Breaking Bad S05E05 "Dead Freight" OAD 08/12/12

[Hank]

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

Walt made it very clear that nobody else could know about the heist or the tanks in the ground. Todd was just doing as he was told.

No, he mis-interpreted what Walt said.. when he said nobody else can know, it was meaning that Todd can't speak of it to anyone. Not to go killing witnesses rambo style without direction from the leaders of the group.

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

So you'd expect someone would know roughly where the kid was going to ride. So when he doesn't come home, and they go looking for him, they're going to find the buried tanks. So it seems Walt and crew have to get the tanks out of there ASAP. Hopefully they planned for that.

If they moved the kid and camouflaged the tank lids well enough (as they had already done), there's no reason to think anyone would find them buried in the ground. Even still, the kid's route, assuming that even was his regular route, was on the other side of the tracks. It looks like he goes mountain biking in the desert all the time. No telling which trails he would take that particular day.

I'd say they leave the tanks there and go get the methylamine when they need more. If they remove the tanks, they're going to have to find some other secure place to store 1000 gallons of the stuff undetected. The "dead zone" seems like a pretty good hiding place to me.

[danterner]

Originally Posted by mrdbdigital

Those kind of tank cars are pretty standard. They could have gone to any tank car spotted anywhere on a track and learned everything they needed to know in about 10 minutes. Unused tank cars are spotted on storage tracks in many places. And, the adapter for that kind of hose is a standard adapter for tank cars, from what I've seen.

Those are fair points. I'm going to assume that's what they did, and we just didn't get to see the typical prep montage (those are cliched, anyway).

Originally Posted by Johnny Dancing

BB is not supposed to be a "realistic' show so if you are looking for things to all line up in a way that could/would happen in real life the show will disappoint. Vince Gilligan has stated in interviews that it is hyper realistic story telling.

They are going for over the top jaw dropping stories.

Very true. And they set the bar early on - I think the acid bathtub scene is what really hooked me on the show, and I've never been disappointed by an episode -- I even liked Fly. Hyper-reality is the norm, I suppose; whether it is the acid tub, or planes colliding, or Gus-splosions, I guess stuff like that is always happening in this show; not sure why I'm feeling that it's amped up of late: maybe it really has been consistent throughout.

Unrelated musings:

1. Now that the methylamine supply issue is solved, is Lydia still needed? Or do they still need her, because they'll need to re-up with new train robberies periodically and so they need her dead zone intel?

2. How does the economy of meth work, anyhow? Are they going to flood the market, increasing supply and driving prices lower? Or are they going to expand their market and distribute to a wider area? Or is there a limitless demand for meth, and they won't have to adjust their prices? Or are they still limited by how much they can cook in a batch by the tent-house setup but they now just don't have a methylamine bottleneck on top of that? If Walt's empire is expanding, I wonder if we'll wind up seeing him go toe to toe with the Gusses of other regions of the country.

[robojerk]

Originally Posted by Hank

The "dead zone" seems like a pretty good hiding place to me.

Where is the "dead zone" again? If it's not local to them it adds traveling costs, also the tanker may have to cross state lines. I remember her saying it passes near them. I don't remember where that was.

[tivoboyjr]

Except for the end, this was a pretty fun episode (fun relative to the world of BB). This reminded me a little of the "money train" caper in The Shield - mostly just that there was a decision made along the lines of "screw the small stuff, let's rob a train."

I didn't really have a problem with the logistics of the robbery. Sure, it couldn't have happened exactly like that, but it's TV. They knew where that car was in the train and how long the train was via Lydia, they knew where they had to stop the train, etc. I assume they found a tanker car somewhere to practice on a couple of times.

I was sure that Lydia didn't plant that tracking device on the barrel, but I didn't expect that it was local Houston cops, which didn't make a lot of sense.

Speaking of not making sense, Skylar's master plan to keep the children safe still makes no sense, but I went into enough detail on my thoughts on that topic on last week's thread that I won't do it again. It doesn't make any more sense now. Looks like Hank and Marie will be raising baby Holly without knowing why.

