30 PM   #164
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The panasonic implementation of 24p is a kluge and you have to turn it on each time you use it.

When I tested the bdt220 the 24p feature was horrible with netflix. I don't know what it was doing but didn't look anything like 24p from a BD in terms of look.

The tivo netflix. 24p output (and amazon vod for that matter) look great
Are you sure the content you were watching was 24P and not 30P? Watching 24P content from Netflix with the 24P setting on my Panasonic has no issues for me.
I recently got the Panny 220 for 3D BD playback, but I like the streaming applications it has. Certainly better than my PS3 was(except Amazon). And faster than the TiVo Netflix interface.

I'm curious how the BDT230 will be when it's released next month. I'm hoping it comes out before my sixty day exchange period is up at BestBuy so I can get the newest model.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:07 PM   #165
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Well this is the first and only time that I've heard that opinion expressed in the year that the 2012 Panasonic BDPs have been on the market (after 3000 posts in its thread on AVS Forum). Sadly I can't judge for myself because I have an older 60 Hz Mitsubishi LCD panel which can't accept 24p; if I send it, my AVR converts it to 60p.

I will give you that having to turn 24p on every time you run the app is a kluge, but only a tiny fraction of the kluge that 24p support in TiVo's Netflix player is. I'm willing to bet that many people have just marginally enough bandwidth to get up to the 1080p Netfllix encode after which it eventually falls back, something which might happen many times, depending upon the title. Every time it pops into 1080p and every time it pops out the great majority of monitors (if not all) will visually decompensate, rendering the Netflix player pretty much useless. This is due to the bizarre decision on TiVo's part to implement 1080p24 without the ability to scale arbitrary resolution/framerate combos to it. If you're not tech-savvy enough to figure it out or persistent and lucky enough to find the answer online, you're just plain SOL insofar as playing most HD Netflix titles on TiVo is concerned. My guess is that there are a pretty significant number of TiVo Premiere owners in that category.
Solid 100MB/s down for me.

On more testing the tivo switches to 1080p/24 on the 4300 and 5800 streams.

I agree with you that if you have a wonky Internet connection netflix on tivo is horrible. But if you have a good pipe, it works well.

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Old 01-13-2013, 06:11 PM   #166
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Are you sure the content you were watching was 24P and not 30P? Watching 24P content from Netflix with the 24P setting on my Panasonic has no issues for me.
I recently got the Panny 220 for 3D BD playback, but I like the streaming applications it has. Certainly better than my PS3 was(except Amazon). And faster than the TiVo Netflix interface.

I'm curious how the BDT230 will be when it's released next month. I'm hoping it comes out before my sixty day exchange period is up at BestBuy so I can get the newest model.
I loathed viera connect, viera cast or smart viera or whatever they are calling it. It's slow, looks horrible and you've got to go to another online system to get to the apps, unless there is shortcut on the remote.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:33 PM   #167
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I loathed viera connect, viera cast or smart viera or whatever they are calling it. It's slow, looks horrible and you've got to go to another online system to get to the apps, unless there is shortcut on the remote.
Yes there is a button on the remote for a shortcut. And a dedicated Netflix button. In my use so far it's been a much better experience than my PS3 and many of my other streaming boxes. It's been quick and looked nice too. And I'm also able to use 40Mhz bandwidth over WiFi. The only thing I can really complain about is Amazon streaming because it is limited to stereo audio.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:02 PM   #168
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I agree with you that if you have a wonky Internet connection netflix on tivo is horrible. But if you have a good pipe, it works well.
The question is how many people have "a good enough pipe"? People who subscribe to service that's nominally just barely enough to get 3850 Kbps 1080p, say a 5-8 Mbps tier, will probably see enough drift that they'll pop in and out of 1080p speed, particularly if there are others using that service in their household concurrently with their viewing Netflix. With Netflix players in most devices that's not a problem; PQ will shift a bit back and forth but not disruptively. The situation renders TiVo's Netflix player more or less unusable.

