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Old 09-30-2012, 09:43 PM   #61
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The only reason someone should be paying for a TiVo is because they want a superior DVR
That may be the case if you are only comparing to other cable DVR options, but if anyone has ever used a Dish Network DVR I think you would agree that the interface, responsiveness, and functionality is significantly better than the TiVo Premiere. I owned a Dish ViP622 for several years and now I have a Hopper/Joey system and the TiVo interface feels bloated and unresponsive in comparison to both.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:45 AM   #62
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That may be the case if you are only comparing to other cable DVR options, but if anyone has ever used a Dish Network DVR I think you would agree that the interface, responsiveness, and functionality is significantly better than the TiVo Premiere. I owned a Dish ViP622 for several years and now I have a Hopper/Joey system and the TiVo interface feels bloated and unresponsive in comparison to both.
I doubt there are very many of us that have a dish HD DVR and a TiVo Premiere sitting in our living rooms together to be able to do a direct comparison. I don't, so I can not comment on Dish's current DVRs as compared to a Premiere. I did have a Dish 510 DVR and it compared pretty well to a TiVo Series 2 back in the day.

But I wouldn't use the words bloated or unresponsive to describe my Premiere, I am currently using the SDUI and that is very fast, very responsive, and easy to use when you are doing anything with the DVR functions. Where my Premiere seem to lag is with the streaming media stuff and that is mostly during startup of the app given that Dish DVRs can not access Netflix, Hulu+, etc. I don't know how someone can do a direct comparison of those functions.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:01 AM   #63
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Do as others have said... Go in to the TiVo video output settings, and check 1080i only (disable 1080p).

Doing that removed all the Netflix 'blackout' issues for me. I was seeing it consistently at predictable spots on many Netflix videos.
I have used 1080i only on two TiVo Premieres since before the update to Netflix and I have always had the blank dropouts. I'll try resetting the resolution to something else, then back to 1080i again, but I'm not hopeful as this has been my resolution all this time.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:09 PM   #64
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I have used 1080i only on two TiVo Premieres since before the update to Netflix and I have always had the blank dropouts. I'll try resetting the resolution to something else, then back to 1080i again, but I'm not hopeful as this has been my resolution all this time.
Try playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with bit rate and resolution burned into each of its video encodes. At what resolutions are these dropouts happening?
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #65
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This is a little concerning - I was just about to pull the trigger on a Premier after having just reactivated my HD. For now I'll stick with my PS3 for Hulu and Netflix. I was using a PC as a DVR and went back to my TiVo for the convenience and great UI. Hoping I can get back to a single box for all my TV content.

Also may check out an Apple TV in the interim.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:50 AM   #66
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Well, you are hearing from those with issues. I for one, have not had any at all.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:02 AM   #67
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This is a little concerning - I was just about to pull the trigger on a Premier after having just reactivated my HD. For now I'll stick with my PS3 for Hulu and Netflix. I was using a PC as a DVR and went back to my TiVo for the convenience and great UI. Hoping I can get back to a single box for all my TV content.

Also may check out an Apple TV in the interim.
The only possible "single" box solution is a fully loaded home theater gaming PC.

Not sure what you are looking for but unless you have already purchased allot of content from apple I would pick a Roku over an Apple TV for access to streaming media services.

If it is worth upgrading a TiVo HD to Premiere or not is debatable (and personal), I can give you reasons both ways.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:20 PM   #68
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The only possible "single" box solution is a fully loaded home theater gaming PC.
A PC would be helpful, and I've gone that route before. I don't have cable and am running OTA only. I like WMC quite a but, but I got tired of dealing with the PC and wanted the convenience of my TiVo again. The PC was too big and my smallest PC was too under powered. Currently using a PS3 for Hulu and Netflix.

