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Old 09-01-2012, 07:21 PM   #1
Boneless
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Want to add a QAM channel after scan

When I do a scan, all the channels I want come in except for one local that I can pickup from my built-in QAM tuner on my Samsung tv. When I enter the numbers directly on the tivo, I can see the channel fine and can record live. But I can't setup a future manual recording without it in the channel list. Is there a way to add channels to the list?
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #2
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When I do a scan, all the channels I want come in except for one local that I can pickup from my built-in QAM tuner on my Samsung tv. When I enter the numbers directly on the tivo, I can see the channel fine and can record live. But I can't setup a future manual recording without it in the channel list. Is there a way to add channels to the list?
Not that I know of, so you need to get TiVo to add it.

So contact them.
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:41 PM   #3
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Well, hold on. He's talking about a manual recording, so the guide is not involved. It sounds to me like he needs to go to the channel line-up and specify that channel as one he receives.
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:06 PM   #4
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Well, hold on. He's talking about a manual recording, so the guide is not involved. It sounds to me like he needs to go to the channel line-up and specify that channel as one he receives.
Exactly, only problem is it doesn't show up in the found channel list after a scan. But I can manually enter it from "live tv" and it comes in perfectly.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:02 PM   #5
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Exactly, only problem is it doesn't show up in the found channel list after a scan. But I can manually enter it from "live tv" and it comes in perfectly.
So you need to tell TiVo that this channel needs to be added to the list of channels they provide for your zip code.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:15 PM   #6
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So you need to tell TiVo that this channel needs to be added to the list of channels they provide for your zip code.
Assuming he's talking about Cable clear QAM channels, TiVo doesn't provide guide data for those.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:18 PM   #7
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Assuming he's talking about Cable clear QAM channels, TiVo doesn't provide guide data for those.
Well, that bites. What's their excuse for not doing so?
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:20 PM   #8
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You could try using your TV to aim antenna so you get the strongest signal possible for that channel then rescan (keeping previously found). If is on cable I had to do two scans to get all of mine.

Last edited by cannonz : 09-02-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:30 PM   #9
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Assuming he's talking about Cable clear QAM channels, TiVo doesn't provide guide data for those.
At least they label the channels.
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #10
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At least they label the channels.
Only with the label that is part of the data sent with the feed.

As to why they don't provide guide data for clear QAM channels, supposedly it has something to do with getting Cable Labs certification.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:17 AM   #11
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Exactly, only problem is it doesn't show up in the found channel list after a scan. But I can manually enter it from "live tv" and it comes in perfectly.
Do you not have a CableCard? If not, that is the problem.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:21 AM   #12
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As to why they don't provide guide data for clear QAM channels, supposedly it has something to do with getting Cable Labs certification.
No, there is physically no way to do it. It's not a matter of CableCard certification.

BTW, they *DO* provide guide data for clear QAM "channels". There just is no way for the TiVo to know what those "channels" are without the CableCard data to identify them.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:24 AM   #13
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You could try using your TV to aim antenna so you get the strongest signal possible for that channel then rescan (keeping previously found). If is on cable I had to do two scans to get all of mine.
We are talking at cross purposes, here. At first, like you, I thought he was talking about an OTA channel. He seems to be talking about a clear QAM stream timeslot though.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:51 AM   #14
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We are talking at cross purposes, here. At first, like you, I thought he was talking about an OTA channel. He seems to be talking about a clear QAM stream timeslot though.
Yeah, that's why I edited to add if he's referring to clear QAM (and looks like he is) I had to scan twice to get some of mine.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:45 AM   #15
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You could try using your TV to aim antenna so you get the strongest signal possible for that channel then rescan (keeping previously found). If is on cable I had to do two scans to get all of mine.
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Yeah, that's why I edited to add if he's referring to clear QAM (and looks like he is) I had to scan twice to get some of mine.
I scanned multiple times but the tivo just does not want to pickup that particular frequency and its my fox affiliate so it its kinda of a bummer not to have that local station. I don't use a antenna and receive "in the clear" local QAM stations and some SDV otherwise. I don't pay for any cable packages except basic. I just can't get the HD version of fox when scanning for channels, and therefore can't make any manual recordings on that frequency. But it comes in find when I manually press the frequency on the remote. Really bugs me but I guess I have to live with it.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:25 PM   #16
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I scanned multiple times but the tivo just does not want to pickup that particular frequency and its my fox affiliate so it its kinda of a bummer not to have that local station.
It is not a frequency. This is no longer the days of analog video. The stream may be found on any QAM carrier anywhere in the spectrum. Someone in a different neighborhood from yours may find it on a different carrier than you do. The assignment may change at a moment's notice. That's why it's not possible for TiVo to provide an ID without a CableCard. Doing so requires a channel map, and the channel map is provided by the CableCard. Some DVRs allow one to manually set a channel assignment, and indeed a modified S3 can do so, but there is absolutely no guarantee the mapping will be the same ten minutes from now.

