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Old 08-21-2012, 08:20 AM   #61
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Until someone can prove otherwise, I will continue to think it is foolish to assume someone/everyone who isn't willing to pay for cable/satellite automatically isn't willing to pay for a DVR and isn't interested in a good DVR.
I totally agree with you on this. Currently I have Dish Network, but I do have an ota usb tuner connected to a pc w/ Media Center. I was using it as a ota dvr before we signed with Dish 2 /12 years ago. I've had it for about 5 years now and still use it to record hd programs on local channels that Dish doesn't broadcast in hd. We also have a Panasonic DMR-EH75V dvd recorder that was used as a dvr before the digital transition was completed. It's currently used to archive shows from my 722K dvr. And of course there was the trusty vcr before that. Nearly a decade ago we also paid around $400 to get a roof top antenna installed. So I spent a decent amount of cash to record tv before we ever had pay-tv.

Now that are kids are doing their own thing, my wife and I have been thinking about dropping Dish to go back to the ota and streaming model (we have had Netflix for quite some time now). So I've been investigating to see which will work out better for us, Tivo or adding a couple of pc tuners. Once again we're willing to spend upfront to save in the long run.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:43 AM   #62
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It's kind of interesting this debate on whether Tivo views OTA clients as valulable and that their focus is on cable/satellite subscribers. As an OTA Tivo user, I was actually surprised to hear that the primary market is within the cable/satellite community. I never would have guessed that.

I figure most cable users use the DVR from their provider. To get them to switch from that DVR to Tivo, you'd have to expose them to Tivo, demonstrate that it's superior, and convince them it's worth extra money on top of what they're already paying.

For instance, my dad is a cable subscriber with a Cox DVR which costs $10/month. If he were to switch to Tivo, he'd be paying $17/month (15 tivo + 2 cable card) plus the cost of the Tivo box itself. Even if you go the lifetime service approach, it'd take 6 years to break even on service costs alone. An extra $7/month seems like a lot just to improve your DVR experience. My dad has seem my Tivo and he finds it interesting, but not nearly enough pay more and switch from his current setup.

So from that perspective, I don't understand why cable people use Tivo unless they're rich or if their provider's DVR is utterly inadequate. I would've have thought the bigger market would be OTA people since Tivo is almost the only viable DVR option for them. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the majority of people still watch live tv.

I'm not disputing the cable market is bigger. I was just surprised to hear it.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:14 AM   #63
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i am a cable cutter going on 2 years now and i have enough disposable income to pay for tv, i choose not to because it is not valuable to ME and MY FAMILY. I have 3 lifetimed tivos, a 3k main tv with a 7.1 sound system, the issue for us was not about the money. 90+% of what we watch is OTA and now with a 15 month old, we had no time nor did it make sense to pay for tv. That was especially reinforced when i figured out how to watch MLB without blackouts. I will be looking at the tivo mini if they get the premiere tuner issue fixed and i will buy the tivo 5 if such thing comes out for ota.

the one upside of this for us is that our daughter will be raised without the temptation of commercials and kid marketing assaults that you see on Nick jr. at 15 months, she knows that netflix is where her backyardigans, barney and sesame street are and she can watch it anytime without the temptation of whatever super sugary drink or cereal is a must have.

The $150 i save from tv/internet (work pays for internet), goes to the college fund.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:29 AM   #64
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i am a cable cutter going on 2 years now and i have enough disposable income to pay for tv, i choose not to because it is not valuable to ME and MY FAMILY. I have 3 lifetimed tivos, a 3k main tv with a 7.1 sound system, the issue for us was not about the money. 90+% of what we watch is OTA and now with a 15 month old, we had no time nor did it make sense to pay for tv. That was especially reinforced when i figured out how to watch MLB without blackouts. I will be looking at the tivo mini if they get the premiere tuner issue fixed and i will buy the tivo 5 if such thing comes out for ota.

the one upside of this for us is that our daughter will be raised without the temptation of commercials and kid marketing assaults that you see on Nick jr. at 15 months, she knows that netflix is where her backyardigans, barney and sesame street are and she can watch it anytime without the temptation of whatever super sugary drink or cereal is a must have.

