The Tivo Mini lives....

[teklock]

I keep hearing this argument whether or not the mini will be subscription based. According to this video, it clearly indicates it will be a paid service and they’re even going to have a lifetime subscription for the Mini.

engadget.cXm/2013/01/08/tivo-mini-extender-hands-on/

[aaronwt]

I just wish TiVo would just hurry up and release the Mini. And while they're at it, enable Android support for the Stream too. I've got some Best Buy gift cards set aside to purchase the Mini and Stream.

[DaveDFW]

Originally Posted by teklock

I keep hearing this argument whether or not the mini will be subscription based.

No one is arguing that the Tivo representative did not state that. But a person paid to demonstrate a product at a trade show making a statement does not necessarily make that statement authoritative.

However, most of the arguments here center around whether such a subscription fee is warranted, and assuming a fee will be required what would a reasonable price be.

[Dan203]

Originally Posted by Philmatic

they are displaying a laptop with the familiar TiVo seek interface. Windows/Desktop app refresh? Also could be a bad photoshop with no relation to reality.

That would be nice. TiVo Desktop is way old and sorely in need of an overhaul.

[davezatz]

Suddenlink tells me the TiVo Mini is now available to most of their customers. The month lease fees runs $6-$11 depending on region (and package/bundle?).

[TivoQueensDad]

Originally Posted by davezatz

Suddenlink tells me the TiVo Mini is now available to most of their customers. The month lease fees runs $6-$11 depending on region (and package/bundle?).

They are advertising it on their website -->
http://www.suddenlink.com/anyroom/

Cable companies have made a fortune off of "outlet" fees which is what this effectively is. Kind of like the phone companies charging for texting - no / little cost to them and a pure profit.

For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....

I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.

[tatergator1]

In the past, when I would run numbers on the break even points of the various Tivo's with lifetime compared to the monthly fee of a similar box from the cable co., the break even for a box plus discounted PLS was always in the range of 24-30 months. Taking the mid point of the Suddenlink pricing range, or $8.50 per month and the average break-even point, I would guess the One-Time fee price of the retail Mini will be $225 to $250. Maybe that translates to $75 box + $6.95 monthly.

[TivoQueensDad]

Originally Posted by TivoQueensDad

They are advertising it on their website -->
http://www.suddenlink.com/anyroom/

Cable companies have made a fortune off of "outlet" fees which is what this effectively is. Kind of like the phone companies charging for texting - no / little cost to them and a pure profit.

For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....

I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.

Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Televisio...ckGuide_r1.pdf

Sounds like they may have solved the borrowing a tuner issue -->

Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
TVs — anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
picks a show or channel to display; and it “tunes” to it. Your
TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
“borrows” a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.

[Philmatic]

Interesting!

[Loach]

Originally Posted by TivoQueensDad

Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Televisio...ckGuide_r1.pdf

Sounds like they may have solved the borrowing a tuner issue -->

Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
TVs — anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
picks a show or channel to display; and it “tunes” to it. Your
TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
“borrows” a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.

It sort of sounds like dynamic "borrowing" - but I doubt that is what it really means.

[TivoQueensDad]

Originally Posted by tatergator1

In the past, when I would run numbers on the break even points of the various Tivo's with lifetime compared to the monthly fee of a similar box from the cable co., the break even for a box plus discounted PLS was always in the range of 24-30 months. Taking the mid point of the Suddenlink pricing range, or $8.50 per month and the average break-even point, I would guess the One-Time fee price of the retail Mini will be $225 to $250. Maybe that translates to $75 box + $6.95 monthly.

I run a comparison every year between cable / satellite TV...Put it all in a spreadsheet with current price for cable (internet and phone) vs equivalent service with DirecTV or DISH....Then I call my cable company and make a deal. This year, they didn't give a great price, but I stayed hoping I'd be able to upgrade to Tivo....Given a high cost for a mini, I expect cable plus Tivo plus Tivo mini won't be cost competitive to satellite - and both DISH and DirecTV have pretty nice DVR offerings (both whole home, built in Slingbox for DISH, auto-record of all 4 networks prime-time on DISH, 6 tuner or DirecTV) with no initial outlay.

[Tony Chick]

Your installer will set up the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini."