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I don't use a antenna and receive "in the clear" local QAM stations and some SDV otherwise.
No, you don't. First of all, essentially all digital video on CATV systems is QAM. Most broadcast local stations in the clear. You do not receive any SDV channels. SDV requires not only a CableCard, but also a Tuning Adapter in order to be received on any UDCP, like the TiVo. Perhaps you mean SD, not SDV?

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I don't pay for any cable packages except basic. I just can't get the HD version of fox when scanning for channels, and therefore can't make any manual recordings on that frequency.
Again, it is not a frequency. It is a timselot within the bitstream of an arbitrary QAM carrier. The QAM carrier, of course is at some particular frequency determined by the plumbing at the CATV hubsite or headend, but it is not deterministic. Typically anything from 3 to 12 "channels" share that same frequency, and the content assignment is not based upon the frequency of the carrier, but the tag assigned to the timeslot. In order to correlate that with a particular "channel", the channel map is required.

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But it comes in find when I manually press the frequency on the remote. Really bugs me but I guess I have to live with it.
Or you can do what the FCC and everyone else in the industry intended for you to do: get a CableCard from your CATV provider. Of course, depending on how obtuse your CATV provider is, this might require obtaining additional services. That, or as has been implied, if it is locally broadcast you can get an external antenna (possibly a very cheap one will work fine) and receive the signal OTA. In many instances the PQ of OTA broadcasts may be superior to that provided by the CATV company.

Last edited by lrhorer : 09-03-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:49 PM   #17
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Odd it won't get it, maybe if you put that channel on both tuners before starting scan will see it. I was surprised it would not let you add to list manually myself.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:36 PM   #18
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Clear QAM channels do not move around that often, particularly on a system that does not employ SDV. I ran my latest Premiere for over a month w/o a CableCARD and never had to rescan.

Guide data is provided for channels and is not directly related to the Channel map. The channel map just tells the TiVo how to tune to that channel.

You can sorta get guide data for the clear QAM channels, assuming they are just the locals. Redo guided setup, telling the TiVo you also have an antenna. You will get guide data for all of your locals, probably including ones you can"t receive even with a decent antenna. After the cable channel scan, you will end up with two entries in the guide for each of the clear QAM channels, one that is actually the OTA channel and which will have guide data. The other will be the clear QAM channel which won't. You will no longer be able to tune directly to the cable channel as the TiVo will tune to the OTA channel instead and you still won't be able to create season passes, but you will be able too determine what is on and you will still be able to create manual recordings. You can also continue to manually tune to the channel by tuning to the OTA channel and doing a channel up. Or select it from the guide.

Of course, this presents a problem for the OP as the cable channel scan isn't finding one of the channels. Are you quite certain that when you manually tune it, it is going to the cable channel and not the OTA channel?

TiVo could in fact provide guide data for the clear QAM channels. The are after all exactly the same as the OTA channels. The fact that the clear QAM channels can theoretically be moved, thus requiring the user to do a rescan is one of their excuses for not doing so.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #19
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Clear QAM channels do not move around that often, particularly on a system that does not employ SDV. I ran my latest Premiere for over a month w/o a CableCARD and never had to rescan.
That depends on the CATV system, and indeed even the neighborhood. It's true many CATV systems don't re-arrange carriers much. Others do.

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Guide data is provided for channels and is not directly related to the Channel map. The channel map just tells the TiVo how to tune to that channel.
Correct, and that is the issue.

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You can sorta get guide data for the clear QAM channels, assuming they are just the locals.
...
The other will be the clear QAM channel which won't.
Or as I pointed out, get (or make) an antenna.

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TiVo could in fact provide guide data for the clear QAM channels.
As you yourself point out, they do.

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The are after all exactly the same as the OTA channels. The fact that the clear QAM channels can theoretically be moved, thus requiring the user to do a rescan is one of their excuses for not doing so.
No matter what, they would have to be manually input. A more important reason is the TiVo is by design a highly automated device. The entire design philosophy revolves around the TiVo doing all the work. An even more important reason still is the TiVo is specifically designed to employ a CableCard, an antenna, or both, not some kludge compromise.

