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Old 06-11-2012, 07:43 PM   #301
mikeyts
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...when the HDMI connection resyncs.
Are you certain that this has to do with HDMI? Long ago in the pre-HDMI days, when I had a CRT RPTV, any switch in resolution format over component caused a visual glitch; in that case it took the television a few seconds to adapt. The same thing happens to my LCD panel today over HDMI, which is why I use fix resolution for everything. I know that guys with fancy outboard video processors like for their equipment to send native format video to be processed in those. I've never known whether those do some kind of visual skip when a switch occurs or not.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:07 PM   #302
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Are you certain that this has to do with HDMI? Long ago in the pre-HDMI days, when I had a CRT RPTV, any switch in resolution format over component caused a visual glitch; in that case it took the television a few seconds to adapt. The same thing happens to my LCD panel today over HDMI, which is why I use fix resolution for everything. I know that guys with fancy outboard video processors like for their equipment to send native format video to be processed in those. I've never known whether those do some kind of visual skip when a switch occurs or not.
I think it used to be a split second with analog HD and my scalers/video processors. But that was many years ago. I got my first HDMi devices in 2004 and in 2007 finally replaced my last analog TV so I've been using HDMI for everything since then. So my memory might be fuzzy on it.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:34 PM   #303
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I think it used to be a split second with analog HD and my scalers/video processors. But that was many years ago. I got my first HDMi devices in 2004 and in 2007 finally replaced my last analog TV so I've been using HDMI for everything since then. So my memory might be fuzzy on it.
Switching resolutions takes a few seconds. A good example is switching resolutions on your computer and seeing the monitor re-sync. So even over component you'll have this problem, though I don't believe 1080p/24 works over component.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:38 AM   #304
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Switching resolutions takes a few seconds. A good example is switching resolutions on your computer and seeing the monitor re-sync. So even over component you'll have this problem, though I don't believe 1080p/24 works over component.
If I change resolutions on on my PCs, My monitors take a split second to change, not a few seconds(it's very quick). I f I change resolutions from a BD player or media player, it takes one to two seconds to change.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:10 AM   #305
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I guess I've been calling it the wrong thing. I think it's not so much an HDMI issue as it is an HDCP issue that causes the delay.
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Old 06-12-2012, 02:34 PM   #306
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I guess I've been calling it the wrong thing. I think it's not so much an HDMI issue as it is an HDCP issue that causes the delay.
Neither makes any sense to me. HDCP is a security protocol and I don't see where the video format of the data being protected would matter at all to it; the payload is just so many bits so far as it would be concerned. HDMI is mindful of the format of the payload, but I don't think that it would need to adapt to a change in resolution format. I blame it entirely on the televisions, which have to stop scaling one format to display resolution and start scaling another. I could be wrong .
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:00 PM   #307
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I'm basing this on when I tried switching resolutions on my PC monitors this morning with different devices. From the PCs they did it in a split second, but from devices with HDCP it took up to a couple of seconds. My monitors can definitely change resolutions in a split second so something else is causing the delay when the resolution is changed from a consumer electronics device.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:07 PM   #308
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My PC monitor takes 2-3 seconds to switch resolutions. Reminded of this every time Windows wants administrative access to install something (UAC). At least that's what I've always attributed it too...
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:32 PM   #309
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Again, the HDCP protocol shouldn't give a damn what's in the payload or have any awareness of it whatsoever on a functional level (it might have some packet fields describing it, but that'd be more of an HDMI thing).

It would change timing--adjusting to that is something which might reasonably cause an HDMI-level hiccup.

EDIT: I have a lot of different devices connected to this 5 y/o Mits 1080p LCD panel. No matter what I make the format change on (by adjusting settings) this PC, the PS3, Xbox or Roku 2, it takes 3 seconds to go from 1080p to 720p or vice-versa (the PC is connected via an HDMI-to-DVI-D cable to a DVI-I PC-specific connection on the television; DVI-I is hybrid DVI-D and DVI-A and I had a secondary VGA output of my old PC connected to it before I replaced it with this one, which has an HDMI out).
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:24 PM   #310
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Again, the HDCP protocol shouldn't give a damn what's in the payload or have any awareness of it whatsoever on a functional level (it might have some packet fields describing it, but that'd be more of an HDMI thing).