The $150 i save from tv/internet (work pays for internet), goes to the college fund.
How do you watch MLB without blackouts
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:32 AM   #65
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Why don't you Google "cord cutting movement" and you will see the poster is correct in statement the movement is about saving money. Or you can just continue to think that you're the center of the universe, and that your situation is the rule and not the exception. That seems to be working out well for you thus far.
I'm sure many cord-cutters are motivated by the savings. But many also feel that a dozen or more OTA channels, including all the major networks, is sufficient, especially now that it can be supplemented by streaming. A lot of it is garbage anyway. How much more do you want to pay to move up to 150 channels of mostly garbage? And then there's the cable pricing structure. Someone isn't going to be OK with getting mugged just because he has a lot more money in the bank than in his wallet so he can afford it.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:48 AM   #66
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How do you watch MLB without blackouts
with unblock-us.com. $5 a month or $50 a year. its a dns service and it works great. it doesnt slow down your connection like vpn. It even gives me full access to the BBC iplayer and it allows you to pick which netflix streaming catalog you want, either US, UK, Ireland, canada.

you change the dns settings on the device like apple tv or on the router level so everything in the network has access to it.

here is a list of supported sites but these are mostly for people out of the country that want to access US based stuff. I only use it for BBC iplayer and MLB.

http://support.unblock-us.com/custom...upported-sites
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:15 AM   #67
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Until someone can prove otherwise, I will continue to think it is foolish to assume someone/everyone who isn't willing to pay for cable/satellite automatically isn't willing to pay for a DVR and isn't interested in a good DVR.
I think it is also foolish to think TiVo doesn't know if it is economically feasible to continue supporting OTA. They know more than anyone if OTA users are willing to pay for a premium DVR. They have the data and are able to see where the trends are.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:20 AM   #68
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You know I don't want to come off as a ass but I know I am so sorry in advance.

I am so tired of cord cutters crying about Tivo not loving them, the whole point of cutting the cord is saving money, it would be stupid to invest in cord cutters for they are by definition not interested in spending money.

there is no device that I can find capable of recording 4 programs OTA, so why would Tivo invest in creating it from scratch?

Also you stated you have a series 3 Tivo HD what is you want that would make you upgrade to a premiere 4 tuners or something else?

Once again not trying to be a ass, I just don't get what you and a lot of other cord cutters want.
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You have no data to support that....

...

The same thing people who purchase cable or Satellite want. Why would you think that the source of someone's TV changes what they want in a DVR?

Indeed. My reasons are primarily to save money. I cancelled DTV, bought a Premiere with Lifetime service, (not cheap) but in the end will wind up saving a lot of money. If I felt that the value I received was worth the money I was spending on pay TV, I'd have kept it. I'm not cheap for the sake of being cheap. I'm more concerned with the value I'm getting for what I use. And I didn't use much of the Pay TV channels. So why would I throw away money for no good reason?
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:26 AM   #69
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I think it is also foolish to think TiVo doesn't know if it is economically feasible to continue supporting OTA. They know more than anyone if OTA users are willing to pay for a premium DVR. They have the data and are able to see where the trends are.
Remember last fall the OTA only $10 per month Premiere deal?

I wonder how much response that got.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:40 AM   #70
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If I had a 4 tuner Tivo, I'd still need 2 more Tivo's to share the content with 2 additional TVs. The 4 tuner tivo might resolve a few scheduling conflicts, but the cost isn't worth it to me. The 2 tuner Tivos find more programming than I have time to watch as it is. Plus, MRV works with all OTA channels, so I don't need streaming.
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Old 08-21-2012, 12:08 PM   #71
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It's kind of interesting this debate on whether Tivo views OTA clients as valulable and that their focus is on cable/satellite subscribers. As an OTA Tivo user, I was actually surprised to hear that the primary market is within the cable/satellite community. I never would have guessed that.

I figure most cable users use the DVR from their provider. To get them to switch from that DVR to Tivo, you'd have to expose them to Tivo, demonstrate that it's superior, and convince them it's worth extra money on top of what they're already paying.