Walt/Jesse/Mike would be a lot better off if Todd hadn't shot that kid. Moral issues aside, now they've got a body to deal with and there will be a search for the boy. If they'd just told him to run along, it's doubtful anything would have come from it. Maybe they try to remove the tanks, maybe they just put dirt and plants over them and leave them there. It's not clear what the kid actually saw, if anything, other than seeing them. They can't do the train heist repeatedly, anyway, so even if someone eventually finds the tanks, it shouldn't matter much to them.

Seems like Walt risked a lot by bugging Hank's office. Nice short-term gain, but longer term, this stuff will be found, and I can see this being what finally clues Hank in that Walt's his guy.

[nataylor]

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

It would make more sense if the bridge were 814 yards back from the crossing rather than 814 feet, but even still, trains take a long time to stop.

Did they actually say it was 814 feet? I just remember them counting and don't recall if they mentioned units. Also, didn't they start counting from the right? I remember Jessie approaching the bridge from the right, which would have been the opposite direction on the track from the crossing.

The train only had a couple more cars from the methylamine car, which would make it a rather short freight train (if indeed it was only 814 feet to the locomotive at the crossing).

[Hank]

Originally Posted by robojerk

Where is the "dead zone" again? If it's not local to them it adds traveling costs, also the tanker may have to cross state lines. I remember her saying it passes near them. I don't remember where that was.

I don't know for sure, but Lydia did say something like "it passes right through your state". Since ABQ is in the middle of NM, it's 290 miles to one corner, and 190 miles to the other. So that's really not that far to travel within the state.

And they can do it a few barrels at a time -- they won't need a tanker truck to do it, just a van or pickup truck.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by Hank

No, he mis-interpreted what Walt said.. when he said nobody else can know, it was meaning that Todd can't speak of it to anyone. Not to go killing witnesses rambo style without direction from the leaders of the group.

Obviously that's not what Walt meant. But from Todd's perspective, how else is he supposed to interpret that?

Originally Posted by Hank

If they moved the kid and camouflaged the tank lids well enough (as they had already done), there's no reason to think anyone would find them buried in the ground. Even still, the kid's route, assuming that even was his regular route, was on the other side of the tracks. It looks like he goes mountain biking in the desert all the time. No telling which trails he would take that particular day.

I'd say they leave the tanks there and go get the methylamine when they need more. If they remove the tanks, they're going to have to find some other secure place to store 1000 gallons of the stuff undetected. The "dead zone" seems like a pretty good hiding place to me.

I think the kid's route took him through the wash they were in, which meant riding underneath that bridge. That's why he was stopped just on the other side, because Walt and crew were in his way.

If a search party begins combing that trail, the chances that they find the buried tanks, with the lids only a couple inches under the ground, is pretty good. If they could somehow bury the tanks deeper so the lids aren't so close to the surface, that would make more sense, but to bury them deeper at this point would be more difficult than just removing them.

Originally Posted by danterner

Very true. And they set the bar early on - I think the acid bathtub scene is what really hooked me on the show, and I've never been disappointed by an episode -- I even liked Fly. Hyper-reality is the norm, I suppose; whether it is the acid tub, or planes colliding, or Gus-splosions, I guess stuff like that is always happening in this show; not sure why I'm feeling that it's amped up of late: maybe it really has been consistent throughout.

They actually talked about that in one of the recent podcasts, how it would make a great episode of Mythbusters to test some of the more outlandish things they've done in this series to see if they're really possible.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by nataylor

Did they actually say it was 814 feet? I just remember them counting and don't recall if they mentioned units. Also, didn't they start counting from the right? I remember Jessie approaching the bridge from the right, which would have been the opposite direction on the track from the crossing.

I think it's 814 feet. 814 yards is just short of half a mile. It would have taken them a while to walk that distance (not saying they didn't). 814 feet is still 2.7 football fields of length, and that seems about right.

As far as orientation, I think you just have it flipped in your head. That all made sense to me.

