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Old 01-24-2013, 08:15 AM   #691
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...and switching back and forth between those apps and the TiVo app would get annoying really quickly.
What's so hard about switching apps? Either hold the Home button or swipe four fingers to bring up the list.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:34 AM   #692
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What's so hard about switching apps? Either hold the Home button or swipe four fingers to bring up the list.
I prefer not having to look at the "remote" to use it. That's why I like the Slide remote.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:57 AM   #693
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Until TiVo can offer a solution that doesn't require renting anything from the pay TV provider or any more work than just plugging in the coax cable then they will not have a product that is acceptable to the general public regardless of price.
I don't see that happening anytime soon. The pay TV providers will fight tooth and nail against having to allow 3rd party devices unfettered access to their cable system.
The only reason cable companies tolerate TiVo now is because the FCC makes them.

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cable companies want something they can rent and make money off.

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Old 01-24-2013, 10:14 AM   #694
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It is getting interesting.
Verizon, for example, has a limited base since they have to run fiber.
They are already expanding into IPTV since they have the technology to deliver programming.

Change is coming...

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Old 01-24-2013, 01:01 PM   #695
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Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:16 PM   #696
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Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.
For that to happen cable companies will have to believe they will be able to make more money from IP delivery system than they are now. Near term I find that fairly unlikely the vast majority of homes only have one cable going to them and the cable company owns it. So no reason to change.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:20 PM   #697
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For that to happen cable companies will have to believe they will be able to make more money from IP delivery system than they are now. Near term I find that fairly unlikely the vast majority of homes only have one cable going to them and the cable company owns it. So no reason to change.
Exactly, most people depend on cable for internet. Even people that don't have cable tv. That's why cable companies are putting caps on their internet.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:45 PM   #698
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One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.
They tried that. Look at LiquidPTV:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45

It was a full tivo on a PC, including guide data. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't make it
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:22 PM   #699
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They tried that. Look at LiquidPTV:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45

It was a full tivo on a PC, including guide data. I thought it was pretty cool, but didn't make it
That was put down by MediaCenter and the emergence of CableCARDs. MediaCenter was free, LiquidTV cost up front and per month IIRRC. Plus still to this day MCE is the only software allowed to record from CableCARDs. There were a few other MCE alternatives back in the day that were basically put out of business by CableCARDs.

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Old 01-24-2013, 04:28 PM   #700
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Also liquidTV was done by Ahead who all but disappeared around that time. It was around the time Nero started sucking.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:34 PM   #701
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Agreed - it's only a matter of time now before we won't need STBs at all. Tivo should see the writing on the wall here and realize that we eventually won't need to 'tune' anything - we'll have IP clients with DVR software on multiple platforms, including some new players that roll their own DVRs once we get past the Cablecard kludge. The only question is whether it will be the cableCos giving up control over the end-user interface by adopting standard IP access or whether it will be new content providers (e.g. Apple) in the market delivering it to us over IP.

IP clients would be great, but like was mentioned by another poster, I don't see this money making machine being voluntarily abandoned by cable companies. It is a cash cow.

Also, I admit I'm not an Apple devotee, but I feel like I can objectively state that Apple will not crack the TV market as many people hope they will do. The content providers and service providers like money and don't want to share it with Apple. Allowing Apple access to this market would be like gifting them billions of dollars with little benefit to them. They have zero incentive to offer Apple access to their very lucrative market.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:41 PM   #702
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That was put down by MediaCenter and the emergence of CableCARDs. MediaCenter was free, LiquidTV cost up front and per month IIRRC.
It wasn't just that it came with cost, but it sucked in general and was inferior to (the free) Media Center. Also, I think some of the intent had been a way to expand internationally, but obviously the uptake was abysmal enough that they let it die. TiVo probably didn't care too much as they still got paid by Nero in some form and their brand wasn't really hurt. Kinda like the Comcast Motorola TiVo - they got paid for the R&D despite it sucking and being ****canned. Although they lost out on whatever subscriber deal they may have had in place.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:01 PM   #703
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IP clients would be great, but like was mentioned by another poster, I don't see this money making machine being voluntarily abandoned by cable companies. It is a cash cow.
TWC has claimed that STBs are on their way out and that they don't make any money on them. If that's true, why aren't others on the bandwagon to give us a way forward without them? And if they're going to go all-IP as they claim, why do we need their gateways other than for non-IP enabled TVs? Why can't we just stream what we want from their servers?

