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Old 05-31-2012, 02:46 PM   #1
photoshopgrl
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Game of Thrones - Season 1 & 2 Discussion

Okay so I'm going to watch the entire series over again. Now that I have a full grasp on locations, houses, characters, etc I feel this might be fun. And I have some burning questions. Book readers, feel free to respond to anything that doesn't spoil beyond what's been aired. I'm sure there's backstory that HBO just couldn't get to that might help us understand some things.

Okay here's my list just from watching the pilot over.

1) I'm confused as to why Ned accepting Hand of the King meant he had to leave Cat behind? So the idea was they would just never see each other again because she was staying to be in charge of Winterfell? That's kind of crap.

2) I'm reminded of just what a bitch Cat was to and about Jon Snow. She wouldn't even allow him to eat with them all because it looked bad that the bastard be among the royalty? And the looks of disgust she gives him right in his eyes, just makes me seethe. Ugh. Hate her.

3) Gosh I had almost forgotten just how good looking Jamie is. He's been in dirt and grime this entire season. I do wonder why he and/or Cercei didn't just poison Robert the same way they did John Arryn. Clearly neither of them have anything but contempt for him.

4) Can someone clue me in again as to exactly what happened to Lyanna? I looked up on that Tower of the Hand site and this is what it says:
Quote:
Lyanna was bethrothed to marry Robert Baratheon. (AGOT 5) At the tournament held at Harrenhal during the year of the false spring, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen shocked the assembled crowd when he bypassed his own wife to crown Lyanna queen of love and beauty. (AGOT 59) Not long after, he absconded with Lyanna under mysterious circumstances, one of the major causes of Robert's Rebellion. Lyanna was held at the Tower of Joy until near the end of the war when Eddard came to reclaim her. Eddard found her dying in the tower and made an unknown promise to her right before her death. She was buried in the crypts beneath Winterfell. (AGOT 5)
I'm not fully sure I get what the bolded part means. And it says he found her dying... but what from?

I also noticed a couple things that aren't questions just observations that I didn't fully pick up the first time. From the moment Cercei talks to Sansa she calls her "little dove". Also there's some serious dislike between Jamie and Ned that I didn't remember before. I also realized that Summer was pacing below when Jamie shoved Bran off the tower. You'd think the wolf would remember him and want a piece of him the moment he came down.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:33 PM   #2
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The Lyanna thing is kind of spoiler ridden. They go back to that tournament at Harrenhal at different times in different books with different points of view. There are lots of theories about this that you will want to develop for yourself when the time comes.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:36 PM   #3
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The Lyanna thing is kind of spoiler ridden. They go back to that tournament at Harrenhal at different times in different books with different points of view. There are lots of theories about this that you will want to develop for yourself when the time comes.
Oh okay! I just thought with Ned and Robert both gone it was over and done with.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:40 PM   #4
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How are you watching them over? DVD? I want to watch the show now that I've gotten into the books, but it's not streaming anywhere, and I don't currently have HBO.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:47 PM   #5
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How are you watching them over? DVD? I want to watch the show now that I've gotten into the books, but it's not streaming anywhere, and I don't currently have HBO.
Your name has the word Pirate in it and you have to ask this?
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:00 PM   #6
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Watching episode 2. I HATE CAT. I cannot believe how much I despised her at the beginning. She's just awful to Jon. It's not his fault daddy couldn't keep it in his pants.

Cat: <look of utter disgust>
Jon: I've come to say goodbye to Bran
Cat: You've said it
Cat: <more dirty looks as he talks to Bran>
Cat: I want you to leave
Ned stands there watching the last part and does NOTHING. That is just crap.

I feel her hatred of him is what pushed him to the wall to begin with. Sad.

EDIT: Jon asks Ned about his mom and Ned tells him the next time they see each other they'll talk about his mom. So does that ever get revealed now that Ned is dead? I'm curious what the deal was there.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:25 PM   #7
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Watching episode 2. I HATE CAT. I cannot believe how much I despised her at the beginning. She's just awful to Jon. It's not his fault daddy couldn't keep it in his pants.

Cat: <look of utter disgust>
Jon: I've come to say goodbye to Bran
Cat: You've said it
Cat: <more dirty looks as he talks to Bran>
Cat: I want you to leave
Ned stands there watching the last part and does NOTHING. That is just crap.