-> Train direction -->>>>
======|===|=============================|+++|======
- - - - Bridge - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Crossing
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <<< Jesse Walk direction <<<

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by robojerk

Where is the "dead zone" again? If it's not local to them it adds traveling costs, also the tanker may have to cross state lines. I remember her saying it passes near them. I don't remember where that was.

They were willing to have Jesse drive 900 miles to Houston to pick up one 55 gallon drum of the stuff, so driving a few hundred miles into the desert whenever they need a refill shouldn't be a big deal.

Originally Posted by tivoboyjr

I was sure that Lydia didn't plant that tracking device on the barrel, but I didn't expect that it was local Houston cops, which didn't make a lot of sense.

It wasn't local Houston cops. It was Hank's counterparts in the Houston office of the DEA. It was brought up in last week's thread how it was kind of strange that Hank and Gomie went all the way to Houston to meety Lydia and arrest that warehouse guy. Wouldn't they just have the local Houston DEA do that? Well, it looks like the local Houston DEA was involved, and they took initiative to track the barrels themselves.

Originally Posted by nataylor

Did they actually say it was 814 feet? I just remember them counting and don't recall if they mentioned units. Also, didn't they start counting from the right? I remember Jessie approaching the bridge from the right, which would have been the opposite direction on the track from the crossing.

No, they didn't say feet or yards or meters. But based on Mike's POV during the actual heist, there's no way Walt and crew were 814 yards away.

As for which direction Jesse approached the bridge from, it just depends on which side of the tracks the camera was on. They could make it look like either direction just by moving the camera to the other side of the tracks. But having said that, I thought it was pretty clear that the camera was always on the "south" side of the tracks (assuming the train is heading east) and that the crossing was east of the bridge.

[getreal]

Originally Posted by Hank

Their loco was still running and the generater was 814 feet away, so it likely wouldn't be heard over the drone of the loco.

Not only was the bridge 814 feet from the intersection, but Walt and the generator were beneath the bridge, so the embankment would also act as a natural sound barrier.

The opening scene with the kid on the dirtbike, I thought he was going to find Lydia's remains. Then when he picked up the tarantula, I thought he would find Lydia while looking through the jar. Then we heard the train blowing its horn in the distance. That's what drew him to the bridge, but I couldn't connect it until the end.

Wow!

[Hank]

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

If a search party begins combing that trail, the chances that they find the buried tanks,

We'll have to agree to disagree then.. I don't think the chances are that great that anyone would find the buried tanks in the first place. And even if they did find two tanks buried in the desert near a train track, would they even think twice about them? Maybe abandoned water or gasoline storage tanks for the train route. Could be anything out there. If the tanks are closed up and locked, they'd just move on. Why would they suspect any foul play of two seemingly abandoned buried tanks in the desert with a kid who is never found? (He's a missing person at this point, not a homicide.)

Ok, lets say they do find the tanks, then what? First, they have to figure out what's in them. Second, they have to figure out how it got there. Third, when. There are real no links to Walt, et al other than the truck driver. So the police would have to go searching for some unknown/unnamed driver driving an unlabeled truck that got stuck on the tracks for 10 minutes. Once (if) they find him, he can just claim he doesn't know anything about the tanks.

It all adds up that it just doesn't matter that much in the few episodes they have left.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by Hank

We'll have to agree to disagree then.. I don't think the chances are that great that anyone would find the buried tanks in the first place. And even if they did find two tanks buried in the desert near a train track, would they even think twice about them? Maybe abandoned water or gasoline storage tanks for the train route. Could be anything out there. If the tanks are closed up and locked, they'd just move on. Why would they suspect any foul play of two seemingly abandoned buried tanks in the desert with a kid who never found? (He's a missing person at this point, not a homicide.)

Ok, lets say they do find the tanks, then what? First, they have to figure out what's in them. Second, they have to figure out how it got there. Third, when. There are real no links to Walt, et al other than the truck driver. So the police would have to go searching for some unknown/unnamed driver driving an unlabeled truck that got stuck on the tracks for 10 minutes. Once they find him, he can just claim he doesn't know anything about the tanks.