That doesn't exactly sound dynamic, unless the installer is going to move in with you

[sbiller]

Originally Posted by TivoQueensDad

Full manual for the mini is online at http://help.suddenlink.com/Televisio...ckGuide_r1.pdf

Sounds like they may have solved the borrowing a tuner issue -->

Tuner. A tuner is a device found inside set top boxes, DVRs,
TVs — anything designed to receive TV signals. A tuner is what
lets you watch a specific channel or video on demand show. It
picks a show or channel to display; and it “tunes” to it. Your
TiVo Mini does not have its own tuner inside. Instead, when you
want to watch TV or video on demand, your TiVo Mini
“borrows” a tuner from the host DVR. Your installer will set up
the host to share a tuner when he/she installs your TiVo Mini.

I think this could be interpreted in multiple ways. I think the comment about the installer setting it up to "borrow" a tuner means that the tuner will be dedicated to one or more Mini's in the home.

[DaveDFW]

Originally Posted by sbiller

I think this could be interpreted in multiple ways. I think the comment about the installer setting it up to "borrow" a tuner means that the tuner will be dedicated to one or more Mini's in the home.

I agree. "Borrow" in this context is probably a euphemism for "permanently borrow" until Tivo gets around to implementing dynamic tuner allocation.

[innocentfreak]

Originally Posted by TivoQueensDad

For a standalone / non-cable mini, a fee of $6-$11 is insane....Want to stream to your phone - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to your iPad - no problem - it's free. Want to stream to another TV? Give us around $100 a year and we'll let you do that.....

I'm sure Tivo doesn't want to antagonize their cable partners, but they're losing customers like me with decisions like this.

I don't think a $6 fee is that insane especially coming from a cable company. DTAs usually lease for a couple dollars at least and they only let you see live TV.

I also don't think you can compare streaming to your phone or tablet since neither of those require hardware. If you could do it without the Mini, they would have a difficult time charging since as you said the rest is already given away for free.

Of course with the some of the Android devices out there with might see that ability added to the home, but you would still need to buy the hardware.

[sbiller]

Originally Posted by innocentfreak

I don't think a $6 fee is that insane especially coming from a cable company. DTAs usually lease for a couple dollars at least and they only let you see live TV.

I also don't think you can compare streaming to your phone or tablet since neither of those require hardware. If you could do it without the Mini, they would have a difficult time charging since as you said the rest is already given away for free.

Of course with the some of the Android devices out there with might see that ability added to the home, but you would still need to buy the hardware.

DTAs on Verizon FiOS are 6.99/mo.

[DaveDFW]

Doesn't Suddenlink lease Streams to its customers for around $10 per month?

If both the Stream and Mini can be leased for the same amount, shouldn't that translate to similar pricing of the two products at retail?

[Dan203]

While the Stream is great for watching shows on my iPad it's not really the same experience as watching a show via MRS. The only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip and every press takes a couple seconds to register and start playing again, so skipping past commercials or backing up to hear what someone said is not quite as fluid as it is when streaming via MRS.

TiVo may decide to support the Stream on other devices some day (i.e. Roku, Google TV, etc...) but even if they do it wont be the same experience as having a real Mini. The Mini will be more like an extension of the primary TiVo. As close to sitting in front of the TiVo as you can get while streaming over a network. I think in most cases people will still prefer the Mini except perhaps those that are really hung up on saving a few bucks.

[sbiller]

Originally Posted by Dan203

While the Stream is great for watching shows on my iPad it's not really the same experience as watching a show via MRS. The only trick play options are IR and 30 second skip and every press takes a couple seconds to register and start playing again, so skipping past commercials or backing up to hear what someone said is not quite as fluid as it is when streaming via MRS.

TiVo may decide to support the Stream on other devices some day (i.e. Roku, Google TV, etc...) but even if they do it wont be the same experience as having a real Mini. The Mini will be more like an extension of the primary TiVo. As close to sitting in front of the TiVo as you can get while streaming over a network. I think in most cases people will still prefer the Mini except perhaps those that are really hung up on saving a few bucks.

Very true. I see the use case for a Roku or Smart TV app as a way to stream TiVo shows to a television in a room that isn't used that often. In my case, my daughters room. She's away at college so her TV goes used on weekend visits or during the summer. Presently, that Tv is Roku-only.

