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Old 06-27-2012, 06:36 PM   #1
wmcbrine
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Fios' free copying to end

The grim news, from DSLReports:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r272...on-bit-letter-

The letter says "certain premium channels", so hopefully it will be confined to that (i.e. not even all the premiums).
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:43 PM   #2
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I would bet it is HBO and possibly Cinemax.
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:48 PM   #3
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Considering that Verizon doesn't bother pairing their cableCards, this is going to be a bigger support nightmare than it would normally have been as people will simply "lose" their premium channels.

Also FIOS users are used to being able to swap cards between devices, which will no longer work.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:03 PM   #4
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They do pair their cards, and have for some time now. For older installations, that's why the bulk of the letter is about how to get your cards paired.

I think the cards in my remaining S3 are still unpaired. Since they're single-stream cards, the information is presented in a slightly different way, and I'm not sure Verizon's procedures will work.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #5
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Considering that Verizon doesn't bother pairing their cableCards, this is going to be a bigger support nightmare than it would normally have been as people will simply "lose" their premium channels.

Also FIOS users are used to being able to swap cards between devices, which will no longer work.
I will still be able to swap the cards, it's just a matter of pairing them again. And the automated pairing service on the phone is quick and easy. I just used it tonight to pair my three remaining cable cards.

I called the number on the sheet and had my three cable cards paired in less than five minutes. They already had my cards on my account and it was all automated on the phone. I just had to enter the Host ID and Data ID for each Premiere. And the test channel showed up within a minute after entering the info.

When I tried it a few months ago it would not work since it was looking for a new card that was recently sent out. But my cards were a few years old. Now they have the system set up properly to re-pair the cards on your account. It was surprisingly quick and painless. In the 5.5 years I've been using cable cards with TiVos, this process was easily the quickest and easiest way I have ever paired a cable card. In the past I had gone through the process of pairing a bunch of cards with Comcast and FiOS. And it either took a visit by a tech or a rather lengthy phone call with a CSR. Either method was a pain.
This automated phone process was truly quick and painless.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:29 AM   #6
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I don't recall how differently the info was presented back when I had an S3, but as long as you can get CableCard IDs, Host IDs, and Data IDs for both cards in the S3's cablecard menus, the automated system should work.

I recall also that it's recommended that you pair the card in slot #2 first. But I don't know if that was only for the initial activation of the cards, or if it mattered for pairing.
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:46 PM   #7
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Iím in the Boston Fios market, and just received my letter today.

FWIW, I had Fios installed with my two Tivo Premieres two years ago, and based on seeing the Information Channel on channel 131 of each box, it looks like my CCís were paired when they were installed. I donít subscribe to any premium channels, so Iím hoping this has no effect on me.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:51 PM   #8
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Sure glad streaming was enabled a while back. otherwise there simply would be no reason to have a TiVo. As for copying material looks like its going back to the days of my directv HDtivo and that deal database site. Oh the things I've forgotten how to do.
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:46 AM   #9
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I got the letter today - in the Philly market.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:02 AM   #10
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I got the same letter and wasn't thrilled to get it. One of my TiVo's was actually already paired, and my Windows 7 box with Media Center and a Ceton Card installed was also already paired. 3 other TiVo boxes weren't paired. Except for the fact that the instructions on the letter told me to say "I don't have one" for the activation code and the voice recognition was apparently looking for the words "I don't have it", it was pretty painless. I worried a little that if I skipped over already activated cards that it might wipe their activations, but it didn't, and the 3 boxes that needed to be reactivated were all going fine within about 10 minutes of the completion of the call.

Very disappointed that apparently Verizon has been forced into honoring the copy restrictions. I wish that had been completely precluded long ago, but I understand that it isn't coming from Verizon and instead comes from the content producers -- many of which are just too stupid to realize that if they restrict the methods I can consume their content by, then I'm far less likely to ever bother consuming it, recommending it to others, watching any product placement spots they might have included, seeing any commercials that were included, etc.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:05 AM   #11
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The Mac Inhomeagent apparently doesn't support cable card pairing.
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:22 AM   #12
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Very disappointed that apparently Verizon has been forced into honoring the copy restrictions. I wish that had been completely precluded long ago, but I understand that it isn't coming from Verizon and instead comes from the content producers -- many of which are just too stupid to realize that if they restrict the methods I can consume their content by, then I'm far less likely to ever bother consuming it, recommending it to others, watching any product placement spots they might have included, seeing any commercials that were included, etc.
HBO is one of the providers which, by all reports, is requiring copy restriction. I wouldn't call HBO stupid. You can purchase a DVD if you want to archive a show. Tivo could have done something years ago. Streaming. Implement a MRV "move" instead of copy so shows with copy restrictions can be viewed on a tivo in another room.