It all adds up that it just doesn't matter that much in the few episodes they have left.

It's not a question of whether the discovery of the buried tanks will lead the authorities back to Walt. It's a question of if the buried tanks are found, then Walt and crew lose their supply of methylamine that they just worked so hard to get. Because the killing of the kid now makes the presence of search parties in that area more likely, they'll have to remove the methylamine if they want to ensure that it's kept safe.

[tivoboyjr]

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

They were willing to have Jesse drive 900 miles to Houston to pick up one 55 gallon drum of the stuff, so driving a few hundred miles into the desert whenever they need a refill shouldn't be a big deal.

But how many more times can they do that? Once, maybe. Even thought no one may know about the actual heist, they can't keep stopping the train there without arousing some suspicions. So maybe at some point they have to kill the crew on the train, then it's over for sure. I realize they may have enough methylamine to last for the duration of the show - just trying to think it through.

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

It wasn't local Houston cops. It was Hank's counterparts in the Houston office of the DEA. It was brought up in last week's thread how it was kind of strange that Hank and Gomie went all the way to Houston to meety Lydia and arrest that warehouse guy. Wouldn't they just have the local Houston DEA do that? Well, it looks like the local Houston DEA was involved, and they took initiative to track the barrels themselves.

OK, thanks. I wasn't sure about that - because it did seem like Hank's office was handling everything for the DEA.

[netringer]

Originally Posted by getreal

...The opening scene with the kid on the dirtbike, I thought he was going to find Lydia's remains. Then when he licked up the tarantula, I thought he would find Lydia while looking through the jar. Then we heard the train blowing its horn in the distance. That's what drew him to the bridge, but I couldn't connect it until the end.

Wow!

Ditto. I was waiting for a POV from the kid where he sees a body. Once again Gilligan takes a cliche' and turns it on it's head.

[Hank]

What I'd like to know is how much methlymine they need per cook to produce 50lbs of meth. That would give us some indication of how long 1000 gallons would last. As far as we've seen, there has only been two cooks in the tents (yes, there were likely more). They started with 55 gallons of methlymine. They can't be using it that fast. The first barrel they stole in S01 lasted them a really long time. Remember they only intended to steal a few gallon bottles worth.

[netringer]

A major point was Heisenberg thinking that once more his macho and superior intellect saved the day and he is invincible. Then the kid is there and gets shot.

Mike is going to quit because Walt didn't abort when he was told. Once again Mike will see that Walt is going to get him killed.

"There are two kinds of heists. With witnesses where everybody gets busted and with no witnesses where they get away with it."

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by tivoboyjr

But how many more times can they do that? Once, maybe. Even thought no one may know about the actual heist, they can't keep stopping the train there without arousing some suspicions. So maybe at some point they have to kill the crew on the train, then it's over for sure. I realize they may have enough methylamine to last for the duration of the show - just trying to think it through.

I'm guessing the 1,000 gallons they stole was enough to last them for a year or more. As someone posted earlier in the thread, the AMC Story Sync thing said that was enough to make nearly $300 million worth of meth. Probably plenty enough for Walt and crew to retire on.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by Hank

What I'd like to know is how much methlymine they need per cook to produce 50lbs of meth. That would give us some indication of how long 1000 gallons would last. As far as we've seen, there has only been two cooks in the tents (yes, there were likely more). They started with 55 gallons of methlymine. They can't be using it that fast. The first barrel they stole in S01 lasted them a really long time. Remember they only intended to steal a few gallon bottles worth.

Look at netringer's post earlier in this thread. 1,000 gallons of methylamine is enough to cook 74,000 pounds of meth, worth $296 million.

[BradJW]

Originally Posted by Hank

What I'd like to know is how much methlymine they need per cook to produce 50lbs of meth. That would give us some indication of how long 1000 gallons would last. As far as we've seen, there has only been two cooks in the tents (yes, there were likely more). They started with 55 gallons of methlymine. They can't be using it that fast. The first barrel they stole in S01 lasted them a really long time. Remember they only intended to steal a few gallon bottles worth.