[Philmatic]

I don't think they will ever support the use of a TiVo Stream outside the Tablet/Phone/PC environment. In their mind, why would they sell you a product that cannibalizes the sale of a product that they are offering (Mini). If you have a TV to hook up to, buy a Mini, if you are using it on some other device that you take with you, buy a Stream.

[sbiller]

Originally Posted by Philmatic

I don't think they will ever support the use of a TiVo Stream outside the Tablet/Phone/PC environment. In their mind, why would they sell you a product that cannibalizes the sale of a product that they are offering (Mini). If you have a TV to hook up to, buy a Mini, if you are using it on some other device that you take with you, buy a Stream.

TiVo is deploying a soft-TiVo solution to Com Hem later this year that will work on Smart TVs. The purpose of the Mini is to reduce churn and gain new subscribers. A TiVo App on a Smart TV or Roku would support the same goal.

[NotNowChief]

Originally Posted by sbiller

TiVo is deploying a soft-TiVo solution to Com Hem later this year that will work on Smart TVs. The purpose of the Mini is to reduce churn and gain new subscribers. A TiVo App on a Smart TV or Roku would support the same goal.

This is just ridiculous and insulting. You'd think before implementing MORE new things, they would iron out all their pending stuff first, like Android support for the Stream, and the Mini.

[Dan203]

You seem to think that TiVo is only capable of working on one thing at a time. That's a bad assumption. I did some work for TiVo once. The only in house development they did was for the primary product. Everything else was farmed out to 3rd parties, like me, because there isn't enough work for them to employ a full time staff of specialized developers. The Mini is likely being worked on by the in house team, but Android support, Roku support, etc... would likely all be farmed out to 3rd party development firms.

[davezatz]

Originally Posted by Dan203

The only in house development they did was for the primary product. Everything else was farmed out to 3rd parties, like me, because there isn't enough work for them to employ a full time staff of specialized developers. The Mini is likely being worked on by the in house team, but Android support, Roku support, etc... would likely all be farmed out to 3rd party development firms.

Which is also why various TiVo products stagnate and die without a dedicated development team. The Rhapsody app and TiVo Desktop come to mind.

[sbiller]

I'm fairly optimistic regarding what we'll see from TiVo this year. The company has been investing over $100 million / year. Until recently, a significant portion of that was focused on plumbing/infrastructure.

[Philmatic]

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-02/...hes-tivo-mini/

Unfortunately, according to this support note, dynamic tuner allocation hasn’t yet been enabled and each TiVo Mini permanently locks up one of the hub DVR’s four tuners, with a maximum of two client Minis virtually hanging off a single 4-tuner Premiere. In fact, we have it on good authority that at least one TiVo partner will not move forward with a TiVo Mini deployment until a more flexible configuration is provided. Related, much of the industry is moving to a 6-tuner configuration – as we’ve seen from Cox and Verizon FiOS. So perhaps that 6-tuner Pace DVR displayed in TiVo’s Cable Show booth will further provide a more robust whole-home solution in the near future.

[davezatz]

Originally Posted by Philmatic

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2395

Yeah, it says "dedicate" a tuner and "One to two tuners are allocated for use by the TiVo Mini". The note was updated 2/1/13.

[jjd_87]

I have a Premiere 4 and have SL for my cable. I'd love to think that I could call up and rent just the Mini for a few months until it comes out for retail customers. But they had a hard enough time just putting my cable card in I'm not about to deal with that headache again.

[sbiller]

Originally Posted by jjd_87

I have a Premiere 4 and have SL for my cable. I'd love to think that I could call up and rent just the Mini for a few months until it comes out for retail customers. But they had a hard enough time just putting my cable card in I'm not about to deal with that headache again.

I suspect they would install a Premiere-Q with a Mini and enable the communication between the two boxes via MoCA. I doubt SL would install a Mini without your purchase of a whole home package that includes the Q. It would be interesting to find out the requirements... The nice side-effect of it all is they would ensure that MoCA is working in your home, install the PoE filter, change splitters to higher band-pass filters, etc.

[aaronwt]

So are we possibly getting close to an announcement for release of the Mini at retail?

I really just want a Mini so I can put it in my bedroom where I rarely watch TV and move the monthly Premiere that is currently in the bedroom to a location that makes it easier for me to disconnect and connect everything. Since that is the box I take with me to my GFs house for us to watch shows from.