It would change timing--adjusting to that is something which might reasonably cause an HDMI-level hiccup.

EDIT: I have a lot of different devices connected to this 5 y/o Mits 1080p LCD panel. No matter what I make the format change on (by adjusting settings) this PC, the PS3, Xbox or Roku 2, it takes 3 seconds to go from 1080p to 720p or vice-versa (the PC is connected via an HDMI-to-DVI-D cable to a DVI-I PC-specific connection on the television; DVI-I is hybrid DVI-D and DVI-A and I had a secondary VGA output of my old PC connected to it before I replaced it with this one, which has an HDMI out).
I was just going by the HDMi inputs of my PC monitors. My main HD set has always taken a couple of seconds when changing resolutions. But I have never used anything but one HDMI input on the TV. All my devices go through my scaler which then always feeds 1080P to the TV.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:47 PM   #311
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I was just going by the HDMi inputs of my PC monitors. My main HD set has always taken a couple of seconds when changing resolutions. But I have never used anything but one HDMI input on the TV. All my devices go through my scaler which then always feeds 1080P to the TV.
So the scaler takes a couple of seconds to make the switch.

All of my devices other than this PC are routed through my AVR into the same HDMI input on the television. The television can't accept a p24 input but it seems as though the AVR can convert.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:20 AM   #312
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So the scaler takes a couple of seconds to make the switch.

All of my devices other than this PC are routed through my AVR into the same HDMI input on the television. The television can't accept a p24 input but it seems as though the AVR can convert.
I have bypassed the scaler and gone straight to my receiver when messing around with it's capabilities. But it makes no difference in the time when there is a change.

I guess to really test it I need to hook my laptop or netbook to one of the other HDMi inputs of the TV and change the resolution. And then connect a BD or media player as well to see what it does.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:48 AM   #313
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:08 PM   #314
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I have bypassed the scaler and gone straight to my receiver when messing around with it's capabilities. But it makes no difference in the time when there is a change.
Changing the resolution will change the pixel clock frequency. My suspicion is that the delay occurs at the first HDMI sink in the chain has to deal with that, whether it's your scaler or your AVR or your television. It has to resync to the data and start scaling at the new resolution. I've recently seen that my AVR will take p24 from my BD player (a Panasonic DMP-BDT220, which can be set to output native p24 from the VOD players when that's the video's native frame rate, which will be the great majority of titles). That the pause should be whole seconds seems intuitively unreasonable but I don't know the issues involved.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:07 PM   #315
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I just got a Premiere a couple weeks ago. I'm also not happy with the Netflix app. Issues with it having dropouts are annoying. It is definitely related to the resolution change. Why can't they just have a fixed resolution? At first I was excited because it LOOKS just like the Netflix app that is on my LG Bluray player (which is awesome), but it doesn't function the same. I've never had dropouts, or other issues with the LG. I also don't see anything when its fast forwarding or rewinding. Stop button doesn't work (Harmony) either. Seems like the only way to exit out of the app is to hit the Live TV button. Hopefully they work out some of the issues because it could be great, like the LG app.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:15 PM   #316
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I just got a Premiere a couple weeks ago. I'm also not happy with the Netflix app. Issues with it having dropouts are annoying. It is definitely related to the resolution change. Why can't they just have a fixed resolution? At first I was excited because it LOOKS just like the Netflix app that is on my LG Bluray player (which is awesome), but it doesn't function the same. I've never had dropouts, or other issues with the LG. I also don't see anything when its fast forwarding or rewinding. Stop button doesn't work (Harmony) either. Seems like the only way to exit out of the app is to hit the Live TV button. Hopefully they work out some of the issues because it could be great, like the LG app.
To get rid of the resolution problem, you only need to set your TiVo to 1080i or 720p only. The dropouts are because conditions on your connection to Netflix's server are such that the player can't sustain 1080p24; unfortunately to get rid of them you have to forego the 1080p encodings, since the TiVo can't convert other resolutions/frame rates into 1080p24 or change the frame rate of 1080p24 for output.
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Old 06-13-2012, 06:52 PM   #317
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To get rid of the resolution problem, you only need to set your TiVo to 1080i or 720p only. The dropouts are because conditions on your connection to Netflix's server are such that the player can't sustain 1080p24; unfortunately to get rid of them you have to forego the 1080p encodings, since the TiVo can't convert other resolutions/frame rates into 1080p24 or change the frame rate of 1080p24 for output.
Walked through the process w/ the Tivo tech. No change in resolution-still degraded.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:38 PM   #318
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Walked through the process w/ the Tivo tech. No change in resolution-still degraded.
In what way degraded? Not the couple-of-seconds long change to 1080p24?
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:31 PM   #319
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It's an overall degradation of the signal, looks blocky & compressed.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:58 PM   #320
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It's an overall degradation of the signal, looks blocky & compressed.
Which would suggest that you're never getting the higher bit rate encodings, suggesting poor conditions on your connection to Netflix (independent of the rated speed of your network service); insufficient bandwidth on the connection or unresponsive servers. I assume that if you play Netflix on your LG BD player at the same time (not simultaneously, but just before or immediately after running it on the TiVo) you get good PQ?
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Old 06-14-2012, 01:36 AM   #321
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Add a stop button like Hulu Please