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/set...way/2011-05-02
http://stopthecap.com/2012/08/02/tim...vrbox-changes/
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #704
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TWC has claimed that STBs are on their way out and that they don't make any money on them. If that's true, why aren't they on the bandwagon to give us a way forward without them?

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/set...way/2011-05-02
http://stopthecap.com/2012/08/02/tim...vrbox-changes/
STB will go away but not the home gateway. You can bet they will charge and charge for that device.

They want to maximize their profits so they will do whatever is in their best interests. If they can find a way to keep or expand their profits while giving alternatives an opening then they will.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:53 AM   #705
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:22 PM   #706
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I have no problem with a monthly fee. It just depends on the price. At $5 a month I might go monthly. but it also depends on the lifetime price. At $8 I would not go monthly since I'm only paying $6.95 a month for my two tuner Premiere. And I see no point in paying a higher monthly price for Mini than I am paying for a two tuner Premiere. But you never know. If lifetime is outrageously priced then I won't have a choice but to go monthly.
This is the entire problem. The Tivo Mini does NOT HAVE A TUNER. It is using a tuner from the main Tivo box, on which I have ALREADY paid my fee.

Why on earth would a 'dumb' client like the Mini require a monthly fee? It's not like Mini has a tuner and is recording onto the Tivo is it?

If it is, they're doing it wrong. Those situations would justify a 2nd Tivo, but clients to consume media don't need tuners, their source is the tuner.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:35 PM   #707
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This is the entire problem. The Tivo Mini does NOT HAVE A TUNER. It is using a tuner from the main Tivo box, on which I have ALREADY paid my fee.

Why on earth would a 'dumb' client like the Mini require a monthly fee? It's not like Mini has a tuner and is recording onto the Tivo is it?

If it is, they're doing it wrong. Those situations would justify a 2nd Tivo, but clients to consume media don't need tuners, their source is the tuner.
Your reasoning really doesn't matter. The Mini will obviate the need for multiple Tivos in a household. Tivo will charge SOMETHING to make up for this loss.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #708
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Your reasoning really doesn't matter. The Mini will obviate the need for multiple Tivos in a household. Tivo will charge SOMETHING to make up for this loss.
If they were intelligent they would sell the Mini's as a loss leader to sell more big expensive Premiere boxes.

The loss is Media Center's cheap client solution and then they sell zero Tivos...
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:02 PM   #709
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If they were intelligent they would sell the Mini's as a loss leader to sell more big expensive Premiere boxes.

The loss is Media Center's cheap client solution and then they sell zero Tivos...
Exactly!!
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:37 PM   #710
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I don't think there is enough profit in a Premiere box for that to work. In fact I'm pretty sure the Premiere hardware is already subsidized so that they don't even break even until after a year of service payments.

I don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about the prospect of a service fee. For all we know a Mini with lifetime could cost $100. Probably not, but the point is we don't know so there is no reason to get upset about it now.

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:00 PM   #711
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I don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about the prospect of a service fee.
Because it sends a clear signal that this is not positioned as the accessory for a Premiere that makes a Premiere more desirable and competitive. It is just another product that has to provide enough profit on its own because they think they will be losing out on an additional Premiere sale.

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For all we know a Mini with lifetime could cost $100. Probably not, but the point is we don't know so there is no reason to get upset about it now.
We don't have to know the price to know the "attitude" or "flavor" of the offering. Combined with the ridiculous 4 tuner requirement, it is obvious that people like me are being shut out. It also doesn't help that TiVo is dragging this out forever.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:08 PM   #712
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I want a mini so I don't have to pay Comcast $89.40 a year for the discounted additional outlet fee to use the TiVo in my bedroom. If they charge $100 for lifetime it would be almost a wash for me after a year if it is $200 then 2 years, etc. To not have a subscription fee would be great, but we all should have known that would never happen. Once the dynamic tuner allocation is released it will make more sense to prospective buyers. Having to sacrifice a tuner on my XL4 will suck until this is a reality or a six tuner is released. I just hope they release it within the next couple months.

