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Old 05-07-2012, 11:10 PM   #1
scooterboy
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Castle - Always - 5/7/12

It's about freakin' time!
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:17 PM   #2
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It's about freakin' time!
+1

I loved it!! Bring on season 5. I can't wait - going to be a long 4 months.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:25 PM   #3
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Good episode.

One minor quibble: I *hate* in media res stories. It is such an overused trope. I wish writers would either come up with some unique way to use it, or just forget about it.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:40 AM   #4
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Agreed. Good episode.

However I'm not a fan of the hanging from a building and last second save scenarios they like to do on these kind of shows. In my mind she would have been dead the second she was flung off that building.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:53 AM   #5
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In some of the hanging shots, there appeared to be a fire escape about 6 feet to Beckett's right (and 10 feet down). I don't see why she didn't try to move so that she was above the fire escape and then just let go.

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[in media res] is such an overused trope.
I don't know---I think telling things in chronological order is used even more---shouldn't you be complaining about that?
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:43 AM   #6
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Good episode.

One minor quibble: I *hate* in media res stories. It is such an overused trope. I wish writers would either come up with some unique way to use it, or just forget about it.
Amen, brother! Hate it.

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Old 05-08-2012, 11:12 AM   #7
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One minor quibble: I *hate* in media res stories. It is such an overused trope. I wish writers would either come up with some unique way to use it, or just forget about it.
I groaned when that episode started, even before the "3 days earlier" appeared on the screen...I knew it was coming. Bad writers, bad!
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:27 AM   #8
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It's about freakin' time!
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:31 PM   #9
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I hate when they start a story in the middle and go back to the beginning during the telling. Hate that.
Yea but it causes a lot of people to pay attention to figure out as they watch it how they got from here to there. I don't have a problem with it.

Why is it such a problem? In most cases they are still manipulating the audience where its linear or flashback.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:21 PM   #10
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Why is it such a problem?
It feels like they forced me to watch the end of the story before the beginning. For the same reason I don't read the last page of a novel first, or fast-forward to the end of the program to watch the last minute before I have watched the rest of it.

I would not be watching the show if I did not enjoy it on some level. There is no need to treat me like a child with a short attention span that needs to be hooked to watch the entire thing. They should just develop the story naturally, with a beginning, middle, and end.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:30 PM   #11
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For the same reason I don't read the last page of a novel first. (....)
There are plenty of books that employ the same technique. It's a perfectly valid way of telling a story.
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There is no need to treat me like a child with a short attention span (....)
I think you have it backwards---if they were treating you as a child, they'd stick with a purely linear timeline. Since the majority of stories are told that way it takes more attention to follow a story if it's presented in a non-linear manner.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:43 PM   #12
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I'm with john4200 on this.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:57 PM   #13
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There are plenty of books that employ the same technique. It's a perfectly valid way of telling a story.
I think you have it backwards---if they were treating you as a child, they'd stick with a purely linear timeline. Since the majority of stories are told that way it takes more attention to follow a story if it's presented in a non-linear manner.
Showing a short clip of the ending at the beginning is a terrible way to tell a story.

And I certainly don't have it backwards. If the timeline is shuffled for a good reason, and done in an artful way, then your statement would be correct. A good example of such a technique done right would be Iain M. Banks's novel "Use of Weapons". Banks has a specific reason for non-linear story telling, and he does an artful job of weaving things together and revealing backstory at just the right place throughout the story.

But in this episode of Castle, and in most TV programs that do the "XX hours earlier" thing at the beginning, neither of those conditions are met. There is no good reason -- for the story development -- for putting the end at the beginning. And it is done in a clumsy, not artful way, just sticking the end at the beginning and putting in some text "XX hours earlier". That is terrible, lazy storytelling, and I hate it.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:02 PM   #14
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There is no good reason -- for the story development -- for putting the end at the beginning.(...)That is terrible, lazy storytelling, and I hate it.
I just don't see why that's any more terrible or lazy than putting the beginning at the beginning. Both seem equally valid to me.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree....

...though it is 100% clear to me that changing the order of events is not making it "simpler" or "treating you like a child". It's making it harder to follow and therefore expressly not treating you as a child.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:28 PM   #15
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It feels like they forced me to watch the end of the story before the beginning. For the same reason I don't read the last page of a novel first, or fast-forward to the end of the program to watch the last minute before I have watched the rest of it.

I would not be watching the show if I did not enjoy it on some level. There is no need to treat me like a child with a short attention span that needs to be hooked to watch the entire thing. They should just develop the story naturally, with a beginning, middle, and end.
It is natural! How often have you been told something like your uncle died and then you start asking all the details that led up to it.