For instance, my dad is a cable subscriber with a Cox DVR which costs $10/month. If he were to switch to Tivo, he'd be paying $17/month (15 tivo + 2 cable card) plus the cost of the Tivo box itself. Even if you go the lifetime service approach, it'd take 6 years to break even on service costs alone. An extra $7/month seems like a lot just to improve your DVR experience. My dad has seem my Tivo and he finds it interesting, but not nearly enough pay more and switch from his current setup.

So from that perspective, I don't understand why cable people use Tivo unless they're rich or if their provider's DVR is utterly inadequate. I would've have thought the bigger market would be OTA people since Tivo is almost the only viable DVR option for them. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the majority of people still watch live tv.

I'm not disputing the cable market is bigger. I was just surprised to hear it.
$10 for a dvr is on the low end of the cabelco spectrum. Is that a sd or hd model? I know that Comcast has HD DVR's for $16 - $18 per month, so going with a Tivo w/lifetime makes more sense. I've always considered Tivo's to be "luxury" products anyway. Same reason people buy BMW's when a Hyundai will get to where your going. And now, pay-tv providers are offering Tivo's to lease. The leased cabelco market looks to be the growth market for Tivo. Especially since Motorola and Cisco are making noises about leaving it.

When you're in bed with the cabelco's, why would you encourage people to be cord-cutters? To me, this is the reason why Tivo will eventually leave the ota market.
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:28 PM   #72
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I think it is also foolish to think TiVo doesn't know if it is economically feasible to continue supporting OTA. They know more than anyone if OTA users are willing to pay for a premium DVR. They have the data and are able to see where the trends are.
I agree and have already posted:
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...
TiVo has enough data to know what is likely to make sense to develop. My guess is that without the cable companies they couldn't have developed the 4 tuner cable DVRs so I tend to believe we will not see a 4 tuner OTA one. However I do believe they will continue to support OTA with what ever ends up being their enter level DVR for a long time.
...

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:30 PM   #73
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When you're in bed with the cabelco's, why would you encourage people to be cord-cutters? To me, this is the reason why Tivo will eventually leave the ota market.
If they're smart, TiVo will continue to serve both OTA and cable markets. Why not?
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:04 PM   #74
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...
When you're in bed with the cabelco's, why would you encourage people to be cord-cutters? To me, this is the reason why Tivo will eventually leave the ota market.
It is kind of hard for me to decide what would upset cable companies more OTA DVRs or "Smart TV" features.

My completely no facts to support it guess is that the cable companies loose more money from having people using video rental service like Amazon/Apple/Netflix/Vudu etc than they do by people actually "cutting the cord".

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If they're smart, TiVo will continue to serve both OTA and cable markets. Why not?
I would assume that TiVo will continue to support OTA only if it is profitable to do so. My guess is that if a Series 5 is showing up next year that it will have OTA support. After that who knows where the market will end up going.
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:08 PM   #75
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If they're smart, TiVo will continue to serve both OTA and cable markets. Why not?
If Tivo becomes a major player in the leased stb game, selling ota dvr's is going against their own self-interest. Cable companies will buy a lot more devices than cord-cutters would.
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #76
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hmm- I think of OTA support as more of a hedge against a cable co deal eventually going south. They will direct resources that bring in the most revenue, but need to minimize future risk since there is competition in selling to the cable cos.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:20 PM   #77
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hmm- I think of OTA support as more of a hedge against a cable co deal eventually going south. They will direct resources that bring in the most revenue, but need to minimize future risk since there is competition in selling to the cable cos.
An interesting thought. I don't want Tivo to abandon ota. And hopefully they won't.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:28 PM   #78
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$10 for a dvr is on the low end of the cabelco spectrum. Is that a sd or hd model? I know that Comcast has HD DVR's for $16 - $18 per month, so going with a Tivo w/lifetime makes more sense.
You're right. I took another look at Cox's pricing. They seem to split their DVR services into two separate items. It's confusing. "DVR Service" is 9.99. "HD/DVR receiver and remote" is 7.99. The latter requires the former. I have no idea what you get if you get "DVR service" but no receiver. But assuming you need them both, the DVR service is actually $18. So with that pricing, a Tivo is basically the same price after including the cable card rental. Your only extra cost would be the box itself.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:55 PM   #79
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I have seen comcast do this split as well. Not sure if they still do, but a "free" dvr box for a year was not HD, and HD was a $8 add on. Made it hard to compare apples to apples initially, but once I figured this out I ran away.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #80
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TiVo has the means to see exactly how many subscribers are using OTA. I'd be curious to know what the percentage is.
I don't think Tivo is going to abandon OTA anytime soon. I think they are just taking advantage of the opportunity they have with certain cable companies right now (with the hopes of gaining more).