Netringer posted already. 1000 gallons will yield 74,000 pounds of meth (I assume that's based on the 1000 gallons they got and not on the 24,000 gallons in the tank).

[Gary McCoy]

I'm finding the logistics of the train robbery completely believeable. Firstly, it's a weekly train, taking the same track at the same speed and stopping at all the same working factories every week. The number of train cars and the type of train cars probably do not vary very much, if any.

Tanker cars are always the last ones on the train. I don't know why, but I have observed that it is so.

The guys were prepared with at least 100' of hose for water and methylene. That would probably have reached any of the four tanker cars in the train.

After Lydia had received the manifest, they would confirm the exact number of cars, hence the exact train length, plus the exact train weight. The train would always be travelling at the same speed through that twisty section of track, and the weight would allow you to calculate the exact stopping distance. They would also know which of the cars contained the methylene, and would have six hours or more to tweek the plan, or get any extra hose, or whatever.

Completely believable, especially for TV.

[mostman]

Originally Posted by netringer

A major point was Heisenberg thinking that once more his macho and superior intellect saved the day and he is invincible. Then the kid is there and gets shot.

Mike is going to quit because Walt didn't abort when he was told. Once again Mike will see that Walt is going to get him killed.

"There are two kinds of heists. With witnesses where everybody gets busted and with no witnesses where they get away with it."

Yeah - to me its obvious where this is headed. Jesse is going to quit over moral issues and Mike is going to quit because he would rather be alive and not in jail. Crew falls apart, Skyler goes to Hank to confess, Walt goes nuts.

[danterner]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

I'm finding the logistics of the train robbery completely believeable. Firstly, it's a weekly train, taking the same track at the same speed and stopping at all the same working factories every week. The number of train cars and the type of train cars probably do not vary very much, if any.

Tanker cars are always the last ones on the train. I don't know why, but I have observed that it is so.

The guys were prepared with at least 100' of hose for water and methylene. That would probably have reached any of the four tanker cars in the train.

After Lydia had received the manifest, they would know the exact number of cars, hence the exact train length, plus the exact train weight. The train would always be travelling at the same speed through that twisty section of track, and the weight would allow you to calculate the exact stopping distance. They would also know which of the cars contained the methylene, and would have six hours or more to tweek the plan, or get any extra hose, or whatever.

Completely believable, especially for TV.

I don't disagree. But I know that if someone gave me a hose and a wrench and some connector-thingies, and told me "you just have to get under the train and attach the hose to the bottom of the tank," I don't think I'd do it anywhere near as adeptly as Jesse. He made it look like it is something he's been doing for years. Maybe it actually isn't that hard to do. Or maybe he's practiced from hooking up the cooking apparatus, which is similar. Or maybe, as postulated above, they were able to scope things out and even try some dry runs on a different train in a storage yard somewhere.

[mike_k]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

After Lydia had received the manifest, they would confirm the exact number of cars, hence the exact train length, plus the exact train weight. The train would always be travelling at the same speed through that twisty section of track, and the weight would allow you to calculate the exact stopping distance. They would also know which of the cars contained the methylene, and would have six hours or more to tweek the plan, or get any extra hose, or whatever.

Completely believable, especially for TV.

The only problem is that they did all of the measuring/planning before Lydia received the manifest. They planned for the tanker car to be on or near the bridge before Lydia called Walt with the manifest details. Maybe she gave them an estimate based on a previous manifest and that's where they got the 814 feet from.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by danterner

I don't disagree. But I know that if someone gave me a hose and a wrench and some connector-thingies, and told me "you just have to get under the train and attach the hose to the bottom of the tank," I don't think I'd do it anywhere near as adeptly as Jesse. He made it look like it is something he's been doing for years. Maybe it actually isn't that hard to do. Or maybe he's practiced from hooking up the cooking apparatus, which is similar. Or maybe, as postulated above, they were able to scope things out and even try some dry runs on a different train in a storage yard somewhere.