My mother in law passed away a number of years ago and we learned during the process that my father in law was seeing somebody so we started doing research to fill in the blanks to the rest of the story.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:29 PM   #16
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...though it is 100% clear to me that changing the order of events is not making it "simpler" or "treating you like a child". It's making it harder to follow and therefore expressly not treating you as a child.
It is NOT harder to follow the way they did it this episode, all they did was put a minute of the end at the beginning. It takes about 1 brain cell to follow that.

More importantly, it is very unlikely that the motive of the person responsible for doing it this way was to make it harder to follow. Rather, it is very likely they did it for the reason zalusky already stated. Which is a nice way of saying treating the viewer like a child.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:32 PM   #17
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It is natural! How often have you been told something like your uncle died and then you start asking all the details that led up to it.
That may be a natural thing to do when researching something, but I was talking about a story, not a research project. When I watch a story, I don't want to see the end first. If I did, I would just fast forward to the end and watch it first. Which I never do. Do you?
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #18
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That may be a natural thing to do when researching something, but I was talking about a story, not a research project. When I watch a story, I don't want to see the end first. If I did, I would just fast forward to the end and watch it first. Which I never do. Do you?
I am not talking about a research project. How many times has somebody walked up to you and told you something and essentially told you the result and then you start asking questions to fill in the rest of the story.

Gossip is a great example: Did you hear Mary is getting a divorce! What happened? Her husband was cheating! With who? etc. etc.

We are often told stories out of order. Another classic example is when the story is told from multiple viewpoints and you have to piece them together to get the picture.

I remember a Redford movie where two stories were told simultaneously but in the real time line one of the stories occurred completely after the other one.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:15 PM   #19
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The larger point that many are missing in their zeal to split hairs is that while in media res can be a powerful storytelling device when done well, when it's done poorly (which is basically most of the time that it's been used in the last several years) it is ineffective and detracts from the story.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #20
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Yeah...too often, it isn't "How can we best serve this story?" but "Well, I can't think of a way to make the opening interesting, so why don"t I just start with a scene from the climax?"
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:11 PM   #21
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This show is pretty much guaranteed to be renewed right?
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:36 PM   #22
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This show is pretty much guaranteed to be renewed right?
It would be rather shocking if it weren't. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't gotten the early renewal.

Admittedly, the show tends to wane a bit in the ratings when it isn't coupled with "Dancing." Regardless, it still gets solid ratings, usually a close second for the slot to "Hawaii Five 0," and it beat "Hawaii" last night.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:00 PM   #23
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So, how is Becket going to ge back on the force?
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:08 PM   #24
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Maybe Becket and Castle will start a PI firm.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:30 PM   #25
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Showing a short clip of the ending at the beginning is a terrible way to tell a story.
IMHO, the only TV show that this worked on was Flashpoint.

They showed "The Flashpoint", then what led up to that event.

It was the name of the show, so it worked.

Writers saw this and thought, "We should do this too", not bothering to see why Flashpoint did it.


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Old 05-08-2012, 07:31 PM   #26
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This show is pretty much guaranteed to be renewed right?
Today, TV By the Numbers posted their odds of renewal for different shows. Both of the oddsmakers gaves Castle a 100% chance for renewal...
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:12 AM   #27
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So, how is Becket going to ge back on the force?
Hopefully she doesn't. At least not the same "force" she resigned from. Things have FINALLY moved forward for Castle/Beckett. Time for the entire show to follow suit now too. Something NOT homicide and something NOT NYPD hopefully.(hopefully not involving Animal Mother too)
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:29 AM   #28
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Showing a short clip of the ending at the beginning is a terrible way to tell a story.
Except it wasn't the ending of the story. For one thing the person you THOUGHT would save her from dropping off the roof, didn't. And it may have been the end of that particular case, but it wasn't the ending of the character's story for the episode.

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Yeah...too often, it isn't "How can we best serve this story?" but "Well, I can't think of a way to make the opening interesting, so why don"t I just start with a scene from the climax?"
Obviously this wasn't the climax of the episode. That (or hopefully those) came after the episode ended.

As noted, it can be done well or not. I thought this one wasn't the best use of it I've ever seen, but not the worst either.

The short lived show "The Good Guys" used that storytelling method pretty well. Every episode. John4200 would have hated it.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:03 AM   #29
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Yeah...too often, it isn't "How can we best serve this story?" but "Well, I can't think of a way to make the opening interesting, so why don"t I just start with a scene from the climax?"
It amounts to laziness, most of the time. Instead of having to make the beginning interesting, they just throw in some critical scene from later, to get more interest at the beginning. Most of the time, all they get is annoyance at the beginning.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:23 AM   #30
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The short lived show "The Good Guys" used that storytelling method pretty well. Every episode.
Yes! That's a great example of the device being implemented well. I'm pretty sure that's the only good post-The West Wing example of it.
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