Another option could be an Xbox - I can get the OTA signal to it and (I believe) it runs WMC, so I'd have PVR + Hulu + Netflix for just a little more than an a new TiVo would cost.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:09 PM   #69
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Another option could be an Xbox - I can get the OTA signal to it and (I believe) it runs WMC, so I'd have PVR + Hulu + Netflix for just a little more than an a new TiVo would cost.
I may be wrong but I don't think that there's any official TV tuner support for the Xbox in the United States (they've demoed stuff at product shows and I think that it may be deployed in Europe). Their focus with that is IPTV and not OTA. Its current support for WMC is as a Media Extender--it gives access to a WMC server running on a PC on your LAN.

Also, unlike the PS3 and TiVo's Netflix players, the Xbox's does not play the highest quality 1080p Netflix video encodes, as yet. With last Fall's dashboard update, Microsoft seemed to have established a policy that no 1080p video shall be output by the Xbox except from their Zune Video player. A recent update to the Xbox VUDU player is a break from that policy, since it now offers 1080p HDX video (all year it has only offered SD and 720p HD quality levels). 1080p Netflix could be next.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:19 PM   #70
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Its current support for WMC is as a Media Extender--it gives access to a WMC server running on a PC on your LAN.
Ugh... right. So I'll need to have WMC running on another PC. Not as seamless as I'd hoped. However, I have a lot of PCs and CAT5 everywhere, so certainly possible. But it's yet another component to manage.

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Also, unlike the PS3 and TiVo's Netflix players, the Xbox's does not play the highest quality 1080p Netflix video encodes, as yet.
Good point. Not an issue for me, as my TV only does 1080i. But could be an issue in the future. No ideal option here. And I get the point above about not everybody disliking Hulu and Netflix on the TiVo. I suspect the performance issues with Netflix would drive me insane.

Still undecided and no great answers here. So I'll agree it's looking like a PC is going to be the closest. More time, money, and all the PC hassles, or get a TiVo P.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:11 PM   #71
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Not an issue for me, as my TV only does 1080i.
Sure it is--players will convert 1080p24 to 1080i30 or 1080p60 if your television can't accept a 24p signal; TiVo does. To see whether you're getting the 1080 encode you can play "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with bit rate and resolution burned into each of its video encodes. The difference is usually not startling, but it is sharper.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:47 PM   #72
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Personally I use the Roku box for all of my Netflix/Amazon video type viewing. The Netflix experience on the TiVo is so bad I can't stand watching that way. I thought the fact that they finally added Netflix Search to the app would change my mind, but that is not enough to convince me to use it with all of the other problems.

I find it strange that my Apple TV, PS3, Roku and even my iPad all do this so well, yet a big dedicated Video recorder/player has so much trouble doing this right.
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:52 PM   #73
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I find it strange that my Apple TV, PS3, Roku and even my iPad all do this so well, yet a big dedicated Video recorder/player has so much trouble doing this right.
You can say that again.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:59 PM   #74
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Personally I use the Roku box for all of my Netflix/Amazon video type viewing. The Netflix experience on the TiVo is so bad I can't stand watching that way. I thought the fact that they finally added Netflix Search to the app would change my mind, but that is not enough to convince me to use it with all of the other problems.

I find it strange that my Apple TV, PS3, Roku and even my iPad all do this so well, yet a big dedicated Video recorder/player has so much trouble doing this right.
Different chipsets from what I understand. One is designed for DVR functionality first and the other for online streaming services.