I feel her hatred of him is what pushed him to the wall to begin with. Sad.

EDIT: Jon asks Ned about his mom and Ned tells him the next time they see each other they'll talk about his mom. So does that ever get revealed now that Ned is dead? I'm curious what the deal was there.
That scene cemented my hatred of anything Cat. I also don't like the actress and her portrayal of Cat (about the only casting choice that annoys me).

To answer your first question (and I could be very wrong), I thought Cat just would not leave Bran and otherwise would have gone to King's Landing with Ned.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:41 PM   #8
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To answer your first question (and I could be very wrong), I thought Cat just would not leave Bran and otherwise would have gone to King's Landing with Ned.
I thought that as well but then she tells Ned 17 years ago he rode off with Robert and came back with another woman's son so I took that to mean she didn't have a choice even if Bran hadn't been injured.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:57 PM   #9
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I thought that as well but then she tells Ned 17 years ago he rode off with Robert and came back with another woman's son so I took that to mean she didn't have a choice even if Bran hadn't been injured.
Last time Ned rode off with Robert it was for war, so cat really didn't have a choice in that one
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:24 PM   #10
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I thought too that the plan was for her to stay at Winterfell even before Bran's fall. Maybe he thought Rob was too young to run things himself. Obviously wrong about that. Maybe she would have joined him soon if he had felt it was safe? Of all the people with their good and bad sides, Cat is the hardest to understand. I thought she was portrayed more favorably on the show than in the books, but you guys hate her more than I do.

Ned bringing John back with him and treating him as an equal to his other children was unusual, I think, and that bugged her more than just his existence. As far as his mother, that's also up in the air for a long time--you don't want anything more revealed, I'm sure. DON'T google it.

Not only Ned, but everyone seems to treat Jamie with contempt--the whole Kingslayer thing. Note how Brienne insists on calling him that. It makes no sense when everyone agrees that the king in question was mad and needed killing, and they were rebelling against him themselves. But Jamie was sworn to protect him. So he's scum.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:52 PM   #11
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I thought too that the plan was for her to stay at Winterfell even before Bran's fall. Maybe he thought Rob was too young to run things himself. Obviously wrong about that. Maybe she would have joined him soon if he had felt it was safe? Of all the people with their good and bad sides, Cat is the hardest to understand. I thought she was portrayed more favorably on the show than in the books, but you guys hate her more than I do.

Ned bringing John back with him and treating him as an equal to his other children was unusual, I think, and that bugged her more than just his existence. As far as his mother, that's also up in the air for a long time--you don't want anything more revealed, I'm sure. DON'T google it.

Not only Ned, but everyone seems to treat Jamie with contempt--the whole Kingslayer thing. Note how Brienne insists on calling him that. It makes no sense when everyone agrees that the king in question was mad and needed killing, and they were rebelling against him themselves. But Jamie was sworn to protect him. So he's scum.
I did not google it. I will never google anything related to this show again.

And I do get the reasoning behind nobody really liking or trusting Jamie.

Funny, I'm watching this again while I'm on the computer and realized that although I don't think Robb Stark is all that hot, his voice is awesomely sexy.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:54 PM   #12
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Your name has the word Pirate in it and you have to ask this?
I try not to plunder as much these days.

Pillaging, I'm still good with.
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:35 PM   #13
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3) Gosh I had almost forgotten just how good looking Jamie is. He's been in dirt and grime this entire season. I do wonder why he and/or Cercei didn't just poison Robert the same way they did John Arryn. Clearly neither of them have anything but contempt for him.
Spoiler:
It has not been shown that Jamie and Cercei poisoned John Arryn.


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I did not google it. I will never google anything related to this show again.
I predict you will, after this week's episode.