Blame tivo for MRV issues. Blame the content provider for wanting to make money selling DVDs and digital versions of the programming (I Tunes)
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #13
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Tivo could have done something years ago. Streaming. Implement a MRV "move" instead of copy so shows with copy restrictions can be viewed on a tivo in another room.

I agree TIVO should have implemented a move (transfer and delete old copy) as well as the copy which they have now.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:40 AM   #14
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I agree TIVO should have implemented a move (transfer and delete old copy) as well as the copy which they have now.
CableLabs may not have a 'transfer and delete' specification. Don't know. But, yeah, MRV was ahead of its time for a long time. But was obviously lapped by secure streaming and TiVo's hardware wasn't comfortably capable - until the Premiere. I still prefer to blame HBO. Copy Once does nothing to prevent or limit piracy, it just inconveniences those of us will to legitimately pay HBO.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:15 AM   #15
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CableLabs may not have a 'transfer and delete' specification. Don't know. But, yeah, MRV was ahead of its time for a long time. But was obviously lapped by secure streaming and TiVo's hardware wasn't comfortably capable - until the Premiere. I still prefer to blame HBO. Copy Once does nothing to prevent or limit piracy, it just inconveniences those of us will to legitimately pay HBO.
The effect isn't significant for people with upgraded HDs. People who want to keep an HBO, special, movie or series for an extended period of time no longer have the option of archiving to a PC. Those people now have to purchase a DVD or , if available, a digital copy (Amazon or Itunes). It also prevents a HBO subscriber (with tivo) from making DVD copies for friends who don't subscribe to HBO.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:23 AM   #16
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HBO is one of the providers which, by all reports, is requiring copy restriction. I wouldn't call HBO stupid. You can purchase a DVD if you want to archive a show. Tivo could have done something years ago. Streaming. Implement a MRV "move" instead of copy so shows with copy restrictions can be viewed on a tivo in another room.

Blame tivo for MRV issues. Blame the content provider for wanting to make money selling DVDs and digital versions of the programming (I Tunes)
I'll still call HBO stupid... if I want to see the show on my iPad, or my iPad, etc., I should be able to do so. I've paid them (HBO) the monthly subscription fees and should be able to see the content where I want without having to have a cable company provided crappy DVR just so I can use the cable co.'s "On Demand".

Granted, HBO offers me "HBO Go" and I can use my devices to watch stuff that way, but I could just as easily have used TiVo Desktop to pull the content back over from my TiVo to put into iTunes and then put on whatever device I wanted. Sadly, it seems that HBO is more concerned that I'll then take my copy of the content and give it to someone else. They don't trust that I won't do that, so they are going to demand enforcement of the prevention of me possibly doing that while also reducing my ability to use their content in the forms that I want.

I can drop HBO entirely and ignore everything they do, watch it only on my TV, watch it on the HBO Go app, or buy DVD's or Blu-rays, or pick a combo of all of the above if I want. The issue will be just how much content gets protected and whether or not I'll ever be able to find that content elsewhere or instead, will I just get p.o.'d and frustrated enough to just say eff-it and instead find something else to for my own entertainment. That applies not just to HBO, but to any other provider that starts demanding the copy flag to be set.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #17
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The effect isn't significant for people with upgraded HDs. People who want to keep an HBO, special, movie or series for an extended period of time no longer have the option of archiving to a PC. Those people now have to purchase a DVD or , if available, a digital copy (Amazon or Itunes). It also prevents a HBO subscriber (with tivo) from making DVD copies for friends who don't subscribe to HBO.
The thought of the upgraded HDs was something that I chalked up as a positive for me since I had just upgraded two of the TiVo's in the house, one with a 1.5TB and the other with a 2TB drive. Since I already had an XL with 1TB in it, I figure I'm pretty well set and don't have to worry much about having content deleted before I can get to it, but it still doesn't lessen my frustration in not being able to take content with me as easily as I would be able to if not prevented from being able to use the TiVo Desktop software to transfer it over to my iDevices.