Don't forget the Premiere is running on 3-4 year old hardware.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:52 PM   #75
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It would be interesting to know what specific problems wrecklass is talking about. Most of what people have complained about aren't actual bugs, just ways in which it's designed that they don't like.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:08 PM   #76
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Tried using Netflix on the Premiere for the first time in a long time. I just replaced my aging AVR with a new one and was going through all of my components. I usually use a PS3 for Netlfix. Its gigabit connection has always made it the fastest of my Netflix devices. The XBOX 360 has a Netflix interface I just do not like at all. My gamertag was recently, permanently suspended so that Netflix component is useless now. I also use the Netflix interface on a Samsung SMART TV and Samsung SMART Blu-ray player. Anyhoo, was using TiVo tonight and things were looking good until the picture started to flicker on my TV. I thought it was my AVR acting up and I was not happy. I switched to the PS3 and then to the SMART TV. They both ran fine. What I noticed when watching Netflix on the TiVo is that it cannot maintain the 1080p 24fps image and switches back and forth to 1080p 60. This is where the flickering comes in to play. The audio was constant. Speaking of the audio. I was quite pleased to see that the TiVo is actually outputting Dolby Digital Plus 5.1. All of my other devices are outputting standard Dolby Digital 5.1. Before it began flickering, the TiVo was putting up a very nice picture. It was comparable to all of the other devices, though the SMART TV seemed to have the edge over the rest. So, if they could stabilize the Netflix app in the TiVo I'd be happy to use it more often as the 1080p 24fps and Dolby Digital Plus output make it technically the best Netflix device I have in my setup. If only it worked.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:14 PM   #77
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Personally I use the Roku box for all of my Netflix/Amazon video type viewing. The Netflix experience on the TiVo is so bad I can't stand watching that way. I thought the fact that they finally added Netflix Search to the app would change my mind, but that is not enough to convince me to use it with all of the other problems.

I find it strange that my Apple TV, PS3, Roku and even my iPad all do this so well, yet a big dedicated Video recorder/player has so much trouble doing this right.
The picture quality is better from the TiVo since it has native resolution output. The 1080P24 content, running through my DVDO DUO and my Darbee Darblet looks better from the TiVo than from the Roku2 which will output that content at 1080P60. The only real issue with the Netflix stream on the TiVo is when it switches resolutions. But that is because it has native resolution output, which I think only one other device might have.

