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Old 02-21-2012, 09:44 PM   #1
unitron
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S3 analog cable recordings bigger than on S2s?

I have several S2s and one recently acquired S3 HD.

We are still on analog cable. I have no cable cards, no cable boxes, no coupon boxes.

All recording is done from analog cable channels at Best Quality.

I use TiVo Desktop, cheapskate free version, to copy shows from some of the TiVos to computer.

I have TVD set for the slower transfer speed to avoid incompatibility issues between the S2s and S3s.

It seems that the files resulting from copying from the S3 are larger than those from any of the S2s for the same length show.

If those shows can be copied back to S2s and viewed there I guess there's no problem other than taking up more hard drive space, but I'm still wondering why the difference.

Anybody know something I don't?
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:05 AM   #2
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Maybe since the digital and analog are simulcasted the series 3 uses the digital instead of analog, which use a little more space.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:09 AM   #3
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Maybe since the digital and analog are simulcasted the series 3 uses the digital instead of analog, which use a little more space.
That's what I'd suspect, except that I don't see TWC letting me have digital channels without either cable cards or some kind of set-top box rented from them, since we aren't paying for anything but analog.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:20 AM   #4
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You probably have a channel or two that have bad pic (interference, blurry what ever) around here 98,99 and some others on analog. If so see if much better on the S3 than the 2 would confirm the 3 is using the digital signal. I don't think cable co can or would even bother to filter digital versions of channels if you pay for it should get thru, don't know if the 3 would use them but makes sense.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:36 AM   #5
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You probably have a channel or two that have bad pic (interference, blurry what ever) around here 98,99 and some others on analog. If so see if much better on the S3 than the 2 would confirm the 3 is using the digital signal. I don't think cable co can or would even bother to filter digital versions of channels if you pay for it should get thru, don't know if the 3 would use them but makes sense.
But we aren't, and never have been, paying for digital channels.

And Time-Warner has never been known for giving away that for which they can charge extra.

When I ran guided setup on the HD I told it analog cable, no box, so it shouldn't be looking for digital channels, and the S2 DT sitting right below it gets the same channels with the same picture quality, and we have no cable cards to allow the HD to map the digital cable channels to analog numbers.

I'm wondering if the HD uses A/D converters with a higher sampling rate or bit count than the S2s.

The trouble with TiVos is they're usually too busy recording stuff you want to be taken out of service and experimented with.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:35 AM   #6
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I'm wondering if the HD uses A/D converters with a higher sampling rate or bit count than the S2s.

The trouble with TiVos is they're usually too busy recording stuff you want to be taken out of service and experimented with.
What does MediaInfo say about them?
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:19 AM   #7
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What does MediaInfo say about them?
According to a posting at SourceForge it doesn't do .tivo files.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:56 AM   #8
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But we aren't, and never have been, paying for digital channels.

And Time-Warner has never been known for giving away that for which they can charge extra.

When I ran guided setup on the HD I told it analog cable, no box, so it shouldn't be looking for digital channels
I think the Tivo HD will tune any channel it finds, regardless of what you specify in guided setup. There might be some digital channels available to the Tivo without a cable card. The cable company won't advertise these digital channels and would probably disavow all knowledge of them.

The S2 seems to only tune the channels it thinks are available based on guided setup.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:22 PM   #9
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I think the Tivo HD will tune any channel it finds, regardless of what you specify in guided setup. There might be some digital channels available to the Tivo without a cable card. The cable company won't advertise these digital channels and would probably disavow all knowledge of them.

The S2 seems to only tune the channels it thinks are available based on guided setup.
I don't think that is true. In order to even use digital cable channels w/o a cable card you must run a scan and you get no guide data for thise channels. If all you have set up is analog channels, that is what it will use.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:57 PM   #10
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I don't think that is true. In order to even use digital cable channels w/o a cable card you must run a scan and you get no guide data for thise channels. If all you have set up is analog channels, that is what it will use.
I thought the Tivo HD did a scan when you run guided setup.
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:48 PM   #11
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I thought the Tivo HD did a scan when you run guided setup.
I'm pretty sure you have to explicitly run one. And the local channels will show up the same way they do for OTA - n-n. For instance, the local main feed for channel 2 (local ABC affiliate) will show up as 2-1 whereas the cable analog feed is on cable 3.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:41 PM   #12
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The S3 and S4 Tivos encode the analog signal differently than the older Tivos.
A half hour best quality recording on my 540 S2 is 1.04GB and the same recording on my Premiere is 1.74GB. For basic quality recordings, the numbers are 0.38GB and 0.43GB.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:18 PM   #13
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It has been confirmed that the Series 3 648 (and presumably the HDXL) do, in fact, use a higher bit rate to record analog at all levels (perhaps THX uses this as their "for best video and audio quality" for meeting their THX certification, whatever in the world that really means as they have never defined what that is ).

Well, at least this is one way in which the S3 can be seen as "superior" to subsequent TiVo's (the 648 is still the Cadillac of TiVo's in my bood). I don't know at what bit rate the HD records analog.

I believe this info can be found in the S3 Q&A or at Gadget Lovers.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #14
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I thought the Tivo HD did a scan when you run guided setup.
It will for broadcast channels because whether you actually get a channel in your area depends on your antenna as much as it does your area.

Doing so for cable channels shouldn't be necessary.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:06 PM   #15
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It will for broadcast channels because whether you actually get a channel in your area depends on your antenna as much as it does your area.