Sorry to interrupt here, but I'm going to have to.

Two words....

Stop Button

The "Yellow" button does this in Hulu AND returns me to the main Hulu menu.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:13 AM   #322
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Sorry to interrupt here, but I'm going to have to.

Two words....

Stop Button

The "Yellow" button does this in Hulu AND returns me to the main Hulu menu.
Up stops and returns the the Netflix main screen.
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Old 06-14-2012, 04:36 PM   #323
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To get rid of the resolution problem, you only need to set your TiVo to 1080i or 720p only. The dropouts are because conditions on your connection to Netflix's server are such that the player can't sustain 1080p24; unfortunately to get rid of them you have to forego the 1080p encodings, since the TiVo can't convert other resolutions/frame rates into 1080p24 or change the frame rate of 1080p24 for output.
I don't have 1080p/24 enabled. I like to keep both 720p and 1080i as resolutions so that I am not down-scaling my 1080i channels, nor am I re-interlacing the 720p channels. It should be able to do that...my S3 can handle it just fine and still do Netflix without dropouts.
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Old 06-14-2012, 04:39 PM   #324
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I don't have 1080p/24 enabled. I like to keep both 720p and 1080i as resolutions so that I am not down-scaling my 1080i channels, nor am I re-interlacing the 720p channels. It should be able to do that...my S3 can handle it just fine and still do Netflix without dropouts.
yeah I have the same requirement and issues so I gave up on the TiVo netflix client and just use my PS3 one
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:06 PM   #325
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I don't have 1080p/24 enabled. I like to keep both 720p and 1080i as resolutions so that I am not down-scaling my 1080i channels, nor am I re-interlacing the 720p channels. It should be able to do that...my S3 can handle it just fine and still do Netflix without dropouts.
The S3 boxes have 720P encodes for their max. With the S4 even if you set it for 720P and 1080i, it will start at the lower resolutions and scale it to 720P. then it will switch to 1080i output at some point. The only way to avoid this is to select one resolution output.

No idea what it's using when it outputs 1080i(maybe mikeyts knows). But when I checked it out this is what it did. While if I have 720P, 1080i and 1080P24 checked, it will output 720P initially and then switch to 1080P24.
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:39 PM   #326
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Which would suggest that you're never getting the higher bit rate encodings, suggesting poor conditions on your connection to Netflix (independent of the rated speed of your network service); insufficient bandwidth on the connection or unresponsive servers. I assume that if you play Netflix on your LG BD player at the same time (not simultaneously, but just before or immediately after running it on the TiVo) you get good PQ?
I stream Netflix through another Series 3 HD with the same network conditions, but has excellent quality.