And I forgot about the DD+ issue. Sometimes the TiVo will output DD 5.1 and sometimes it will output DD+ 5.1 for the same title. While the ROku2 will always output DD+. My preference is to use the TiVo for Netflix because of the Native resolution output. But I still use my Roku2 boxes for Netflix as well. But mostly my TiVos. It really depends on what device I'm using at the time. If I just finished playing a Game on my 360 then I might use that for Netflix playback. But out of all my video devices my TiVos are used the most.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:49 PM   #78
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Ooh, a Darbee Darblet. Only heard of it yesterday and wondered how people were liking it. I'd get one, but it's a bit pricey. How much does it actually improve the picture? Do tell!
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:47 AM   #79
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What I noticed when watching Netflix on the TiVo is that it cannot maintain the 1080p 24fps image and switches back and forth to 1080p 60. This is where the flickering comes in to play.
My guess is that your PS3 and Samsung TV would have experienced the same dips in connection-bandwidth/server-responsiveness which caused the TiVo to switch in and out of displaying Netflix's 1080p encode, but on them you wouldn't have noticed it. The PS3 would smoothly go from the 1080p24 encode to a 720p24 one and back, outputting 1080p60 for both; the television would internally handle the 24p encodes and display them at whatever its native framerate is (presumably without judder caused by 2:3 pulldown if its native rate is some multiple of 24), upconverting 720 to 1080 when necessary.
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The only real issue with the Netflix stream on the TiVo is when it switches resolutions. But that is because it has native resolution output, which I think only one other device might have.
There are a few others, which include the 2012 Panasonic BD players (DMP-BDT220, -320, -500), the WD TV Live and WD TV Live Hub and an LG television or two. The difference between those and TiVo is that (at least in the case of the Panasonic BD players) they can take the other formats that Netflix's adaptive bit rate streaming will give them (480p24, 720p24) and output them as 1080p24--TiVo can only output 1080p24 as 1080p24, so when the adaptive streaming steps down to 720p and back it has to switch output resolutions, which will cause most televisions to visually hiccup (what mine does is very un-pretty). The only solution is to set the output resolution of the TiVo to 1080i-only; TiVo can convert anything into 1080i on output and 1080p24 converted to 1080i30 is generally no great degradation of the picture.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:31 AM   #80
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My guess is that your PS3 and Samsung TV would have experienced the same dips in connection-bandwidth/server-responsiveness which caused the TiVo to switch in and out of displaying Netflix's 1080p encode, but on them you wouldn't have noticed it. The PS3 would smoothly go from the 1080p24 encode to a 720p24 one and back, outputting 1080p60 for both; the television would internally handle the 24p encodes and display them at whatever its native framerate is (presumably without judder caused by 2:3 pulldown if its native rate is some multiple of 24), upconverting 720 to 1080 when necessary.
There are a few others, which include the 2012 Panasonic BD players (DMP-BDT220, -320, -500), the WD TV Live and WD TV Live Hub and an LG television or two. The difference between those and TiVo is that (at least in the case of the Panasonic BD players) they can take the other formats that Netflix's adaptive bit rate streaming will give them (480p24, 720p24) and output them as 1080p24--TiVo can only output 1080p24 as 1080p24, so when the adaptive streaming steps down to 720p and back it has to switch output resolutions, which will cause most televisions to visually hiccup (what mine does is very un-pretty). The only solution is to set the output resolution of the TiVo to 1080i-only; TiVo can convert anything into 1080i on output and 1080p24 converted to 1080i30 is generally no great degradation of the picture.
It sounds like those devices don't have native resolution output if they are taking the 480P24 and 720P24 streams and outputting them as 1080P24 instead of 480P60 and 720P60. They are just scaling them and keeping the same frame rate. The Roku2 scales as well. Although the Roku2 will not keep the same framerate and will output it as 1080P60. I would rather not have the device do any scaling and have my external scaler do that since it does a better job at it. Of course because of the HDMI issue when changing resolutions you need to make a tradeoff and let the device do the scaling. But unfortunately that typically results in an inferior picture. WHich is why I typically prefer to use the native resolution output of the TiVo.

I don't know if anything changed recently but this weekend I watched season 1 of Scandal on Netflix. When I started streaming each episode, four of the seven episodes started out streaming at 1080P24 so I didn't have an issue with it changing resolutions. Since it started and stayed at 1080P24 during the entire episodes. While the other 3 started out at a lower resolution and switched to 1080P24 after a few seconds.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #81
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Ooh, a Darbee Darblet. Only heard of it yesterday and wondered how people were liking it. I'd get one, but it's a bit pricey. How much does it actually improve the picture? Do tell!
I didn't care for it. Only improved picture very nominally. Will be sending mine back. Also, TV kept finding a new device and causing the 3D settings to be disabled.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #82
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It sounds like those devices don't have native resolution output if they are taking the 480P24 and 720P24 streams and outputting them as 1080P24 instead of 480P60 and 720P60. They are just scaling them and keeping the same frame rate.
Keeping the native framerate is the special part, allowing them to be displayed without pulldown motion artifacts on monitors with a factor-of-24 refresh rate which handle 24p correctly. Some people want this because they're extremely sensitive to judder.

I don't know whether any of the devices I listed have native resolution output or not. The only one that I own is a Panasonic DMP-BDT220 and it does not. Native resolution is problematic when watching video from an adaptive bit rate streaming player. If you always get a connection to a server which stays steady and never develops conditions where it would drop out of 1080p temporarily, then you'll get the one video hiccup as it climbs up to 1080p and never again, which is probably tolerable.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:14 PM   #83
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Ooh, a Darbee Darblet. Only heard of it yesterday and wondered how people were liking it. I'd get one, but it's a bit pricey. How much does it actually improve the picture? Do tell!
I'm using a couple of them and have been very pleased with the results on my Sammy LED DLP RPTV and my Sammy LCD TV.