I can still make use of my Slingbox to work around the issue if I really want, but that has the disadvantage of using precious bandwidth that I might be restricted on by the stupid Telcos. The big advantage (for me) to putting the content on my iDevices is that it lives there and doesn't need to be streamed and doesn't use up bandwidth on those devices.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #18
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CableLabs may not have a 'transfer and delete' specification. Don't know. But, yeah, MRV was ahead of its time for a long time. But was obviously lapped by secure streaming and TiVo's hardware wasn't comfortably capable - until the Premiere. I still prefer to blame HBO. Copy Once does nothing to prevent or limit piracy, it just inconveniences those of us will to legitimately pay HBO.
Yeah, what he ^ said.


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Old 06-29-2012, 03:31 PM   #19
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CableLabs may not have a 'transfer and delete' specification. Don't know.
From the DFAST Technology License Agreement:
Quote:
3.5.2 A Unidirectional Digital Cable Product that makes a copy of content marked in the CCI as “Copy One Generation” in accordance with this Section 3.5 may move such content to a single removable recording medium, or to a single external recording device, only when (a) the external recording device indicates that it is authorized to perform this Move function in accordance with the requirements of this Section, and to copy such Controlled Content in accordance with the requirements of this Section 3.5; (b) such content is marked for transmission by the originating Unidirectional Digital Cable Product as “Copy One Generation”;
(c) the content is output over a protected output in accordance with Sections 2.2 or 2.4 of this Exhibit B; (d) before the Move is completed, the originating Unidirectional Digital Cable Product recording is rendered non-useable and the moved content is marked “Copy No More” and (e) the device to which the removable recording medium is moved is unable or rendered unable to output the content except through outputs authorized by these Compliance Rules. Multiple moves consistent with these requirements are not prohibited.
Most of the other related technology license agreements contain this clause (they seem to have each used the earlier agreements as boilerplate). I'm not sure if any device has actually used it.
Quote:
Copy Once does nothing to prevent or limit piracy...
HBO et al have publicly agreed with that statement. Content Copy Protection on this level achieves what they call "keeping honest people honest". They don't want it to be easy for you to copy stuff and give it friends and relations who don't subscribe. They don't particularly care for it to be easy for you to archive their stuff.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:38 PM   #20
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Content Copy Protection on this level achieves what they call "keeping honest people honest". They don't want it to be easy for you to copy stuff and give it friends and relations who don't subscribe. They don't particularly care for it to be easy for you to archive their stuff.
I suspect very few people are archiving and then stripping TiVo encryption. Most folks are transferring from one TiVo to another. So they may be keeping honest people honest, but they're generating bad feelings amongst those honest people. Who may choose to move on from their service and/or check out the dishonest approach. I'm probably not renewing HBO when we change providers in August (moving!). They can peddle their condescending and shortsighted approach elsewhere.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:43 PM   #21
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Hey--I'm just stating their point of view as I've read it expressed elsewhere. Obviously it causes bad feelings, particularly among people who've been unaffected by it for a long time, like FiOS subs.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:48 PM   #22
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Hey--I'm just stating their point of view as I've read it expressed elsewhere. Obviously it causes bad feelings, particularly among people who've been unaffected by it for a long time, like FiOS subs.
I understand and will not shoot the messenger. And, honestly, the move throws my whole plan into limbo. Our new house can receive either Comcast or FiOS. Neither service enters the house yet and while FiOS seemed like a no brainer a few days ago, the scenario has suddenly shifted. Will have to evaluate prices. FiOS Internet speeds have gone up recently, but so have their prices. Hm.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:12 PM   #23
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Still a great deal on the FiOS internet speeds. You can drop down to a lower TV tier which doesn't have any premium channels and increase your internet speed and pretty much keep the same price.

I'm still flip flopping on doing this so I can go up to the 75/35 tier. I really don't need the Premium channels. But in the past, everytime I dropped down to a lwoer TV tier, shortly after some new HD channels were added which required the higher tier to receive them. So I might just wait around for a sale around the holidays before I make any changes.