Beyond having 24p in VOD players, which I don't use, I find my BDT220 to be hands down the best at rendering network VOD sources. I argued with someone about the quality of the VUDU HDX encode of Prometheus having excessive banding which I saw and he didn't and it turned out to be not the encode but what I was watching it on (my PS3, unto which I'd downloaded it to take any possible connection speed fluctuation out of the equation). When I tried various titles on various network VOD services on all of my streaming devices--Roku 2 XS, PS3, Xbox 360, BDT220, TiVo and this PC--the BDT220 consistently delivered the most digital artifact free and nearly judder-free output. It even handled bad cases well (Hugo on Netflix comes to mind--it's something produced at 24p which strangely got encoded at 30p by Netflix. The opening continuous panning shot through a busy train station is, to various degrees, a judder-fest on all my players except the BDT220. It's now my go-to player for VUDU, though I generally use my Roku 2 XS for speed and convenience for most everything else.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:25 PM   #169
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The question is how many people have "a good enough pipe"? People who subscribe to service that's nominally just barely enough to get 3850 Kbps 1080p, say a 5-8 Mbps tier, will probably see enough drift that they'll pop in and out of 1080p speed, particularly if there are others using that service in their household concurrently with their viewing Netflix. With Netflix players in most devices that's not a problem; PQ will shift a bit back and forth but not disruptively. The situation renders TiVo's Netflix player more or less unusable.
The average U.S. broadband speed is 6.6 Mbps which is more than enough to sustain a 3850 Kbps 1080p stream. If the PQ is shifting back and forth with a 6 Mbps there is either a problem with the connection or the routing to the CDN server.

For example, back when I had an 8 Mbps connection (I have 50 now), I used to have horrible picture quality problems streaming from Netflix and Amazon downloads to my TiVo took over 8 hours for a 30 minute TV show. It turned out there was a routing problem between Limelight networks CDN and Comcast. Once that was fixed everything worked great.

Many streaming problems are actually caused by people switching their DNS to a 3rd party server to "improve performance". While this might result in faster DNS queries it can also result in DNS based location lookup calculating the wrong user location. This causes sub-optimal CDN servers to used which can cause poor speed as the closer the CDN server is, the better it is (usually). See http://shaun.net/2011/02/how-third-p...t-performance/ and http://lifehacker.com/5721188/fix-it...ty-dns-servers

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Old 01-13-2013, 11:15 PM   #170
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The average U.S. broadband speed is 6.6 Mbps which is more than enough to sustain a 3850 Kbps 1080p stream. If the PQ is shifting back and forth with a 6 Mbps there is either a problem with the connection or the routing to the CDN server.
Or excessive traffic somewhere along the route or sharing the pipe with others in your household doing other things.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:22 PM   #171
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Or excessive traffic somewhere along the route or sharing the pipe with others in your household doing other things.
Excessive traffic along the route would fall under connection or routing issues as I've stated since the ideal routing should pick a CDN geographically close by. Shorter distances (i.e. less routing) should theoretically be less prone to congestion.

Issues with other traffic in your household can be corrected by setting up QOS (or telling others not to download large files while you are watching Netflix). In any case that's a domestic issue.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:54 AM   #172
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Excessive traffic along the route would fall under connection or routing issues as I've stated since the ideal routing should pick a CDN geographically close by. Shorter distances (i.e. less routing) should theoretically be less prone to congestion.
Your router wouldn't seem to determine what servers you get connected to. If you have Windows 8 on a PC, try the procedure that I outline in this post at AVS Forum. The first thing that happens with the Windows 8 Netflix app is that it opens a couple of connections to a server on Amazon's AWS CDN in Virginia (according to whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup). When I start playing something I get connected at first to a bunch of different servers, which eventually settles down to being one or two servers (usually--I've seen it persist in streaming from four or five). Most of the time these are servers in Limelight Networks' CDN, apparently in Tempe AZ (which'd be 350 miles from here in San Diego) and once a Limelight server in the San Francisco area, but in peak hours I've seen it hook me up with servers in the Level 3 and Akamai CDNs, in Wichita and as far away as Cambridge MA. It never seems to stream from the AWS servers, though it's always exchanging some amount of data with one, settling down to a trickle (100 bytes/sec or less), so I think that AWS servers direct the process.