Today's Premiere has the ability to tune 2 OTA channels, 2 cable channels, or one of each.
Since the current technology allows TiVo to cater to the cable companies, that's what they are doing. I'd bet TiVo could easily make a 4 tuner 'OTA only' Premiere if they wanted to.
I've long believed that TiVo has always wanted to work with the cable companies, so this doesn't surprise me.
I suspect by the time the Series 5 comes out, it will have the technology to handle combined OTA and cable with 4 tuners.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:47 AM   #81
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But will it be worth TiVo spending the extra money to create a box that has four OTA tuners and four cable tuners to cater to a small percentage of users?

Between their agreements with the cable companies and the retail users, OTA is a small percentage of their market.

And their projections already estimate that the bulk of their growth over the next few years will be from cable companies. And the boxes for the cable companies won't have OTA. So will it be worth it for TiVo to create a completely different box than what they create for the cable companies for their shrinking percentage of retail users.

For me, I just want the next box to have six tuners. Then I can sell my two Elites and have two TiVo Minis as well as keep my two tuner Premiere for OTA only.. I should hopefully be able to get by with those. And I'll be able to get down to using just one cable card, saving even more in CC rental fees from FiOS.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:52 AM   #82
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I think also part of the reason the newer TiVos are digital cable only and don't offer OTA inputs is because cable companies & TiVo sort of secretly agreed to have it this way so it would NOT be an option for someone thinking of "cutting the cord".

Cable companies saw this potential problem slowly growing so basically told TiVo to lose it or they won't play nice with them in the long term and could threaten their relationship. TiVo really needs them & didn't want to get in a tussle like they did with DirectTV years ago so they played nice and lost the OTA option for future Premieres.

I understand all the hardware related reasons too and I'm sure that played a factor as well, but this is just my little additional theory, but who truly knows the whole reason
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:53 PM   #83
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[quote=steve614;9244659]TiVo has the means to see exactly how many subscribers are using OTA. I'd be curious to know what the percentage is.
I don't think Tivo is going to abandon OTA anytime soon. I think they are just taking advantage of the opportunity they have with certain cable companies right now (with the hopes of gaining more).
Today's Premiere has the ability to tune 2 OTA channels, 2 cable channels, or one of each.
Since the current technology allows TiVo to cater to the cable companies, that's what they are doing. I'd bet TiVo could easily make a 4 tuner 'OTA only' Premiere if they wanted to.
I've long believed that TiVo has always wanted to work with the cable companies, so this doesn't surprise me.

REPLY:
Consumer Reports Survey: 1 in 4 respondents who used streaming video said they reduced or eliminated their TV service as a result. I guess you could include or NOT include those that went to TIVO and/or Streaming. Still 75% still with cable/satellite. Still, a 25% OTA market is nothing for TIVO to dismiss/ignore. I, myself recently purchase 2 TIVO's and supplement with netflix-Amazon and Hulu Plus. Also the occasional online rental and blu-ray. I dumped Satellite after many years last month and don't miss it at all! If they ever go Alacarte-maybe I'll go back (I think the technology is there? Just not profitable for them)

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Old 08-22-2012, 03:45 PM   #84
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I think also part of the reason the newer TiVos are digital cable only and don't offer OTA inputs is because cable companies & TiVo sort of secretly agreed to have it this way so it would NOT be an option for someone thinking of "cutting the cord".