Spoiler:
It will be a phrase spoken by Jaqen H'ghar

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Old 05-31-2012, 09:19 PM   #14
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4) Can someone clue me in again as to exactly what happened to Lyanna? I looked up on that Tower of the Hand site and this is what it says:
Quote:
Lyanna was bethrothed to marry Robert Baratheon. (AGOT 5) At the tournament held at Harrenhal during the year of the false spring, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen shocked the assembled crowd when he bypassed his own wife to crown Lyanna queen of love and beauty. (AGOT 59) Not long after, he absconded with Lyanna under mysterious circumstances, one of the major causes of Robert's Rebellion. Lyanna was held at the Tower of Joy until near the end of the war when Eddard came to reclaim her. Eddard found her dying in the tower and made an unknown promise to her right before her death. She was buried in the crypts beneath Winterfell. (AGOT 5)
I'm not fully sure I get what the bolded part means. And it says he found her dying... but what from?
This is the popular theory...
Spoiler:
Double spoilered just in case. It could change a lot of things, but this is still just a theory but a big and very popular one.
Spoiler:
Jon Snow is really Lyanna's child with Rhaegar. The promise is that Eddard had to protect him (Jon) as his own, King Robert was on a Targaryen killing spree would have gone crazy mad if he had known about Jon as the assumption would have been that she was raped.. There's speculation about it was true love instead of rape. The series title "A Song of Ice and Fire" could mean their romantic love affair. There's lots of hints like Ned never calls Jon his son, and instead says "You are of my blood". Also considering how honorable Ned is, I doubt he ever slept with another woman.

When Ned found Lyanna she was in a pool of blood. It is guessed she had just given birth to Jon, but something had gone wrong during the birth and lost too much blood. That's what killed her.

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Old 06-01-2012, 06:35 AM   #15
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I thought that as well but then she tells Ned 17 years ago he rode off with Robert and came back with another woman's son so I took that to mean she didn't have a choice even if Bran hadn't been injured.
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I thought too that the plan was for her to stay at Winterfell even before Bran's fall. Maybe he thought Rob was too young to run things himself. Obviously wrong about that. Maybe she would have joined him soon if he had felt it was safe? Of all the people with their good and bad sides, Cat is the hardest to understand. I thought she was portrayed more favorably on the show than in the books, but you guys hate her more than I do.
Again, I'm relying on my terrible memory here. But when Ned first got wind of Robert coming to Winterfell, didn't he and Cat discuss going to KL and how she hates it there?

Also, didn't he beg her to come with him and leave Bran and she said she would do no such thing?

If those 2 memories are correct (and they may not be), then Cat was supposed to go with him. Had she gone with him, I figure Ned's head would have been chopped off while Robert was still alive. The woman is a disaster magnet!
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:14 AM   #16
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Spoiler:
It has not been shown that Jamie and Cercei poisoned John Arryn.
I'm pretty sure it was not specifically admitted by either of them but their conversation with each other over his dead body heavily implied it.
Spoiler:
Are you telling me they didn't???

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Old 06-01-2012, 07:18 AM   #17
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Didn't Cersei admit it to Ned in their confrontation in the garden?

Also, didn't Jaime as much as admit it when he told Cersei that it had to be done to keep their secret from coming to light?
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:19 AM   #18
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Didn't Cersei admit it to Ned in their confrontation in the garden?

Also, didn't Jaime as much as admit it when he told Cersei that it had to be done to keep their secret from coming to light?
See? This is why I'm watching again. I know the conversation between Jamie and Cercei while looking on at John body pretty much removed all doubt for me even the first time watching it. Now if this isn't accurate then I'll be super confused.
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:35 AM   #19
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See? This is why I'm watching again. I know the conversation between Jamie and Cercei while looking on at John body pretty much removed all doubt for me even the first time watching it. Now if this isn't accurate then I'll be super confused.
if it walks like a duck...while you're watching, keep an eye on these things and let me know what you think:

1. Aryn knew of the incest.
2. The Maester (Lewin?) knew that he knew (because he gave him the books?).
3. The Maester spied for Cersei (fact).
4. The Maester is the one who has poison. He also gave "medicine" to Aryn. He is also the one who cures sick people! (facts)
5. Jaime and Cersei, at the very least, said that Aryn had to die to protect their secret.
6. Cat's sister told Cat that Cersei killed Aryn (or did she say "Lannisters"?).
7. Littlefinger pretty much hand-held Ned through the same clues that Aryn went through.

Add to it the various "confessions", from Cersei to Ned; Jaime as much as said something about first killing Aryn and then crippling Bran to keep the secret, and various other clues and hints I'm not thinking about right now...
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:41 AM   #20
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Cat hates Jon because Ned fathered him with another woman while married to her. So he is a constant reminder of that. I think if your husband did that you would be cold to him as well.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:45 AM   #21
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Cat hates Jon because Ned fathered him with another woman while married to her. So he is a constant reminder of that. I think if your husband did that you would be cold to him as well.
To a baby? who has done nothing wrong but be born?

