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Old 11-21-2015, 06:46 PM   #1
JohnB1000
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Doctor Who S9E10 Face the Raven

Amazing episode. I thought last week was terrible and the season as a whole has not captured my attention well but this was great. I thought the episode was fantastic even before the Clara stuff (which if anything was the weakest part for me). I loved the idea of the street, and Me is one of the best ever characters in so far that you just can't figure out if she is good, bad, confused or something else.

I hope the payoff of who has taken him is not a disappointment.

I think they left just enough room if they ever want to bring Clara back. Right up until the last moment I expected them to not kill her right now but then I was ready to call "Glenn" on that

I hope the next two weeks are as good.

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Old 11-22-2015, 05:47 AM   #2
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So much for any hope of Ashildir becoming one of the Doctor's companions.

I'll miss you, Clara. I wonder who the next companion(s) will be.

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Old 11-22-2015, 06:02 AM   #3
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I wonder who the next companion(s) will be.
Rumor has it
Spoiler:
they don't know yet.

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:29 AM   #4
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So much for any hope of Ashildir becoming one of the Doctor's companions.

I'll miss you, Clara. I wonder who the next companion(s) will be.
I don't see any reason she couldn't be the next companion depending on how much she helps the Doctor in the coming episodes, I think she'd be even better now that she's had conflict with him, but I don't think it's as nice as it would have been before these events.

I won't miss Clara (if she does perish, this is Who after all) She was tolerable as a Matt Smith companion at times, but no Pond family, and no Donna or Capt Jack.

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:32 AM   #5
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I thought Clara is/was like the 12th Doctor...a wonderful character with whom Moffat could not figure out what to do.

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Old 11-22-2015, 10:00 AM   #6
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I thought Clara's death in Diagon Alley was kind of pointless. I hope the next two episodes put it into context and give it some sort of meaning.

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Old 11-22-2015, 10:31 AM   #7
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They've been pretty clear that Maisie will not be the next companion.

Now about that episode

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Old 11-22-2015, 11:45 AM   #8
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They've been pretty clear that Maisie will not be the next companion.
Doesn't mean I have to agree.. she'd be an awesome companion IMNSHO

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Old 11-22-2015, 11:47 AM   #9
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I'm not sure she's that great of an actress, I thought the highwayman performance was pretty poor. But I would like to see a different, antagonistic, relationship between companion and Doctor..

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Old 11-22-2015, 12:17 PM   #10
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Doesn't mean I have to agree.. she'd be an awesome companion IMNSHO
I agree with you on this but disagree with you on Clara as I've enjoyed her as a companion.

Scott

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Old 11-22-2015, 12:29 PM   #11
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I thought Clara is/was like the 12th Doctor...a wonderful character with whom Moffat could not figure out what to do.
Sometimes writers fall in love with their own characters and the whole story goes out of balance afterwards. Is this one of these times?

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Old 11-22-2015, 12:59 PM   #12
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I was actually worried for the first 10 minutes or so of the episode, as it was meandering around in a uninteresting fashion - a jumble of recycled plot points.

Then as soon as they found the street, everything kicked up a notch, and it was great right until the end.

But the ending confused me. Ashildir's plan was to mark someone for death in a way that drew in the doctor, capture, and teleport him away as part of a deal she made with someone else. Having no interest in actually killing the person in question, she intended to remove the mark, so nobody actually dies.

How did transferring the mark to Clara screw things up so badly she could no longer remove it, and someone now had to die? Why could it have not been transferred back to local dude if he was willing? They tried to explain it, but the explanation made no sense to me. (I may have to watch it again)

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Old 11-22-2015, 01:14 PM   #13
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I guess it was weak but my thought was that it could not be removed once transferred.

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Old 11-22-2015, 07:58 PM   #14
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I was actually worried for the first 10 minutes or so of the episode, as it was meandering around in a uninteresting fashion - a jumble of recycled plot points. Then as soon as they found the street, everything kicked up a notch, and it was great right until the end. But the ending confused me. Ashildir's plan was to mark someone for death in a way that drew in the doctor, capture, and teleport him away as part of a deal she made with someone else. Having no interest in actually killing the person in question, she intended to remove the mark, so nobody actually dies. How did transferring the mark to Clara screw things up so badly she could no longer remove it, and someone now had to die? Why could it have not been transferred back to local dude if he was willing? They tried to explain it, but the explanation made no sense to me. (I may have to watch it again)
It just is that way. The deal was between Ashildir and the shade. Once Clara took the lock, he changed the deal. Ashildir could no longer end the deal.

If you have trouble with that, just think of it as a one time transfer like a tax break in selling your home.

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Old 11-22-2015, 07:59 PM   #15
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I actually wondered what would happen if Ashildir could take the lock for herself. Would she die but not die? Of course, to make sure Clara dies, they just would say she couldn't.