Doing so for cable channels shouldn't be necessary.
It won't scan for broadcast channels unless you tell it you have it hooked up to an antenna.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #16
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It won't scan for broadcast channels unless you tell it you have it hooked up to an antenna.
But I'm pretty sure it won't actually scan for cable channels no matter what you tell it, it'll just go by the lineup it thinks you have based on where you are and what package you get from which cable company.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:46 PM   #17
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If you have no cable card installed, there is an option to scan for cable channels. You can't get guide data for the clear QAM channels it finds but you can do manual recordings and "live" TV using them.

Go to Settings->Channels=>Channel Scan. If you have a CableCARD and no antenna, you will get a message telling you "Channel Scanning is not available for your current setup."

I'm a bit puzzled. TWC actually has an analog only, lower priced package?
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:15 PM   #18
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If you have no cable card installed, there is an option to scan for cable channels. You can't get guide data for the clear QAM channels it finds but you can do manual recordings and "live" TV using them.

Go to Settings->Channels=>Channel Scan. If you have a CableCARD and no antenna, you will get a message telling you "Channel Scanning is not available for your current setup."

I'm a bit puzzled. TWC actually has an analog only, lower priced package?
Glad to hear that, I had assumed 3 and up should get the clear QAM but someone recently asked about the 3 several people said it doesn't.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:21 PM   #19
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If you have no cable card installed, there is an option to scan for cable channels. You can't get guide data for the clear QAM channels it finds but you can do manual recordings and "live" TV using them.

Go to Settings->Channels=>Channel Scan. If you have a CableCARD and no antenna, you will get a message telling you "Channel Scanning is not available for your current setup."

I'm a bit puzzled. TWC actually has an analog only, lower priced package?
scandia101 and Series3Sub have confirmed that the S3s A/D analog with a higher bitrate, so that would explain what I've observed without it being the result of thinking I was recording SD analog cable when I was actually recording digital OTA or digital cable.

We have the same TWC package we've always had, 2-13 plus analog cable 14 and up. They've changed the name of it a time or two, the price has increased a number of times over the years, and they've been removing some of the analog channels from that package (with no decrease in price), but they haven't gone all digital yet.

Last year when they dropped the analog version of the Speed channel they offered the free use of some kind of Scientific Atlanta box for 6 months to those affected.

I took it just to try it out and play with it, never tried to get a TiVo to control it, just ran it straight to the A/V switcher, and was not impressed.

It must have done SDV because of all of the channels that I had to wait for it to actually be able to tune to, and the many that eventually said not currently available.

I took it back well before the 6 months were up to be sure not to get charged any rent on it.

If that's the digital experience, I don't want any part of it.

If you consider what we'd have to pay in rent for cable boxes and cards and outlet fees and such, then what we have probably is lower priced.

I think they have an even lower priced channels 2-13 only package that you have to get in order to have cable at all for internet or "phone".
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:41 AM   #20
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According to a posting at SourceForge it doesn't do .tivo files.
It does on mine. Here's the output I get from a Series 2 recording at High quality.

General
Complete name : C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\My TiVo Recordings\The National Parks America's Best Idea - ''Going Home (1920-1933)'' (Recorded Sep 30, 2009, KUHT).TiVo
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 2.44 GiB
Duration : 2h 0mn
Overall bit rate : 2 912 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 2h 0mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2 604 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 000 Kbps
Width : 480 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 0.889
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.377
Stream size : 2.18 GiB (89%)

Audio
ID : 192 (0xC0)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 2h 0mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : 27ms
Stream size : 165 MiB (7%)
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:51 AM   #21
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I have seen my file sizes grow dramatically since the beginning of last week but only for CBS (channel 7) season passes. I have had a few season passes setup for the past few years on CBS channels on my TiVo HD with a dual tuner cable card from Comcast that haven't been changed and using TiVoToGo I looked at the now playing lists and hour long shows went from 1000MB to 2800MB. All other channels are recording as normal, the basic quality level according to the settings>recording screen. Any ideas if I will regain control? Is this a CBS/Comcast thing? I have a series 2 that is recording CBS still the same.

thanks!
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:02 PM   #22
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That's what I'd suspect, except that I don't see TWC letting me have digital channels without either cable cards or some kind of set-top box rented from them, since we aren't paying for anything but analog.
If your cable company is like mine you can run scan will get all digital but can only see clear ones, local HD versions and their subs mostly. While running scan I quit looking at 385 channls found figured something was wrong, later figured out was seeing all of them not just clears. Have my local subs now without card, will do till I get one. (like Ipwcomp posted)

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Old 08-11-2012, 08:06 PM   #23
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Forgot to add is easy to tell which ones are digital, signal strength meter only works on digital channels if not on one will change to nearest digital to check strength (even encrypted ones).
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:34 PM   #24
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I have seen my file sizes grow dramatically since the beginning of last week but only for CBS (channel 7) season passes. I have had a few season passes setup for the past few years on CBS channels on my TiVo HD with a dual tuner cable card from Comcast that haven't been changed and using TiVoToGo I looked at the now playing lists and hour long shows went from 1000MB to 2800MB. All other channels are recording as normal, the basic quality level according to the settings>recording screen. Any ideas if I will regain control? Is this a CBS/Comcast thing? I have a series 2 that is recording CBS still the same.

thanks!
It's probable that Comcast switched it to a digital channel from an analog one, which would mean the THD is recording the digital stream it receives. The TiVo 2 is converting an analog signal to digital and will compress it based on the Quality setting, which only affects recordings from analog sources.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "dual tuner cable card". A CableCARD is not a tuner and an m-card can in fact support 6-simultanious streams.
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