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Old 11-26-2010, 11:46 AM   #1
dbtom
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Is Clear QAM support a dead issue?

Has Tivo given up on trying to support Clear QAM recording?

I've been setting up my parents new Tivo and the Tivo can tune all the locals in clear QAM, but since there is no guide data it's pretty useless. I hooked up an antenna, but I can only reliably get ABC and Fox (they are in an apt).

I really would have thought Tivo would implement this by now. Does anyone know why Tivo does not support this? It would seem that Clear QAM plus Internet content would be a pretty good solution for many people who can get some basic cable, but don't want to pay for a big package.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:18 PM   #2
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Tivo never supported and never intended to suport clear QAM. A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:28 PM   #3
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Why does my HD TiVo DVR need a CableCARD to display Clear QAM channels?
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:19 PM   #4
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A cablecard (with no matter how low a cable package) should only be a couple bucks a month.
Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill. This is similar to the situation at my home.

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Why does my HD TiVo DVR need a CableCARD to display Clear QAM channels?
That's pretty much the same response from the beginning. I had hoped they would change their mind at some point. Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:36 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dbtom View Post
Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill.
I'm not sure that requirement is legal.

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Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done.
I assure you, it is done. I had to rescan every day when I briefly attempted to use clear QAM with my TV on Fios. Other providers do it, too, although I don't know if any others are as bad as that.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:27 PM   #6
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But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?
In Metro Detroit channels are remapped constantly and people complain constantly...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post19529405
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:41 PM   #7
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Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill.
I have Comcast basic cable for about $12 per month and 2 CableCARDs at no charge. I get all my locals in digital SD and HD.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:16 PM   #8
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Has Tivo given up on trying to support Clear QAM recording?
Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:54 PM   #9
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Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.
I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:02 PM   #10
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Moving to a cable card requires an upgrade to a digital package that will add another $60 to the bill. This is similar to the situation at my home.
If the package has digital channels they are required to give them to you upon request. I would try CSR roulette until you find one that will provide them. Another option tried is to upgrade to the more expensive package for a month and downgrade, but keep the cablecard.

Quote:
That's pretty much the same response from the beginning. I had hoped they would change their mind at some point. Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done. I really wish Tivo would reconsider. All they would need to do is to allow manual channel re-mappings. After all, Tivo is a service-- right?
Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:19 PM   #11
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If the package has digital channels they are required to give them to you upon request. I would try CSR roulette until you find one that will provide them. Another option tried is to upgrade to the more expensive package for a month and downgrade, but keep the cablecard.


Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.
Yeah Media Center offers it and mine constantly has issues since FiOS seems to change frequencies weekly if not daily sometimes. I never know if my recording will be what I want or some other random clearqam station. Right now it is just for backups though so it isn't a huge deal for me, but I would never rely on clearqam recordings without a CableCARD.
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:21 PM   #12
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Tivo could offer manual changes, but if they haven't yet, they are extremely unlikely to. Especially when one of their competitors offers that type of service (Moxi and Windows Media Center). The real issue is it shouldn't be so dang hard to get your cable company to provide the card in the first place.
The issue is that the existing cable is as part of the apartment maintenance at no additional cost. If they get cable cards, they essentially move off the apartment plan and need to upgrade. I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.

I see that other areas have changing frequencies-- I just know that this one has not.

Last edited by dbtom : 11-26-2010 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Added other areas comment
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:28 PM   #13
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Tivo's response is technically true-- the frequencies could be re-assigned. But as a practical matter, I've never seen it done.
My cable provider has reassigned channels a couple times but somehow the channel maps didn't update properly in time so for a couple days my channels showed up as no signal until they could download the new VCT.

Both S cards did the same thing. Weird.