I just tried it playing a stream in the Netflix website player, with pretty much the same results, so you don't need to be running Windows 8 to do this experiment (given that the resource monitor in earlier versions of Windows can do the same tricks, which may not be true).

Of course embedded players could use an entirely different process but it seems unlikely to me (it may be possible to trace that activity using your router, but it'd no doubt be considerably more difficult with most).
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:33 AM   #173
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The first thing that happens with the Windows 8 Netflix app is that it opens a couple of connections to a server on Amazon's AWS CDN in Virginia (according to whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup).
This will differ for people in different areas of the country because of anycast. It's not based on your router, but your DNS. Your machine may open a connection to Amazon's AWS CDN in Virginia, but others will open elsewhere. I posted an example in a prior link, but the IP address returned depends on your DNS.

Using Limelight CND as an example, using Comcast's 75.75.75.75 DNS to lookup amazon-128.fcod.llnwd.net returns 68.142.111.106 which is fcds204.iad.llnw.net (IAD server farm). Using L3's 4.2.2.1 DNS returns 68.142.90.171 or fcds204.lga.llnw.net (LGA server farm).

I'll mention that Netflix uses redundant CDNs (Limelight and Akamai last I checked a couple years ago) to ensure stream quality. If one is bad, it will use the other. If both are bad, that's when problems occur. AWS is used for menu graphics and the like which is why when AWS fails you can't even get into Netflix, but AWS isn't used for actual streaming.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:37 PM   #174
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Using Limelight CND as an example, using Comcast's 75.75.75.75 DNS to lookup amazon-128.fcod.llnwd.net returns 68.142.111.106 which is fcds204.iad.llnw.net (IAD server farm). Using L3's 4.2.2.1 DNS returns 68.142.90.171 or fcds204.lga.llnw.net (LGA server farm).
I wonder why my Cox San Diego South DNS always gives me an AWS server in VA? (EDIT: I just checked; could be because I've been assigned to Cox DNS servers in Atlanta ). What are IAD and LGA? Designations of Limelight server farm locations? I generally get connected to stream servers in the lax.llnw.net subdomain which seems to be in Tempe.

Quote:
I'll mention that Netflix uses redundant CDNs (Limelight and Akamai last I checked a couple years ago) to ensure stream quality.
As I stated above, I generally get streams from Limelight servers in Tempe; during peak times I get connected usually Level 3 servers in Wichita and at least once to an Akamai server in Cambridge, MA (which could hardly be further away, but latency doesn't matter much in highly buffered streaming). I doubt that connection latency to the AWS server(s) used matters much either, but I'll try some of the open DNSes and see what changes.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #175
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I wonder why my Cox San Diego South DNS always gives me an AWS server in VA? (EDIT: I just checked; could be because I've been assigned to Cox DNS servers in Atlanta ). What are IAD and LGA? Designations of Limelight server farm locations? I generally get connected to stream servers in the lax.llnw.net subdomain which seems to be in Tempe.
Limelight names its server farms after nearby airports which makes it easy to figure where they are. LAX is Los Angeles International. IAD is Washington Dulles International. LGA is Leguardia.

Figuring out the Akamai location require doing trace routes and the like.