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:30 PM   #16
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How did transferring the mark to Clara screw things up so badly she could no longer remove it, and someone now had to die? Why could it have not been transferred back to local dude if he was willing? They tried to explain it, but the explanation made no sense to me. (I may have to watch it again)
From a punitive standpoint, it makes sense. If you allowed transfers to be canceled, then you could play to the punisher's personal connections by having someone he or she cares about take on the punishment, thus creating an incentive for the punisher to cancel it.

The idea is that the to-be-punished can only be released from his or her punishment by convincing the punisher that he or she does not deserve punishment. Transferring the death sentence still punishes the convicted person, but with the loss of a loved one instead of death.

Making the transfers one way means that whoever accepts the death sentence has to really want it, and not merely be playing a game of chicken with the punisher, giving the sentence back at the last moment if the punisher still doesn't relent.

It could also be that transfers are a one time thing as well. So not only couldn't you transfer the mark back to someone who's had it, you couldn't transfer the mark to anyone else.

The Doctor didn't offer to take Clara's marking, so that does support the one-time transfer theory. But it could have also been because he knew Clara wouldn't have given it to him. However, I think he would have still tried if it were possible.

Clara thought she had found a loophole (Me had promised to protect her, and wouldn't let her die), but didn't realize it had already been thought of.

What I was unclear about, however, was whether the quantum shade was a lifeform engineered as a punishment tool or a sentient creature that enjoyed killing, but could only interact with those who had a marking that had hit 0.

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Old 11-23-2015, 12:43 AM   #17
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Doesn't mean I have to agree.. she'd be an awesome companion IMNSHO
hmmm....nah. She's too young and mousy next to Capaldi. He needs an older companion, doesn't he? Not someone he has to look out for. Bring back River Song for a few shows

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Old 11-23-2015, 12:45 AM   #18
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"Don't run. Why do they always run...?"

Good scripts don't waste a single line of dialogue.

Just saying...

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Old 11-23-2015, 01:44 AM   #19
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hmmm....nah. She's too young and mousy next to Capaldi. He needs an older companion, doesn't he? Not someone he has to look out for. Bring back River Song for a few shows
She's around 1200 years old, and although not invulnerable, far less vulnerable than most of the Doctor's companions. I don't think having to look out for her is something that the Doctor would worry about.

He might not want her as a companion for other reasons such as not becoming too jaded about experiencing things and her setting up a situation that resulted in Clara's death. But being young and vulnerable wouldn't be why.

I think they are setting her up more as a cameo companion like River, though. Since she has such a long life, they can just have her show up in any story where it works out. Actually, Clara now falls into that category as well. Or rather, the incarnations of her that were split across the Doctor's timeline. Presumably some of those incarnations ended up in his future as well as his past (relative to his age when she went in).

It's hard to tell how much Clara might have aged traveling with the Doctor, but no incarnation that he's encountered of her (including the original) has made it past 35, and probably not even 30. I'm sure that has to sting. Granted, the first one was a Dalek. But still.

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Old 11-23-2015, 02:12 AM   #20
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She's around 1200 years old, and although not invulnerable, far less vulnerable than most of the Doctor's companions.

It's hard to tell how much Clara might have aged traveling with the Doctor, but no incarnation that he's encountered of her (including the original) has made it past 35, and probably not even 30. I'm sure that has to sting. Granted, the first one was a Dalek. But still.
Isn't this the ick-factor, Sci-fi-speak for justifying the old man-young woman relationship? I wonder if the slide in the ratings are all the young viewers who got hooked on Matt Smith being disallusioned at the thought of being grandpas companion...

Seeing that I found Game of Thrones a crushing, mysoginistic bore, maybe that's why I don't look forward to one of its cast-offs invading my beloved Whoville

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Old 11-23-2015, 02:59 AM   #21
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"Don't run. Why do they always run...?"

Good scripts don't waste a single line of dialogue.

Just saying...
This reminds me of one of my favourite Doctor Who lines.

In Blink employee in DVD store talking to the film:
Go to the police, you stupid woman. Why does nobody ever just go to the police?

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Old 11-23-2015, 08:40 AM   #22
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I'm still thinking that Ashildir could be a Time Lord/Lady.

My reason for this: In the episode where her and the Doctor first met, the Doctor had a sense of familiarity. I don't think this was ever fully explained.

Sure, she was dead without a regeneration - but this seemed to happen before - #7 (McCoy) regenerated to #8 (McGann). McCoy was actually in a body bag at the morgue before his other heart jump started the other.

If the Doctor recognized her because of his non-linear travels through time, this would go against the tendency of the Doctor *mostly* always remembering a face.

In the old series, I seem to recall that Time Lords had a better ability to see through regenerations. This ability hasn't really been demonstrated in the new series.

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Old 11-23-2015, 08:47 AM   #23
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If the Doctor recognized her because of his non-linear travels through time, this would go against the tendency of the Doctor *mostly* always remembering a face.
Although THIS Doctor seems to be pretty terrible with faces...he, e.g., can't tell the difference between Clara at 28 (or whatever she is) and Clara as an old lady. And I recall other examples of him being baffled by human faces.