As such I don't think they shuffle around frequencies that much.
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:49 PM   #14
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I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.
LOL, you made my day. Get in line behind the Premiere owners (including me now ).
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:55 AM   #15
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I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.
Using the word FIX is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:06 AM   #16
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Using the word FIX is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS
Fair enough to criticize the word "fix". The first time I ran across the Tivo mapping issue was pre-cable card days in 2003. My brother-in-law's apartment building had channel mappings that were different than what Tivo showed. Tribune wouldn't correct the guide. Since there was no way to manually map channels he sold the Tivo on eBay. So when I think of the mapping issue I always think of it fixing that broken guide. The issues are different here but I still think of not being able to create custom maps as a problem. But perhaps you are right-- it's a feature!
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:12 AM   #17
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I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.
Of course there is.
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:54 AM   #18
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Fair enough to criticize the word "fix". The first time I ran across the Tivo mapping issue was pre-cable card days in 2003. My brother-in-law's apartment building had channel mappings that were different than what Tivo showed. Tribune wouldn't correct the guide. Since there was no way to manually map channels he sold the Tivo on eBay. So when I think of the mapping issue I always think of it fixing that broken guide. The issues are different here but I still think of not being able to create custom maps as a problem. But perhaps you are right-- it's a feature!
TiVo gets ding on this form for not meeting their promises quickly, or sometimes not at all, so I was trying to give TiVo a break on this issue as there are many other issues I think TiVo is working on, like making more TP/TPXL menus in HD etc. The CSRs in tech support cost TiVo enough that I would guess they don't want to have a new feature that will cause more calls with little to show in return, as in more sales etc.
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:56 AM   #19
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I can only get the locals on qam and there already mapped to there local ota channel number.
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:35 AM   #20
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Tivo's original wording was something like cable cards may be required for digital stations. That certainly implies under some circumstances a cable card isn't required for digital stations.

Tivo "fixed" it by changing the wording to state cable cards are required for digital stations.








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Using the word FIX is inappropriate for this issue as TiVo never said they would do it at any time, so nothing to fix, there was a hint once that the original Series 3 would make a change to use only one M cable card (and record two channels at the same time) and that never happened, maybe for good reason. I can think of all the mad TiVo users when their program(s) did not record because the cable co changed the mapping, the mapping is not public info and using the station ID as Windows does is far from foolproof and also TiVo does not have all that computer power as Windows Media Center has. You asking for something that may sell a few extra TiVos but not good enough money in it for TiVo to do anything. Remember KISS


Last edited by lew : 11-28-2010 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 01:10 PM   #21
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I saw that thread. Last post was 6 months ago. I was hoping maybe Tivo changed its mind. It seems to be a dead issue in that Tivo will not fix it. That is disappointing.
there is nothing broken. Give it a rest, please
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Old 11-28-2010, 01:27 PM   #22
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Jesus, not again. Read this thread, then come back in a day or so and say I'm sorry I asked.
Hey! that was my thread! I fondly remember it from back before I decided to surrender to the cable companies, get cablecards, and ended up almost doubling the cost of my cable TV service, lol. Call it the hidden cost of Tivo ownership.

It seems to me the issue has become more and more irrelevant as the cablecos move toward encrypting everything. While it's true you can still get the local channels, and probably always will be able to due to legal requirements, the incentive probably isn't there for Tivo to accommodate that market. It's a niche feature and that niche is likely to decrease over time. It's unfortunate as I don't believe it's that much work involved, but Tivo does not show a desire to program niche features.
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Old 11-28-2010, 01:39 PM   #23
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It's a niche feature and that niche is likely to decrease over time. It's unfortunate as I don't believe it's that much work involved, but Tivo does not show a desire to program niche features.
you can believe that, but it simply is not true. For TiVo to put this out as a feature, TiVo would then need to support via CSR calls along with any maintenance in the code base. It simply would involve significant resources for TiVo.

So open source folks or companies as big as Microsoft or companies that do not expect to have to provide much support can throw in features like this but for TiVo it would be a drag on their bottom line for little benefit to their customer base
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:13 PM   #24
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you can believe that, but it simply is not true. For TiVo to put this out as a feature, TiVo would then need to support via CSR calls along with any maintenance in the code base. It simply would involve significant resources for TiVo.
I meant from a technical standpoint. The necessary data structures are probably already there. From a UI perspective, the UI already has a 'channels I receive' screen with checkboxes; it would be a natural extension to add an advanced button that allowed a customer to associate guide data to a channel that had no guide data associated with it. Channels that already had guide data (i.e. encrypted channels) would be disabled from this setting to prevent users from screwing them up. It's not like we're fundamentally changing the nature of the DVR here.

