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Old 05-30-2012, 06:57 PM   #91
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There is blood, but I don't remember it being more than what I see on normal crime shows.
The only scene that really sticks in my head as being graphic is an execution of 3 of the boys. The way the bodies fell around the tree seemed very, very realistic. There was no blood there, but the ragdoll effect was very intense, to me.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:07 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonDawg

It's not a western in the strictest sense (in particular location) but it shares quite a few elements of one. From Wikipedia:

The bolded part definitely is where Hatfields & McCoys shares a commonality with the typical western. Change the names to say, "Smiths and Joneses" and change the setting to the California Gold Country and story would still make sense.

You also have to remember at that time, the overwhelming majority of the population still lived along the eastern coast of the US. The area between the Mississippi River and the west coast of the US was one big no-mans-land (at least from the white man's perspective). "Western United States" at that time probably meant anything west of the Appalachians.
Sorry. That definition would mean that a story set in midevil Europe would be a western.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:10 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
They were in a pretty divided area...in fact, the reason West Virginia exists is because most people there didn't want to succeed with the rest of Virgina. But the Hatfields lived on the West Virginia side of the river and mostly fought for the Confederacy, and the McCoys in Kentucky where the state was so divided it never really took a side.
Fun with typos!
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:14 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cearbhaill
I fully realize that this is of no importance to anyone other than me, but this footage is FAR more representative of the topography of that area. Helen Keller could see the difference.

I think that I feel as if Kentucky has been misrepresented- it is far more beautiful than where ever this show was filmed.
FAR.
Clearings are tiny, trees are huge.

140-150 years ago is nothing- it can't have been all that different.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nlgfuENAsU">YouTube Link: KY</a>

I know it is irrelevant.
If y'all would ignore me I'd stop
Not sure it is irrelevant. Part of why the area was so focused on those two families and why it is so frontier like post Civil War even though the US was a sea to sea country was the terrain. Made the area insular.

That and the harshness of farming and working that land. The land itself is a huge part of the story. But maybe one that would not convey well, anyway.

If this were the real terrain, we would never have the term hillbilly.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:15 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Donbadabon View Post
There is blood, but I don't remember it being more than what I see on normal crime shows.
The only scene that really sticks in my head as being graphic is an execution of 3 of the boys. The way the bodies fell around the tree seemed very, very realistic. There was no blood there, but the ragdoll effect was very intense, to me.
I can handle blood and shooting. I just can't handle extreme (messed up in the head type) cruelty... Kind of a Wuss in that regard. I had to stop watching "The Shield" for instance and some of the scenes from "Oz" still haunt me to this day.

It sounds like this one is probably okay but I wanted to make sure before I dive in. Some of the previews (where that lady tells that guy he killed her entire family) gave me pause, but I'll give it a go. It sounds pretty good... Not Lonesome Dove good, but pretty good.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:26 PM   #96
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Sorry. That definition would mean that a story set in midevil Europe would be a western.
You're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine, thanks.

Personally, I don't think anybody else besides you really cares what it's called.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:27 PM   #97
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I'm still holding these in their folder. How are you guys liking it so far? I'm kind of sensitive to extreme cruelty (like killing people's kids in front of them, stuff like that). Is this a "family friendly" type show or it "pretty bad" with all the blood, cruelty and killing? In other words, is this thing going haunt me?
Definitely not family-friendly, but not overly gory. Some of the violence is mostly suggested but not shown. I don't remember much blood splattering.

Anyone else?
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Donbadabon View Post
There is blood, but I don't remember it being more than what I see on normal crime shows.
The only scene that really sticks in my head as being graphic is an execution of 3 of the boys. The way the bodies fell around the tree seemed very, very realistic. There was no blood there, but the ragdoll effect was very intense, to me.
The scene was filmed from behind and a short distance away, so you didn't see the gun shot wounds.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by TonyD79 View Post
Sorry. That definition would mean that a story set in midevil Europe would be a western.
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Fun with typos!
Hmmmmm ... I think you meant "medieval" in that earlier post, before you corrected someone else's spelling of "succeed" vs "secede".

BUSTED!
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:12 PM   #100
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Hmmmmm ... I think you meant "medieval" in that earlier post, before you corrected someone else's spelling of "succeed" vs "secede".

BUSTED!
And not only that, but correcting a midevil historian!

(It's gotten to the point where I barely even notice "midevil" any more...)
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:13 PM   #101
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I wonder if they're cow-orkers?
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:47 PM   #102
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There was mention after his death that it could be difficult to prove who killed him since even some of his "kin" could have wanted him dead. He did fight for the Union even though his brother was a Confederate. It wasn't unheard of during the Civil War for families to be divided and brother fighting brother.

To your post: Randle Mc Coy didn't fight for the Union, but his brother Asa Harmon McCoy did.
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Not sure it is irrelevant. Part of why the area was so focused on those two families and why it is so frontier like post Civil War even though the US was a sea to sea country was the terrain. Made the area insular.

That and the harshness of farming and working that land. The land itself is a huge part of the story. But maybe one that would not convey well, anyway.