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Old 11-23-2015, 10:31 AM   #24
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I'm sad to see Clara go, if only for the fact that I find the actress incredibly cute (even though her face is so wide she has to use three mirrors).

I kept expecting the Doctor to throw her in the stasis chamber to cheat death and was surprised when she did, indeed, die. Of course, with Clara spread through the Doctor's own timeline, I suppose there's always a way to bring her back once in a while.

I wonder what the next companion will be like. Young? Old? Male? Female? Dumb? Smart? A single companion? Two or more?

I always hate it when they make a major change like this and yet the next companion (or Doctor) always seems to interesting enough that I eventually warm up to them.

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Old 11-23-2015, 10:33 AM   #25
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Seeing that I found Game of Thrones a crushing, mysoginistic bore, maybe that's why I don't look forward to one of its cast-offs invading my beloved Whoville
Just be glad the raven didn't have three eyes.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:16 AM   #26
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I'm still thinking that Ashildir could be a Time Lord/Lady. My reason for this: In the episode where her and the Doctor first met, the Doctor had a sense of familiarity. I don't think this was ever fully explained. Sure, she was dead without a regeneration - but this seemed to happen before - #7 (McCoy) regenerated to #8 (McGann). McCoy was actually in a body bag at the morgue before his other heart jump started the other. If the Doctor recognized her because of his non-linear travels through time, this would go against the tendency of the Doctor *mostly* always remembering a face. In the old series, I seem to recall that Time Lords had a better ability to see through regenerations. This ability hasn't really been demonstrated in the new series.
Nice theory but I'm not buying it. Her extended lifetime has already been explained. The Doctor did it. Has she become an off shoot of the Time Lord "race?" You could argue that as River is already considered that but River regenerates. Typically Time Lords do age and Ashildr does not. You could postulate that Ahsildr regenerates into herself each time. As the Doctor seemed to re-become Tom Baker, it is possible.

But it really comes down to the fact that we've already seen her story. The Doctor, in playing God, created an immortal person who does not age and has otherwise human traits (limited memory, etc).

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:23 AM   #27
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Isn't this the ick-factor, Sci-fi-speak for justifying the old man-young woman relationship?
Do you mean a romantic relationship portrayed by actors with a big age difference?

We do seem to judge things more based on the actors' age differences rather than the characters'.

That's why we are fine with tv shows and movies about vampires hundreds of years old having romantic relationships with high school students, but if someone wrote a story about a 50-year-old regular human doing the same thing, we would wonder what kind of sick person came up with that plot.

It's only an issue, however, if they want to set up some kind of romantic relationship between Me and the Doctor, and I'm fairly certain they wouldn't do that even if she were to become a regular companion.

In any case, not only is River younger than 2000 / 2 + 7 = 1007, but she is the daughter of two of the Doctor's closest friends. So we already know he's a perv.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:37 AM   #28
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Nice theory but I'm not buying it. Her extended lifetime has already been explained. The Doctor did it.
In fact, he did so by configuring the healing device to work on humans. I doubt it would have worked had she not been human.

The Doctor seemed familiar to her and she to him because of their premonitions, which the Doctor explained as remembering things in the wrong direction.

They have't yet explained why they were in each other's future memories. Maybe it was because the Doctor would save Ashildr's life, and she would set things in motion that would result in Clara's death. Or maybe there is still something even more significant yet to come.

I don't know that we will ever know for certain because the writers probably want to leave things open.

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Old 11-23-2015, 11:40 AM   #29
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"Don't run. Why do they always run...?"

Good scripts don't waste a single line of dialogue.

Just saying...
Yep-- The whole story seemed to have a Harry Potter vibe to it-- kind of like Diagon Alley and all the charms in that series to hide things in plain sight. Clara's willingness to sacrifice herself and not run from it was significant I think-- very similar to the movie portrayal of HP.

I kind of wish it hadn't been so reminiscent of HP-- kind of cheapened it in my mind.

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Old 11-23-2015, 02:31 PM   #30
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Do you mean a romantic relationship portrayed by actors with a big age difference?

We do seem to judge things more based on the actors' age differences rather than the characters'.

That's why we are fine with tv shows and movies about vampires hundreds of years old having romantic relationships with high school students, but if someone wrote a story about a 50-year-old regular human doing the same thing, we would wonder what kind of sick person came up with that plot.

It's only an issue, however, if they want to set up some kind of romantic relationship between Me and the Doctor, and I'm fairly certain they wouldn't do that even if she were to become a regular companion.

In any case, not only is River younger than 2000 / 2 + 7 = 1007, but she is the daughter of two of the Doctor's closest friends. So we already know he's a perv.
I think there was a reason the Tennant / Piper combo was the most liked and likely highest rated - they were close enough in age, visually, to have the romantic interest on the table. Runner up being Smith / Gillan.
I find those vampire films wretched. lol. It's not how old you feel, it's how old you look...

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