If I hadn't received such a great deal when I renewed earlier this year for two years I would have probably just increased my speeds by now since the increase would have been smaller. But I'm only paying $110 a month for DV, 35/35 internet and Ultimate HD. Plus they gave me a $327 gift card. This is he lowest price I've paid for FiOS over the last five years.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:09 PM   #24
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I understand and will not shoot the messenger. And, honestly, the move throws my whole plan into limbo. Our new house can receive either Comcast or FiOS. Neither service enters the house yet and while FiOS seemed like a no brainer a few days ago, the scenario has suddenly shifted. Will have to evaluate prices. FiOS Internet speeds have gone up recently, but so have their prices. Hm.
More food for thought. Comcast is set to match FIOS's speeds in the coming months.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r272...changes-coming.
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:00 PM   #25
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Fios Internet speed is much more solid than Comcast's, and download/upload is less lopsided. These things will remain true for the foreseeable future.
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #26
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HBO is one of the providers which, by all reports, is requiring copy restriction. I wouldn't call HBO stupid. You can purchase a DVD if you want to archive a show.
Doing so does not make HBO any money, nor does a failure to buy one lose them any money. It is the studio and production company (and possibly depending on contracts, some of the talent) who putatively stand to lose money by allowing a DVR owner to copy programming.

Quote:
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Tivo could have done something years ago. Streaming. Implement a MRV "move" instead of copy so shows with copy restrictions can be viewed on a tivo in another room.
Which does nothing for those of us who do not care to use MRV, or more importantly to live with the (unacceptable) restrictions inherent in trapping the content on a DVR.

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Blame tivo for MRV issues. Blame the content provider for wanting to make money selling DVDs and digital versions of the programming (I Tunes)
That is utter nonsense. The content providers do not sell DVDs or BRDs nor do they obtain any revenue whatsoever from the sale of any DVD or BRD. If anythng, they are hurt by sales and rentals of DVDs and BRDs. OTOH, some of the content providers, like HBO, are owned by movie production companies, in the case of HBO, by Time Warner. Selling DVDs is bad for HBO, but good for its owner.
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:49 PM   #27
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More food for thought. Comcast is set to match FIOS's speeds in the coming months.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r272...changes-coming.
So two or three people out of the 100 or more on each node can max out the available bandwidth?

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Old 06-29-2012, 07:00 PM   #28
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I suspect very few people are archiving and then stripping TiVo encryption.
Only about 1 person in 8 in the U.S. is black, and fewer than 2 people out of 100 are native Americans. That does not make it right to pass legislation that negativey impacts members of those groups.

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Most folks are transferring from one TiVo to another.
Perhaps, but OTOH there are a lot of TiVo owners who only have 1 TiVo, and even among those of use with multiple TiVos, there are plenty who transfer to external devices, not between TiVos. Certainly I almost never use MRV, but I use TTG literally several times daily.

The bottom line, however, is it is irrelevant how few people take advantage of the feature. The only salient point is that everyone, not just a lucky few, should have a right to enjoy the feature. Whether they do or how many do exercise that right or not is not even of the slightest consideration.

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I'm probably not renewing HBO when we change providers in August (moving!). They can peddle their condescending and shortsighted approach elsewhere.
I dropped HBO when I changed CATV providers a couple of weeks ago.

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Old 06-29-2012, 07:09 PM   #29
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So two or three people out of the 100 or more on each node can max out the available bandwidth?

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No, that's not quite how it works. If we assume for the moment everyone is continuously pulling down the maximum bandwidth they can, then if only two or three people are using the bandwidth, then they each can use as much as they like until they max out the bandwidth. Add a fourth, and if the bandwidth is maxed out, then the bandwidth of the other three drops by some amount. Add another 46, and each one will have access to perhaps 2% of the bandwidth. In the real world. however, one never sees such flat bandwidth demands. The odds of all 50 simultaneously downloading at maximum throughput is zilch. Instead, each user calls for bursts of bandwidth. Of course, downloading video extends the duration of those bursts by a significant amount, but it still means that of 50 users, on average only perhaps 4 or 5 are going to be downloading at any given moment.
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:35 PM   #30
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Fios Internet speed is much more solid than Comcast's, and download/upload is less lopsided. These things will remain true for the foreseeable future.
Since Comcast implemented 8 channel downstream bonding and 3 channel upstream bonding, there's not much of a difference. For example, currently one of my upstream channels has failed because of a bad card at the CMTS (which hasn't been fixed in over a week), but it hasn't affected my download or upload speeds or my pings because of channel bonding.

FIOS has faster theoretical speeds, but they haven't implemented then. Also CableLabs has come up with a scheme to bond a ridiculous amount of channels resulting in speeds over 1 Gbps. http://newsroom.intel.com/community/...the-cable-show
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