If this were the real terrain, we would never have the term hillbilly.
These two issues combine to illustrate why people in this region are so clannish and have an extreme distrust of strangers.

Say you're sitting in your house and you hear horses, or a kid runs in and says "someone's coming!"
You can't see them- the trees and terrain block all sightlines.
By the time they get close enough to be glimpsed between trees you might see a blue jacket or you might see a gray.
You have sons in both armies.
You know that there are bushwhackers from both sides in the area looking for others of your boys that are home.
Do you go out to see who it is or stay inside until you know absolutely for certain?

One of my g-g-grandfathers was shot to death in Pike Co. KY in 1867 by his own cousin for showing up to beg for/steal some corn to feed his children. He fought for the Confederacy and the murderin' cousin was a Union man. After all they had been through in the war they could not let it go.
They were just horrific times.

And I have to say- although I was raised near there by a mother with a pronounced accent, I moved away for 30 years and to a great degree lost mine. Just two nights of watching these guys and I have caught myself THINKING in hick.
It just "warshes" back over me like I never left.

By and large I think the accents in the show are ok. Not great.
But my NYC born and raised husband has to have subtitles on as it is to understand them so I guess more accent was best ruled out.
The Appalachian English entry in wiki is pretty good and illustrates the accent well.
I love it.
I just love the whole area and the people within.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:32 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by getreal

Hmmmmm ... I think you meant "medieval" in that earlier post, before you corrected someone else's spelling of "succeed" vs "secede".

BUSTED!
I don't mind getting pointed out when my typing on my iPad or I myself mess up.

I wasn't correcting the other post. I thought it was a fun typo that completely changed the meaning in a humorous way.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:33 PM   #104
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140-150 years ago is nothing- it can't have been all that different.
I'm not an arborist, but for a lot of trees, 140-150 years is A LOT. It's really only things like redwoods where you need many hundreds of years to get huge.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:34 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by RonDawg

You're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine, thanks.

Personally, I don't think anybody else besides you really cares what it's called.
Facts are not opinions. This is not a western. The Hatfields and McCoys were not in the west. Period.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:38 PM   #106
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And I have to say- although I was raised near there by a mother with a pronounced accent, I moved away for 30 years and to a great degree lost mine. Just two nights of watching these guys and I have caught myself THINKING in hick.
It just "warshes" back over me like I never left.
OK, it's not really hick at all, but your post reminded me of it..

There's lots of words I'm curious about whether they were used back then.

The 'b' word.
I think they said "humping" and a few other I-thought-were-more-modern euphemisms for sex.

I'm actually somewhat glad they had more mature language here.. Or rather, it's better than bleeping it out or using RIDICULOUSLY silly euphemisms.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:03 PM   #107
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Facts are not opinions. This is not a western. The Hatfields and McCoys were not in the west. Period.
Whatever
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:17 PM   #108
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I'm not an arborist, but for a lot of trees, 140-150 years is A LOT. It's really only things like redwoods where you need many hundreds of years to get huge.
Not to mention one of the main plots in the first episode was an argument over timber.

Obviously it's not unusual for the timber to be scarce if they are cutting it all down to sell it.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:59 AM   #109
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I'm not an arborist, but for a lot of trees, 140-150 years is A LOT. It's really only things like redwoods where you need many hundreds of years to get huge.
You've missed the forest for the trees.
My point was 140-150 years is NOT enough time for topography to morph and the entire spectrum of indigenous plants disappear and be replaced by European species.
I did not see the first hickory or poplar or white oak or in the six hours I watched and I was looking.
That was my point.

They took some liberties with Randolph's death.
He did die of injuries related to a fire but I don't believe he was engulfed- just an arm or something. He was in his late 80's by that time and I think infection got him.

By and large the abiding impression I came away with is that the children and relatives of these two men made one dumbass move after another. If someone had just picked off Jim Vance early on the whole thing could have been avoided.
All the moonshine didn't help.

Good miniseries!
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:40 AM   #110
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By and large the abiding impression I came away with is that the children and relatives of these two men made one dumbass move after another. If someone had just picked off Jim Vance early on the whole thing could have been avoided!
Assuming the historical accuracy of the miniseries is correct, it seems like the biggest instigators were not the family patriarchs, but trusted members within their families.

For the Hatfields, it was most definitely Jim Vance, with Cap being his faithful soldier. For the McCoys, I would say it's equally shared between lawyer Perry Cline and Pinkerton man turned bounty hunter "Bad" Frank Phillips.

I also agree that if Jim Vance had been taken out much earlier, this struggle wouldn't have nearly been as bloody. Even Devil Anse wondered aloud to his wife that he would eventually had to have killed Vance himself.

I was sad to see "Cotton Top" being executed. While he deserved to go to jail for killing one of the young McCoy girls, I truly believe it was an accident, and his mental state simply shows he doesn't have the malice aforethought for murder, much less a capital offense. If anybody should have been hanged for that crime, it should have been Cap (who was mentioned at the end becoming a deputy sheriff), since he was the #2 guy in that raid on the McCoy homestead. Jim Vance of course was the leader, but then he got what was coming to him at the hands of "Bad" Frank.