Last edited by lrhorer : 09-04-2012 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:36 PM   #20
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That depends on the CATV system, and indeed even the neighborhood. It's true many CATV systems don't re-arrange carriers much. Others do
I would guess that most don't. The point is that I should have the option.

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Or as I pointed out, get (or make) an antenna.
When I was running w/o a CableCARD, there were quite a few OTA channels that broke up or I couldn't receive at all that came through fine on clear QAM channels.

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TiVo could in fact provide guide data for the clear QAM channels.
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As you yourself point out, they do.
No, they don't. They are two separate entries in the guide. The OTA channel entry has program information, the clear QAM entry doesn't. This makes the clear QAM channel useless except for live TV and manual recordings.

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No matter what, they would have to be manually input.
How exactly do you arrive at that incredible statement?

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A more important reason is the TiVo is by design a highly automated device. The entire design philosophy revolves around the TiVo doing all the work. An even more important reason still is the TiVo is specifically designed to employ a CableCard, an antenna, or both, not some kludge compromise.
No, the Tivo is designed to be used in any manner I see fit to use it. If you had your way, there would be mandatory defaults and anyone who didn't like them would be told to see figure one.

The fact that some users wish to avoid the idiotic "additional digital outlet" fees by foregoing a CableCARD should and could be supported by TiVo.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:00 PM   #21
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:16 PM   #22
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Clear QAM channels do not move around that often, particularly on a system that does not employ SDV. I ran my latest Premiere for over a month w/o a CableCARD and never had to rescan.

Guide data is provided for channels and is not directly related to the Channel map. The channel map just tells the TiVo how to tune to that channel.

You can sorta get guide data for the clear QAM channels, assuming they are just the locals. Redo guided setup, telling the TiVo you also have an antenna. You will get guide data for all of your locals, probably including ones you can"t receive even with a decent antenna. After the cable channel scan, you will end up with two entries in the guide for each of the clear QAM channels, one that is actually the OTA channel and which will have guide data. The other will be the clear QAM channel which won't. You will no longer be able to tune directly to the cable channel as the TiVo will tune to the OTA channel instead and you still won't be able to create season passes, but you will be able too determine what is on and you will still be able to create manual recordings. You can also continue to manually tune to the channel by tuning to the OTA channel and doing a channel up. Or select it from the guide.

Of course, this presents a problem for the OP as the cable channel scan isn't finding one of the channels. Are you quite certain that when you manually tune it, it is going to the cable channel and not the OTA channel?

TiVo could in fact provide guide data for the clear QAM channels. The are after all exactly the same as the OTA channels. The fact that the clear QAM channels can theoretically be moved, thus requiring the user to do a rescan is one of their excuses for not doing so.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I do receive a SD version of Fox, but the OTA HD is not seen by the channel scan while all the other local affiliates are seen. It mainly bugs me since I can't record HD football on that channel and only the SD version. Once the season is done, I probably won't complain about it until next year. I do what you said about guide data. Check guide data for SD channels and manually record on the HD QAM channels.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:24 AM   #23
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I do receive a SD version of Fox, but the OTA HD is not seen by the channel scan while all the other local affiliates are seen. It mainly bugs me since I can't record HD football on that channel and only the SD version. Once the season is done, I probably won't complain about it until next year. I do what you said about guide data. Check guide data for SD channels and manually record on the HD QAM channels.
You have totally confused me. Does your cable system still have analog channels? Without a CableCARD, those are the only cable channels for which you can get guide data. My suggestion was to set up TiVo for Over-the-Air reception as well as cable. You can get guide data for those.

If you tune to thee channel by just entering numbers, it is an analog channel.

If you do not have any of the cable cos boxes, you should be able to get a CableCARD w/o paying any extra. Where are you, what cable co do you have, what is your official package name, and what equipment of theirs do you have?
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:03 PM   #24
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You have totally confused me. Does your cable system still have analog channels? Without a CableCARD, those are the only cable channels for which you can get guide data. My suggestion was to set up TiVo for Over-the-Air reception as well as cable. You can get guide data for those.

If you tune to thee channel by just entering numbers, it is an analog channel.

If you do not have any of the cable cos boxes, you should be able to get a CableCARD w/o paying any extra. Where are you, what cable co do you have, what is your official package name, and what equipment of theirs do you have?
I pay only for analog stations which I do receive correctly and do receive guide data. I did setup tivo for OTA and cable and can receive some digital channels and HD locals but those don't have guide data for the HD of course.