Cable companies saw this potential problem slowly growing so basically told TiVo to lose it or they won't play nice with them in the long term and could threaten their relationship. TiVo really needs them & didn't want to get in a tussle like they did with DirectTV years ago so they played nice and lost the OTA option for future Premieres.

I understand all the hardware related reasons too and I'm sure that played a factor as well, but this is just my little additional theory, but who truly knows the whole reason
I hope you're wrong; I hope TiVo has more integrity than that. I guess we'll find out when the Series 5 comes out. If no Series 5 model has OTA capabilities, then it will be apparent that TiVo has indeed sold out to the forces of darkness. TiVo is small, and I guess it could be understandable that they might succumb to such extortion. But I hope they understand (as has been pointed out) that they need to stay in all their various markets and not set themselves up to be flagrantly screwed by dictatorial cable companies. They should also remember that the OTA market is growing.

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Old 08-22-2012, 06:50 PM   #85
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I totally agree with you on this. Currently I have Dish Network, but I do have an ota usb tuner connected to a pc w/ Media Center. I was using it as a ota dvr before we signed with Dish 2 /12 years ago. I've had it for about 5 years now and still use it to record hd programs on local channels that Dish doesn't broadcast in hd. We also have a Panasonic DMR-EH75V dvd recorder that was used as a dvr before the digital transition was completed. It's currently used to archive shows from my 722K dvr. And of course there was the trusty vcr before that. Nearly a decade ago we also paid around $400 to get a roof top antenna installed. So I spent a decent amount of cash to record tv before we ever had pay-tv.

Now that are kids are doing their own thing, my wife and I have been thinking about dropping Dish to go back to the ota and streaming model (we have had Netflix for quite some time now). So I've been investigating to see which will work out better for us, Tivo or adding a couple of pc tuners. Once again we're willing to spend upfront to save in the long run.
I purchased the original Series 3 and a premium cost with a lifetime warranty at that time I was spending around hundred dollars per month for satellite, when I dropped it; it took me 10 months to recoup my investment. Within a year I was about $200 ahead. The units with a lifetime warranty do not cost that much anymore. For OTA you would definitely come out ahead dropping cable or satellite, using something like Netflix or Hulu Plus. 99% of the cable companies, Dish Network and DirecTV are very expensive options. If you watch a lot of TV and have about $12-$1400 a year to spend, it may be worth it to you; it's a personal choice every person needs to decide, since they pay the bill.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:17 PM   #86
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I purchased the original Series 3 and a premium cost with a lifetime warranty at that time I was spending around hundred dollars per month for satellite, when I dropped it; it took me 10 months to recoup my investment. Within a year I was about $200 ahead. The units with a lifetime warranty do not cost that much anymore. For OTA you would definitely come out ahead dropping cable or satellite, using something like Netflix or Hulu Plus. 99% of the cable companies, Dish Network and DirecTV are very expensive options. If you watch a lot of TV and have about $12-$1400 a year to spend, it may be worth it to you; it's a personal choice every person needs to decide, since they pay the bill.
Lifetime warranty or Product Lifetime Service?
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:43 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
That's basically it. The Elite, XL4, and now Premiere 4 are simply ways for TiVo to monetize via retail something they developed for the cable industry.

There is also a technical limitation. The current generation hardware can not support more then 4 tuners. The standard Premiere has two OTA and two cable tuners, the XL4 has 4 cable tuners. That's all the mobo, and the case, can handle. I guess they could technically create a unit that has 4 OTA tuners, but I doubt there are enough cord cutters to justify it.