The streaming quality on the Premier XL was excellent before the Netflix app
update.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #327
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No idea what it's using when it outputs 1080i(maybe mikeyts knows). But when I checked it out this is what it did. While if I have 720P, 1080i and 1080P24 checked, it will output 720P initially and then switch to 1080P24.
I feel fairly certain that if you have 720p, 1080i and 1080p checked, it should only output 720p and 1080p. If you have 1080i checked by itself it will only output the 720p encoding, scaled to 1080i--it can't scale 1080p24 to 1080i, so it won't ever buffer 1080p.

If you have 720p and 1080i checked, how will it output 480p?

Quote:
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I stream Netflix through another Series 3 HD with the same network conditions, but has excellent quality.

The streaming quality on the Premier XL was excellent before the Netflix app
update.
The old app used a completely different set of encodings and if conditions on your connection to Netflix's server changed it would pause and rebuffer a lower bit rate without the the ability to return to higher quality.

I'm sorry that the new app isn't working well for you, but obviously that isn't the case for everyone. The people it does work for gain the 1080p encodings and the ability to browse a subset of titles and to search all of them from within the application. It's new--there will bugs for some people and hopefully it will improve over time.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:20 AM   #328
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I feel fairly certain that if you have 720p, 1080i and 1080p checked, it should only output 720p and 1080p. If you have 1080i checked by itself it will only output the 720p encoding, scaled to 1080i--it can't scale 1080p24 to 1080i, so it won't ever buffer 1080p.

If you have 720p and 1080i checked, how will it output 480p?

..............
480P is scaled to 720P.
And when 720P, 1080i, and 1080P is checked it goes from 720P to 1080P24.

But when it has only 720P and 1080i checked it goes from 720P to 1080i. That is what is confusing. I have no idea why it goes to 1080i or what encoding it's using for 1080i since it only has 1080P24 pass through. All my boxes behave the same way if only 720P and 1080i is checked. I guess it could still be using the 720P encode and swicthing to scaling the 720P content to 1080i?

Or is can scale the 1080P24 to 1080i just not up 1080P60. That might be what it's doing. Since, if I remember right, even with Amazon 1080P24 downloads, it's still able to output that 1080P24 content to 1080i and lower resolutions.

That would really be the only thing that explains it going from 720P to 1080i when streaming. It's interlacing the 1080P24 content to 1080i.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:55 AM   #329
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my netflix video frooze again and I had to pull the plug on the TiVo. Tried 666 clear to no avail, remote IR led would occasionally respond.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:52 PM   #330
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480P is scaled to 720P.
And when 720P, 1080i, and 1080P is checked it goes from 720P to 1080P24.

But when it has only 720P and 1080i checked it goes from 720P to 1080i. That is what is confusing. I have no idea why it goes to 1080i or what encoding it's using for 1080i since it only has 1080P24 pass through. All my boxes behave the same way if only 720P and 1080i is checked. I guess it could still be using the 720P encode and swicthing to scaling the 720P content to 1080i?

Or is can scale the 1080P24 to 1080i just not up 1080P60. That might be what it's doing. Since, if I remember right, even with Amazon 1080P24 downloads, it's still able to output that 1080P24 content to 1080i and lower resolutions.

That would really be the only thing that explains it going from 720P to 1080i when streaming. It's interlacing the 1080P24 content to 1080i.
A friend of mine at TiVo has been trying to order a "Friends and Family" package for me. (He ran into a bug in their order system which affects a very small subset of employees wherein it sends the company address in Alviso to his bank as his billing address, which the bank rejects; he's trying to find a way around the problem and as a last resort he'll get a co-worker to order it). In any case, when I get it I'll run some bandwidth consumption measurements using the realtime monitor in my router's open source firmware.
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