Cablecards cost extra per month and since I don't subscribe to any packages, it won't work either until I pay for digital, which means quadrupling my cable bill which is useless since we only use basic tv or internet to begin with.

I'm located in Honolulu, HI with Time Warner and only have 1 cable box attached to a series 1 tivo while my series 3 is connected as another source to my tv. Like I said before, I can scan and receive all analog and local HD and set manually recordings without guide data and no prob. But I'm missing one local HD that doesn't get picked up by the channel scan and can enter it manually when on live tv to watch it. However since it doesn't get picked up by the channel scan and end up in the channel list, I can't manually record anything on it since tivo doesn't recognize it as a legit channel.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:54 PM   #25
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You are going to channel list and putting the check mark on that channel, or is it not there for you to check?
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:48 PM   #26
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If all the channels for which you are authorized are analog, what is the box for?

Both scans (antenna and cable) fail to find the HD version of the Fox affiliate? The only thing it finds is the cable SD version?

Can you give me an example of channel no. that you tune to on the S3 for which you get guide data? What numbers do you enter by hand to tune to the Fox HD channel? What does the channel list say about that channel?
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:15 PM   #27
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I would guess that most don't. The point is that I should have the option.
In this case, no, any more than TiVo should be required to reproduce signals from a mechanical TV camera. It took 20 years of pulling, pushing, and fighting tooth and nail to come up with a set of standards (poor as it is) that is supposed to allow fully separable security, and CableLabs et al are still trying very hard to kill it, making the TiVo completely obsolete. Allowing people to circumvent it is a fairly bad idea for a number of reasons. A much better solution would be to require CableCards even for OTA. In fact, I wish it were the case in the first place, and that the OTA providers would be forced to rely solely on subscriptions for their revenue. I'm tired of paying for them. *THAT* is the option you and I (and everyone else) should have, and the OTA channels cost all of us one whole Hell of a lot more than a couple of CableCards.

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When I was running w/o a CableCARD, there were quite a few OTA channels that broke up or I couldn't receive at all that came through fine on clear QAM channels.
I can't speak to that. One may have issues with anything. OTA broadcasts have access to greater bandwidth than most CATV streams, and most people who have both have reported superior performance for OTA. There is no question your experience may have been otherwise, but it is also not the norm.

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No, they don't. They are two separate entries in the guide. The OTA channel entry has program information, the clear QAM entry doesn't.
Nonsense. Of course it does. It doesn't appear on the screen, of course, but that does not mean the data is not there. Without the CableCard providing the map, there is no way for the TiVo to match up that data with an arbitrary and unidentified stream. For a specific example, the data for KABB, the fox affiliate in San Antonio, is there. Without the channel map, however, there is no way for the TiVo to know which of the thousands of timeslots on the system is carrying KABB, and as I pointed out, the actual timeslot on the east side of town may be different than the one on the west side of town.

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This makes the clear QAM channel useless except for live TV and manual recordings.
Not if you have a CableCard, part of whose job is telling the TiVo which channel is assigned to which bitstream. Of course, with SDV, this information is perfectly dynamic, potentially changing from moment to moment. On a linear QAM, it is fixed by the provisioning at the headend or hubsite, but it is not necessarily the same across the entire CATV system, and can definitely be changed by the engineers at a moment's notice, with no need to notify Tribune. (In fact, they never would.)

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How exactly do you arrive at that incredible statement?
It's not incredible. It is simply a fact. Indeed, I believe the Moxi allowed the user to do that, and I know for a fact it can be done on a modified TiVo. I'm pretty sure HTPCs can, as well, but in every such case, it must be done manually, since there is no way for the computer to obtain the info. The TiVo can find timeslots without the aid of the CableCard. Doing so is the function of the receiver, not the CableCard. Indeed, some CATV companies send out their SDV streams - or at least some of them - in the clear. On such systems, by manually searching up and down the bitstreams, the user without a CableCard can sometimes find an SDV channel and watch it until suddenly it will disappear. The person may be able to discern fairly easily what the channel he found might be, and in the case of a linear QAM the assignment may be metastatic. The TiVo has no way at all to discern which content is being delivered on that timeslot without either a CableCard or a user to tell it. Digging into the MFS file system just a bit, one can quite easily read the channel info and assign it to an arbitrary stream, at which point the information appears in the guide display and can be used as one normally does to assign Season Passes, one time recordings, etc.