I understand harboring resentment; which you do your best to hide from THE CHILD, but what Cat is doing is horrible.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:46 AM   #22
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Cat hates Jon because Ned fathered him with another woman while married to her. So he is a constant reminder of that. I think if your husband did that you would be cold to him as well.
Uh no. And anyone that would stay with the man but treat the son like he's scum on the bottom of her shoe is a horrible person. HORRIBLE person. Period.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:08 AM   #23
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Its rarely a good move to assume too much in a Song of Fire and Ice
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:09 AM   #24
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Didn't Cersei admit it to Ned in their confrontation in the garden?
Not outright. Ned said "I know the truth Jon Arryn died for", and she said "do you". They talked about her and robert (and Lyanna), she admitted that her kids were Jamie's, but she never admits about killing Jon Arryn. But the way she coyly responds "do you?" seems like an implicit confirmation to me
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:18 AM   #25
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Uh no. And anyone that would stay with the man but treat the son like he's scum on the bottom of her shoe is a horrible person. HORRIBLE person. Period.
You know, that's all a matter of societal values. If someone kept a slave today, I'd think they were horrible. 200 years ago slavery was wrong, but I don't think I'd consider someone who owned slaves to be horrible. Likewise, there are currently still cultures that treat women pretty poorly. I think it's wrong of them to do so, but I wouldn't think of an individual in that society as horrible just because they are doing what is the norm.

In Westeros it's completely normal that bastards are treated very poorly. I would respect someone like Ned who shows his bastard more respect than anyone else, but I wouldn't consider anyone horrible just for doing what is socially acceptable and customary.

It's one of those things where I could give you bonus points for seeing beyond the norms of your culture/society, but I'm not going to take away points for just following the norms.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:26 AM   #26
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You know, that's all a matter of societal values. If someone kept a slave today, I'd think they were horrible. 200 years ago slavery was wrong, but I don't think I'd consider someone who owned slaves to be horrible. Likewise, there are currently still cultures that treat women pretty poorly. I think it's wrong of them to do so, but I wouldn't think of an individual in that society as horrible just because they are doing what is the norm.

In Westeros it's completely normal that bastards are treated very poorly. I would respect someone like Ned who shows his bastard more respect than anyone else, but I wouldn't consider anyone horrible just for doing what is socially acceptable and customary.

It's one of those things where I could give you bonus points for seeing beyond the norms of your culture/society, but I'm not going to take away points for just following the norms.
So because society in Westeros says bastard kids are worthless that means it's not okay to hate on Cat for treating him like she wishes he were dead? Sorry I do not agree.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:29 AM   #27
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I can't imagine a mother looking into a child's eyes and hating that child. And Cat went above and beyond hating that child.

I see the point about the norm. But to take your slave analogy, I would feel different if the person who owns the slaves rapes them, beats them, and kills them. What Cat has done is unforgivable and I can't make an allowance for it.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:39 AM   #28
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Uh no. And anyone that would stay with the man but treat the son like he's scum on the bottom of her shoe is a horrible person. HORRIBLE person. Period.
But in Westeros marriage's are arranged to align houses and this was during a war and without modern contraception. Bastard's are very common so staying with a husband to modern standards cannot be considered. I do not believe divorce was possible and if it was to happen over a bastard most likely Cat would not be welcomed back even by her own family so she would have no way to live.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:45 AM   #29
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But in Westeros marriage's are arranged to align houses and this was during a war and without modern contraception. Bastard's are very common so staying with a husband to modern standards cannot be considered. I do not believe divorce was possible and if it was to happen over a bastard most likely Cat would not be welcomed back even by her own family so she would have no way to live.
You are still failing to give justifiable reason that she should treat Jon with such utter contempt. Give it up, you'll not change my point of view on this.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:56 AM   #30
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You are still failing to give justifiable reason that she should treat Jon with such utter contempt. Give it up, you'll not change my point of view on this.
Sorry. I though it was just a discussion, not an attempt to convert you. But it's probably one of the least interesting aspects of the show to discuss, so...next topic.
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