I don't think there's any question that they practiced on a different tanker car somewhere. It would be incredibly stupid of them to attempt a heist like this without testing all of the systems first and making sure everything works, everyone knows how to do their jobs, everything can be done in the allotted time, etc. I suspect they used that pump/generator combo to test how long it would take to pump 920 gallons of water, etc. They obviously knew about the "secured" tags that went on the top/bottom openings of the tanker car and had backups with them to re-secure the openings so nobody would realize what happened. Todd had the exact size socket on his drill that he would need for opening that hatch at the top. Jesse had the exact coupling he was going to need to enable the hose to be attached to the tanker. Jesse knew that the methylamine wouldn't begin flowing out until he flipped that lever. In other words, I think it's pretty obvious that they practiced beforehand and knew exactly what they were doing.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by mike_k

The only problem is that they did all of the measuring/planning before Lydia received the manifest. They planned for the tanker car to be on or near the bridge before Lydia called Walt with the manifest details. Maybe she gave them an estimate based on a previous manifest and that's where they got the 814 feet from.

Yeah, that was the only thing that was a little mysterious. Where did the 814 foot measurement come from? If that's where the tanker car was on previous trains, why would they assume that's where it was going to be on future trains?

[Hank]

I think the 814 feet is what they calculated to be the expected stopping distance of the train of that size at that speed, so they could plan where to put the tanks and stage the heist.

[Gunnyman]

Originally Posted by mostman

Yeah - to me its obvious where this is headed. Jesse is going to quit over moral issues and Mike is going to quit because he would rather be alive and not in jail. Crew falls apart, Skyler goes to Hank to confess, Walt goes nuts.

And it's going to be awesome to see.

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Originally Posted by Hank

Their loco was still running and the generater was 814 feet away, so it likely wouldn't be heard over the drone of the loco.

Now I'm starting to dislike Walt for jeapordizing the entire operation just to get to 10,000 gallons of methylamine. I'm sure 9000 would have been just fine giving everyone time to detach and close up the tank.


The problem I now see is what do that do with the little kid? They can't leave him there since the fuzz could easily find the methylamine tanks and evidence of a heist. So they're going to have to do something about that.

And Todd? Wow... he really wants to be part of this crew. Now they have no choice but to bring him in. I think that's a good move in the long run to have more muscle like Mike around willing to do the dirty work.

they had turned the diesel loco off. You see him insert the key and start it again at the end before they leave.

a lot of reality check issues with this....no way could they predict that the car would stop over the trestle. No way could they not hear the generator with the loco turned off. No way does that little pump supply enough head pressure to pump water into the tank car at anywhere near the same rate as the gravity valve let them have the methlamine.

but I still enjoyed it.

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Originally Posted by netringer

I have a real Garmin tracker. It has to have a view of the sky and it can only update its location about every 15 minutes if you want the battery to last a couple of days.

It's also a lot smaller than the one they showed. About the size of a pack of gum.

(My dog managed to dump the $150 thing somewhere in the back yard.)

LOL...so you LOST your GPS tracker?

[john4200]

I was wondering about how the kid got so close without them hearing his motorcycle. I guess the only way it could happen is if the kid came up while their pump was still on, drowning out the sound of the motorcycle (even then it seems like Mike should have seen and heard him approach). In which case the kid was sitting there for a while and must have seen most of what they were doing. So I think they only had two choices -- either kill the kid, or else quickly turn away (so the kid could not get a closer look at their faces), tie a scarf or something over their faces and run the kid off. Then get all of the methlyamine out of there immediately and hope the kid didn't get a good enough look at any of their faces to identify them. Because no way the kid doesn't tell everyone he knows about what he saw.

Also, I think they have to kill Lydia because when the authorities figure out the train heist (watered-down methylamine leads to talking to the train engineers who recall the weird situation at the crossing, which leads the authorities to the kid who witnessed it), they will know there was an insider to provide the needed intel to the thieves. They would figure out it was Lydia, and she, of course, would give up Mike, Walt, and Jesse.

So they had to either kill the kid, or kill Lydia and hope the kid could not provide a good enough description of them to the authorities.