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:25 PM   #713
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My guess is they will charge half the subscription price for the Mini, $7.50 a month or $250 for lifetime. If you are a current subscriber they will give you a 20% discount on the lifetime fee or $200. My guess on the hardware cost would be similar to the Stream $130-$150. So I think their marketing pitch will be the cost savings of the Mini with their discounted subscription & the cost savings of not having to pay your provider for additional outlets, cable cards &/or tuning adapters. If I wasn't being charged monthly by Comcast for an outlet fee, I'd just keep my 2 tuner Premiere w/PLS & not sacrifice anything. I just hate paying Comcast anymore money that I will never see again. At least with a TiVo with PLS you can recoup most of your expenses if you decide to part ways.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #714
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$350-$400 for a box with no tuner, no hard drive, that does nothing but play back TiVo recordings in another room and allow for the theft of a tuner from the main TiVo? A box that won't have as many online premium services as a $50 Roku?

If they do that they are idiots.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:05 PM   #715
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$350-$400 for a box with no tuner, no hard drive, that does nothing but play back TiVo recordings in another room and allow for the theft of a tuner from the main TiVo? A box that won't have as many online premium services as a $50 Roku?

If they do that they are idiots.
I'm betting it's gonna be more like $250-$300 with lifetime. He may be right on the prices for the service fees but I'm betting the initial hardware price is lower. For the Stream there is no fee so they have to make money on the hardware. If they treat the Mini like a regular TiVo then they will subsidize the hardware and make up the money on the subscription. You can get a full blown Premiere for $100 from Amazon. If they charge more then that for a Mini then it will be DOA.

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Old 01-30-2013, 08:18 PM   #716
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We will see (at this rate in July).
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:51 PM   #717
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I'm betting it's gonna be more like $250-$300 with lifetime. He may be right on the prices for the service fees but I'm betting the initial hardware price is lower. For the Stream there is no fee so they have to make money on the hardware. If they treat the Mini like a regular TiVo then they will subsidize the hardware and make up the money on the subscription. You can get a full blown Premiere for $100 from Amazon. If they charge more then that for a Mini then it will be DOA.

Dan
I hope that they will charge somewhere between $50-$100 for the hardware, that will definitely make it more worth it to ditch my 2 tuner. Especially since I only paid $60 for a brand new 320GB Premiere during their last sale. I am looking at the long terms savings of the Mini plus PLS & being able to recoup most of what I spent on my Premiere. I originally thought like most how can they charge a subscription fee for a device that is borrowing from a device I already paid a subscription for? But I get it, all of the other providers don't give you companion boxes for free. You may get a promo deal but you will be paying for them one way or another or sooner than later.

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Old 01-30-2013, 09:51 PM   #718
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I'm betting $250-$300 w/ Lifetime, $150-$200 when purchased with a new Premiere 4 or XL4 Bundle
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:12 PM   #719
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For anything over $200 w/ Lifetime I won't be jumping on it anytime soon (and I'm guessing initial price will be >= $250 w/Lifetime). Let others debug all the issues and wait for about 6 months or so for the price to drop to ~ $150 range. I've got a lifetime S3 OLED I could sell and apply money towards Lifetime for an unsubbed Premiere unit I have lying around that seems like a better option if Mini is priced that high. Even without cablecard a real Premiere unit could still do everything and more than a Mini with no monthly fees to cable company.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:24 PM   #720
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For anything over $200 w/ Lifetime I won't be jumping on it anytime soon (and I'm guessing initial price will be >= $250 w/Lifetime). Let others debug all the issues and wait for about 6 months or so for the price to drop to ~ $150 range. I've got a lifetime S3 OLED I could sell and apply money towards Lifetime for an unsubbed Premiere unit I have lying around that seems like a better option if Mini is priced that high. Even without cablecard a real Premiere unit could still do everything and more than a Mini with no monthly fees to cable company.
Comcast charges me $9.95 for an additional outlet for my second TiVo & gives me a $2.50 credit for customer owned equipment. Over time this will add up to hundreds of $ I'd rather not give them & never get back. That is the only reason I would even consider the Mini. Otherwise I only have $500 invested in my Premiere with PLS & a 3 year warranty. Not a big price difference between what we are projecting the Mini to cost with PLS.
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