For the past five years I had used an Algolith HDMI Flea in my main setup to reduce some of the noise from broadcast sources. With the Darblet I have it set at 42% which seems to be a good compromise in detail and noise for me. There is a nice improvement in perceived detail from both my HDTVs.

And they were only around $270 each which is a steal for what it does. My FLEA cost almost $1K five years ago and I could only use it with my broadcast sources since it can't handle above 1080P24.

The Darblet has no issue with 1080P60. I've used it with broadcast sources, streaming sources, BD sources, home made videos, and gaming sources. All with very good results. I had read the reviews of it and was skeptical, but was pleasantly surprised with the results. All this without ringing being added to the picture and without a bunch of video delay added either.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:20 PM   #84
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Made some tweaks. I set the AVR to pass all video inputs with no conversion and this fixed the 1080p 24fps flickers from the TiVo. Any flickers that occur now are from stream lag and not from the AVR. The Samsung Plasma does as good a job of upscaling as the AVR.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:46 PM   #85
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Any flickers that occur now are from stream lag and not from the AVR.
What's "stream lag"? I've (very rarely) seen some of these adaptive bit rate players stop and rebuffer for a few seconds and then resume playing the same high bit rate encode. Inasmuch as it should never do that (instead, smoothly switching to a lower bit rate encode before it comes near to running out of content to play) it's a bug--avoiding stops to rebuffer is the entire point of adaptive bit rate streaming.

How often does whatever you're calling "stream lag" happen?
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #86
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No idea what stream lag is but I never have my buffer run out. Any issues I see is from the resolution chnage.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:55 PM   #87
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When this weirdness occurs I'm pretty sure that the buffer hasn't actually run out, since the buffering progress bar comes up for only a few seconds; I've measured the buffer on some devices (by unplugging them from the network and timing how long they continue to play) and they're mostly a 1 to 1.5 minutes or so. It'd take a lot longer than a few seconds to fill a buffer of that size with 5.2 Mbps content (Netflix 1080p+5.1 sound). It's definitely some sort of bug. Again, I've only very rarely seen it happen.

I've googled "stream lag" and the term has been used to describe a phenomena people have experienced with Yahoo, wherein the video blanks out for a few seconds while the audio continues. Who knows what causes that; I've never seen it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:22 PM   #88
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Poor choice of words, I suppose. I was talking about the loss of video quality that occurs from time to time. The audio remains fine, but the picture will, for a few moments, look very pixelated until the quality gradually returns to normal. It doesn't stop at any time. It could be the TiVo or the router.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #89
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Poor choice of words, I suppose. I was talking about the loss of video quality that occurs from time to time. The audio remains fine, but the picture will, for a few moments, look very pixelated until the quality gradually returns to normal. It doesn't stop at any time. It could be the TiVo or the router.
That's normal--it happens because the player detects that its buffer is draining, meaning that under current conditions it's not able to stay ahead of the stream. When that happens it asks the server to start sending it a lower-bit-rate/lower-picture-quality version of the video stream; when it detects that things have improved it asks for a higher-bit-rate/higher-picture-quality video encode. That's adaptive bit-rate streaming (aka ABS), as opposed to the old let-the-buffer-run-dry-then-pause-to-buffer-a-lower-bit-rate-encode-and-never-go-back strategy. Those pauses to re-buffer are very disruptive and frustrating, generally thought to be much worse for the viewing experience than a momentary decrease in picture quality. When ABS works well, it's like watching the focus of a camera sharpen and soften.

Try playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with a text overlay stating bit-rate and resolution burned into each of its video encodes; it lets you see this process in action.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:01 AM   #90
tre74
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 83
Played this clip. My TV is not a fan of frame rate changes and goes black for a moment and then comes back on and displays the new resolution and frame rate in the upper left corner. Oh, and this is one corny clip. The guy moonwalking while holding a laptop, lame!
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