I'm not sure AWS actually has a location based server (at least not for Netflix) since AWS isn't actually delivering the content so a little extra latency or lower bandwidth isn't terrible, unless the server fails. That's why the Christmas AWS Virginia server failure took out Netflix for most users.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:10 PM   #176
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Don't be ridiculous. At Netflix level streaming quality, the difference between 1080i and 1080p is minimal - if even noticeable. This is not Bluray quality.
LMAO exactly what do you think bluray is; magic? Unless you are a billionaire with experimental technology you're tv isn't capable of displaying beyond 1080p. 1080p is the best you can get, from bluray or netflix (btw some of the few places you can get it).
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:32 PM   #177
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LMAO exactly what do you think bluray is; magic? Unless you are a billionaire with experimental technology you're tv isn't capable of displaying beyond 1080p. 1080p is the best you can get, from bluray or netflix (btw some of the few places you can get it).
But the bit rate for blu ray is significantly higher than Netflix streaming making it much better quality.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:48 PM   #178
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LMAO exactly what do you think bluray is; magic? Unless you are a billionaire with experimental technology you're tv isn't capable of displaying beyond 1080p. 1080p is the best you can get, from bluray or netflix (btw some of the few places you can get it).
There is more too it than just 1080P how much it is compressed (see bit rate) really matters and nothing you stream over the Internet is any where near the quality of a blue ray disk. As an example most movies on blu-ray will be 20 to 30GB the same movie gets compressed down to 2-3GB when streamed by a service like Netflix.

Now if you can actually see the difference between a well done stream and the blu-ray version of the same video depends on your TV size, where you sit, and your eyes. Many people don't have big enough TVs or sit close enough to see the difference as an example I think to see all the resolution a 50 inch 1080p TV can produce you need to be 5 feet away from it, so if you are sitting 10 feet away it would be hard to see the improved quality of blu-ray over streaming.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:18 PM   #179
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Now if you can actually see the difference between a well done stream and the blu-ray version of the same video depends on your TV size, where you sit, and your eyes. Many people don't have big enough TVs or sit close enough to see the difference as an example I think to see all the resolution a 50 inch 1080p TV can produce you need to be 5 feet away from it, so if you are sitting 10 feet away it would be hard to see the improved quality of blu-ray over streaming.
For a 50" screen you should start to see the benefits of 1080p at about 10 feet, but won't see the full benefits until about 6 feet. See http://www.foxav.net/html/body_screen_size.html

Bit rate doesn't come into play for that though as bit rate effects picture quality when there is motion on screen. A static scene in 1080p will look the same on Netflix as it does on a Blu-ray. Fast motion will break up (macro block) on lower bit rates because motion requires more data. That would be noticeable at distances greater than 10 feet for a 50" TV.

Of note there's a new h.265 standard that supposedly handles compression better such that it has the same picture quality as h.264, at half the bit rate. Nothing supports h.265 yet though.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:15 AM   #180
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For a 50" screen you should start to see the benefits of 1080p at about 10 feet, but won't see the full benefits until about 6 feet. See http://www.foxav.net/html/body_screen_size.html

Bit rate doesn't come into play for that though as bit rate effects picture quality when there is motion on screen. A static scene in 1080p will look the same on Netflix as it does on a Blu-ray. Fast motion will break up (macro block) on lower bit rates because motion requires more data. That would be noticeable at distances greater than 10 feet for a 50" TV.

Of note there's a new h.265 standard that supposedly handles compression better such that it has the same picture quality as h.264, at half the bit rate. Nothing supports h.265 yet though.
Ya I know sitting distance, bit rate, & and the actually abilities of the TV being used effect over all perceived quality in different ways.

But my point is between where people sit and the abilities of the TV they are watching on, for many people it is hard to see the difference between a movie on blu-ray and the same movie via a high quality stream.

Just for general info most new movies are actually filmed in 4K (4 times the definition as 1080p) and there is talk about going to 8K so even a blu-ray disk is compressed and a reduction in the quality compared to the movie in theaters. Also HD TVs can not currently reproduce as wide a color field as what you can see in a movie theater. Ok end of my plug for still going to movie theaters.
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