Dan
Since it has 4 Tuners (2 Cable + 2 OTA), it would be nice if we could use all 4 at once...instead of only 2 at a time. This would probably work almost as well as having 4 Cable Tuners, since pretty much any time I need more than 2 tuners, at least 1 or 2 of the shows I'm recording are OTA.
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:59 AM   #88
agredon
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Originally Posted by lessd View Post
I would assume the OTA stations are far fewer than cable making the 4 tuner OTA not a must have product for most people, cable with what, 300+ useful channels and OTA maybe 16 in a big city five or six in other places.
You failed to consider that OTA stations typically all broadcast their best content at the same time (8-11 PM) and don't typically have encore presentations like many cable networks do. Cable stations give you alot more flexibility in when you watch [or record] a show. ABC Family for example will show certain popular shows at 8 PM, then an encore presentation at 10 PM, with another showing the following week at 7 PM. Plus, they'll run marathons a few times a year where they rerun all the episodes from the current half-season. OTA OTOH will run a show at 8 PM on a certain day and then if you're lucky maybe a rerun 3-6 months from now and that's if the show doesn't get cancelled before the end of the season, in which case there will probably NEVER be a rerun EVER.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:02 AM   #89
agredon
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Originally Posted by jasew View Post
I don't understand why cable people use Tivo unless they're rich or if their provider's DVR is utterly inadequate.
I highlighted and underlined the reason. Cableco DVRs are utter pieces of junk. Problems I've noted with Comcast's "HD DVR" [by no means an exhaustive list since I rarely use it]:

1) Can only record about 20 Hours of HD. That would mean it has a 120 GB hard drive, a drive so small I haven't seen one in the stores since about 2008. I couldn't believe it when I got Comcast in 2011, set up some season passes on their DVR, and the next day went to the list of shows and it said that it was 95% full. I now use it only for SD.

2) If you have multiple season pass recordings scheduled at the same time, it will not let you cancel more than one. For example, let's say I have 1 show at 9 PM, and 2 shows at 10 PM. Since it has 2 tuners, one of the shows will be marked as not recording due to conflict. For our example, let's say it's the 9 PM show. So, I look at the shows and realize I've seen both of the episodes at 10 PM. So, I cancel the first 10 PM show. The 9 PM show now goes back to "will record" as it should. But, if I try to cancel the other 10 PM show, it uncancels the first 10 PM show. Apparently, it can't tell the difference between a show that won't record due to a conflict and one I manually cancelled.

3) It lost its guide once [that I know of] and it took almost a full day to get it back, during which time I couldn't schedule anything to record.

4) I have never been able to get their online scheduler to work. When I first logged in, it said that I didn't have a DVR. it said this for a while, and then later on it "found" my DVR, but said that it had no recordings (it had plenty of recordings). Despite the shortcomings of TiVo's online scheduler, at least it works.

5) You cannot transfer recordings and watch them on your laptop. This is true of EVERY Cable or Satellite DVR I have ever seen. Only TiVo allows you the freedom to watch your recordings on your laptop and/or archive shows on your PC, unless you're unlucky enough to be stuck with Time Warner [who from what I've heard copy protect EVERYTHING so that you can't even use MRV, much less TTG.]

6) The box belongs to Comcast. You have to return it [losing any recordings you have] to Comcast if you ever leave them. I already went through this with Dish Network and Uverse. If you want to save your recordings to DVD [using a DVD Recorder,] you basically have to start 3 months ahead of time and be constantly recording shows onto DVD...just to get ahead of all the new stuff being recorded. Thankfully, about a month before I switched from Uverse to Comcast, I bought my TiVo and moved all my broadcast channel (CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC, CW) season passes over to it (using an OTA Antenna)...which sped up the process a little [as it reduced the number of new recordings each day on the Uverse DVR.]
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:20 AM   #90
Puppy76
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Originally Posted by lessd View Post
I would assume the OTA stations are far fewer than cable making the 4 tuner OTA not a must have product for most people, cable with what, 300+ useful channels and OTA maybe 16 in a big city five or six in other places.
I'm near a medium sized city, and have probably 12-14ish stations, and was CONSTANTLY recording more than 2 at the same time. Right now I wouldn't buy a new Tivo for that since I already have 3 tuners with my Tivo HD XL + Series 2, that more or less gets the job done, but this past season it was SUPER common for me to have 3 or 4 shows I needed simultaneously.

In fact I had to give up watching Supernatural (I'll rent it on Blu Ray instead) because it conflicted with...actually technically FOUR other shows, but one of those is rebroadcast. But still, I could use 4 tuners easily.
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