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Good miniseries!
Issues with the set aside, I'm sure Costner would be happy to hear that a bona-fide hillbilly thinks it was a good portrayal of America's most famous feud. Or should the term be "Appalachian-American?"
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:41 AM   #111
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My point was 140-150 years is NOT enough time for topography to morph and the entire spectrum of indigenous plants disappear and be replaced by European species.
I did not see the first hickory or poplar or white oak or in the six hours I watched and I was looking.
That was my point.
I'm pretty sure you realize that you are effectively arguing they shouldn't have made the show because they couldn't afford to shoot in WV and KY, and that you know how silly that is.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:51 AM   #112
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There's lots of words I'm curious about whether they were used back then.

The 'b' word.
I think they said "humping" and a few other I-thought-were-more-modern euphemisms for sex.
If the "b" word you are talking about ends in "-tard" that I am sure was in use back then, and I believe the definition at that time was someone born out of wedlock.

I don't recall them using "humping" but when Randall McCoy walked into the bedroom for the first time since his return from the war, and his wife expecting (but not being particularly looking forward) to have sex with him, she asks him not to "spill his seed" inside of her. That seemed a little too modern.
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:09 AM   #113
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If the "b" word you are talking about ends in "-tard" that I am sure was in use back then, and I believe the definition at that time was someone born out of wedlock.
The one ending in "-itch" was used to describe a female a man didn't approve of (in the fight scene where Nancy McCoy gets beaten up).
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I don't recall them using "humping" but when Randall McCoy walked into the bedroom for the first time since his return from the war, and his wife expecting (but not being particularly looking forward) to have sex with him, she asks him not to "spill his seed" inside of her. That seemed a little too modern.
Modern? That's from the Bible!
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:28 AM   #114
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I was sad to see "Cotton Top" being executed. While he deserved to go to jail for killing one of the young McCoy girls, I truly believe it was an accident, and his mental state simply shows he doesn't have the malice aforethought for murder, much less a capital offense.
Issues with the set aside, I'm sure Costner would be happy to hear that a bona-fide hillbilly thinks it was a good portrayal of America's most famous feud. Or should the term be "Appalachian-American?"
We're mountain people

I haven't looked, but wondered why Cottontop received a hanging sentence while all the others got life.
That didn't seem right.

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I'm pretty sure you realize that you are effectively arguing they shouldn't have made the show because they couldn't afford to shoot in WV and KY, and that you know how silly that is.
Yup.
And I said way back that if people would stop responding to me I'd quit talking about it.
I only want folks to realize the natural beauty of the area. We have an incredibly diverse and truly unique ecosystem and it pained me to see it misrepresented.
That's all.
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:52 AM   #115
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I agree with Toni that terrain is an important part of the story. Families would live somewhat in isolation. It was not an easy "Lets get the buckboard and take the family to town." type of society.

I saw an article on the Hatfields vs the McCoys on ABC Word news and it looks like the families have reunions and other events together.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:56 AM   #116
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I'm still holding these in their folder. How are you guys liking it so far? I'm kind of sensitive to extreme cruelty (like killing people's kids in front of them, stuff like that). Is this a "family friendly" type show or it "pretty bad" with all the blood, cruelty and killing? In other words, is this thing going haunt me?
I found it haunting. I won't say I had nightmares about it, but kind of images flickering thru my dreams. Lots of killing, many shots of the deceased and their wounds.

Even so, I truly enjoyed watching it - kind of the sick fascination of watching the slow-motion replays of a train wreck.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:10 PM   #117
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I haven't looked, but wondered why Cottontop received a hanging sentence while all the others got life.
I believe it was due to attorney incompetence, if not outright malfeasance, at the hands of Perry Cline. Remember during the trial phase when Cotton Top kept saying "But you told me to say that I had shot her"?

That's why I found it odd that despite him working primarily for the McCoys (and being one himself) he was representing the Hatfields as well.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:16 PM   #118
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I can handle blood and shooting. I just can't handle extreme (messed up in the head type) cruelty... Kind of a Wuss in that regard. I had to stop watching "The Shield" for instance and some of the scenes from "Oz" still haunt me to this day.
There are some scenes which depict in an incredible amount of depravity.

Spoiler:
For example, when the one McCoy (?) was shot dead in the road after making a loud and drunken boast about cutting the nuts off of members of the other family? It wasn't enough that he had been shot multiple times, but then one of the opposite family had to go up to him and repeatedly stab him in the groin too.

Or, when the 3 young McCoys were executed in the forest for their role in the killing of Anse's younger brother at the carnival, after they were shot and clearly dead, Jim Vance had to go up to each one personally and put another round into them.

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Old 05-31-2012, 12:28 PM   #119
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BTW while Toni will take issue with its claims of "landscape accuracy" this video describes filming in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains in Romania:

http://www.history.com/shows/hatfiel...mes-appalachia
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:41 PM   #120
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Is there a real picture of this scene? It seemed like they were setting it up to match something that was really taken:


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