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No, the Tivo is designed to be used in any manner I see fit to use it.
You are certainly free to use the TiVo any way you can manage, including using it as a doorstop or frying pan. That does not make it wise for TiVo to modify their design so it makes a better doorstop or frying pan, either from an engineering perspective or a financial one. I'm the very first person in the front of the line when it comes to modifying my equipment to suit my desires and the manufacturers be damned, but I am absolutely the last to support prostituting a good engineering design to suit the tastes of users who have no idea what unintended consequences implementing their desires will have.

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Not really. What I want is a single, uniform set of standards that must be met by every single manufacturer of TV receivers and every single source of TV content, including satellite, CATV, FIOS, and yes, even OTA. Those standards should be set by an independent, unbiased standards organization, not by a consortium of CATV companies, and the designs should be based upon solid engineering principles, not upon whether the MPAA, Madison Avenue or Sony likes them. And yes, to a certain extent whether any particular group of users particularly likes the results or not.

Do I really need to remind you how you did not want to read the metadata for a highlighted entry in KMTTG in order to provide the OAD for a series episode because it did not fit well with your and moyekj's design paradigm? I could have howled and screamed about your refusal to pursue the matter, but I did not. Choosing to circumvent the spirit and intent of CableCard specifications is far more fundamental than choosing whether to spend more time requesting and reading the metadata for specific entries in the NPL.

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Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
The fact that some users wish to avoid the idiotic "additional digital outlet" fees by foregoing a CableCARD should and could be supported by TiVo.
"Idiotic" is an emotionally charged term, and really has no proper place in an engineering discussion. (Not that I have not been guilty of using it myself in the past.) What's a bad idea is making official allowances for people to save a few pennies by implementing bad design. That said, many CATV companies do have unacceptable fees attached to CableCards. Someone, somewhere, should enforce reasonable charges for CableCards and place a cap on how much one may be charged over time for a PCMCIA card that costs the CATV company far less than $50. I'm not sure who really has the authority to do so, however. Unlike DVRs and STBs, CATV companies have no financial reason to want people to rent CableCards. They would much rather they did not exist, so there is little incentive not to jack up their profit margins close to the 4 digit mark.

Last edited by lrhorer : 09-04-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:24 PM   #28
lrhorer
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Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
I wish you two could learn how not always wind up squabbling because I learn so much from both of you.
Oh, come now. I can't speak for lpwcomp, but I am certainly not upset or angry, and a good debate can be spirited without being acrimonious. A good disagreement between two people of good faith can not only be an excellent way for everyone involved to learn, it can be a great deal of fun. Certainly I am not offended or hurt by anything lpwcomp has said. If he were being disingenuous or deliberately obtuse, I might well be offended, but he is unquestionably not, so my respect for him remains high, the fact I disagree with much of what he is saying here totally notwithstanding.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:30 PM   #29
lrhorer
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Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boneless View Post
I pay only for analog stations which I do receive correctly and do receive guide data.
You do realize that as of earlier this year, the CATV companies have been allowed by the FCC to eliminate all analog channels, and that probably sooner rather than later all those channels will be gone? Taking their place can be several hundred digital channels.

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Originally Posted by Boneless View Post
I'm located in Honolulu, HI with Time Warner
Ooh. They have one of the worst reps in the forum. 'Sorry.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:10 AM   #30
Boneless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonz View Post
You are going to channel list and putting the check mark on that channel, or is it not there for you to check?
It's not there for me to check mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
If all the channels for which you are authorized are analog, what is the box for?

The box is for the series 1 which is not affecting anything I'm asking about the series 3. In fact It's probably redundant since I don't receive anything on it that I don't already receive. I'll need to think that through in my head later.


Both scans (antenna and cable) fail to find the HD version of the Fox affiliate? The only thing it finds is the cable SD version?

Yes both scans, but both can find the SD version


Can you give me an example of channel no. that you tune to on the S3 for which you get guide data? What numbers do you enter by hand to tune to the Fox HD channel? What does the channel list say about that channel?


My fox affiliate is channel 3 and can get guide data. I have to enter 46-3 to get the HD OTA fox affiliate and it doesn't show on the channel list at all. The info bar only says "cbl" and "to be announced" for guide data. But it does show the resolution at 720p so I know it's the HD OTA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
You do realize that as of earlier this year, the CATV companies have been allowed by the FCC to eliminate all analog channels, and that probably sooner rather than later all those channels will be gone? Taking their place can be several hundred digital channels.

Ooh. They have one of the worst reps in the forum. 'Sorry.
Until that time, there are plenty of people still on analog. My parents being one of them even though they just bought a 55" HDTV. I'll play it by ear as what to do if those analogs ever get removed. Our local telephone co just started tv service this summer and they have some tempting offers.
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