As I said before, it's a niche feature for what's likely a declining niche, and Tivo isn't going to implement it, so the discussion is rather moot.

Obviously any new feature requires CSR support and code maintenance. That's true regardless of what the feature is. I fail to see how that argument applies more to this feature than it would to any other feature. Tivo is in the business of producing DVRs and DVR software. Implementing new features is their business. It's what they do.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:15 PM   #25
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Obviously any new feature requires CSR support and code maintenance. That's true regardless of what the feature is. I fail to see how that argument applies more to this feature than it would to any other feature. Tivo is in the business of producing DVRs and DVR software. Implementing new features is their business. It's what they do.
Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data. For instance, http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun...lineup_3752285 for my FiOS lineup is AWFUL and who knows where the other 90+% of the channels are? I tried using this data to tune w/temporarily watch and tune w/my TV when my TiVo HD's drive went belly up. I gave up pretty quickly.

When a channel changes. I'd suspect that people would have randomly missed recordings and those on the wrong channel.

The cost of the phone call to CSR could cost TiVo more than the monthly fee. I used to work in software and there was always the problem w/cheap software or hardware (say <$40 MSRP) and a single call to tech support blowing the entire profit for that unit of the product. It's wouldn't be sustainable to have this feature given the volume of calls TiVo could receive.

The random channel changes almost totally defeats the purpose of a TiVo, of just being able to set it (a season pass) and pretty much forget it.

There are people out there who think TiVo is "complicated" already. My parents who are horrible w/technology are one of them. They can barely rearrange their season passes via SPM. There are many more like them out there.

One my friends who is a programmer by trade and went to MIT (so she's no dummy) has asked me several times about her Series 2 TiVo and "inability" to use it on her cable provider because they are or recently went all digital. After looking up info about her provider, I've had to remind her 2x that she needs to use an IR blaster in conjunction with set top box or DTA from the cable co.

You expect Joe Average user who cheaped out by not renting a CableCARD to not overly burden TiVo w/support calls and not bellyache about not being able to find accurate, up to date and complete channel mappings? The media likes to sensationalize these things w/negative headlines and stories.

Last edited by cwerdna : 11-28-2010 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:58 AM   #26
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Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data. For instance, http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun...lineup_3752285 for my FiOS lineup is AWFUL and who knows where the other 90+% of the channels are? I tried using this data to tune w/temporarily watch and tune w/my TV when my TiVo HD's drive went belly up. I gave up pretty quickly.

When a channel changes. I'd suspect that people would have randomly missed recordings and those on the wrong channel.

The cost of the phone call to CSR could cost TiVo more than the monthly fee. I used to work in software and there was always the problem w/cheap software or hardware (say <$40 MSRP) and a single call to tech support blowing the entire profit for that unit of the product. It's wouldn't be sustainable to have this feature given the volume of calls TiVo could receive.

The random channel changes almost totally defeats the purpose of a TiVo, of just being able to set it (a season pass) and pretty much forget it.

There are people out there who think TiVo is "complicated" already. My parents who are horrible w/technology are one of them. They can barely rearrange their season passes via SPM. There are many more like them out there.

One my friends who is a programmer by trade and went to MIT (so she's no dummy) has asked me several times about her Series 2 TiVo and "inability" to use it on her cable provider because they are or recently went all digital. After looking up info about her provider, I've had to remind her 2x that she needs to use an IR blaster in conjunction with set top box or DTA from the cable co.

You expect Joe Average user who cheaped out by not renting a CableCARD to not overly burden TiVo w/support calls and not bellyache about not being able to find accurate, up to date and complete channel mappings? The media likes to sensationalize these things w/negative headlines and stories.
My point exactly on this issue.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:43 AM   #27
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Tivo's original wording was something like cable cards may be required for digital stations. That certainly implies under some circumstances a cable card isn't required for digital stations.

Tivo "fixed" it by changing the wording to state cable cards are required for digital stations.
OTA are also "Digital Stations" and do NOT require any cable cards. So OTA, no card; cable, requires card. So some circumstance do not require cards.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:23 PM   #28
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I meant from a technical standpoint.
hackers even tried to implement it and found they faced the hurdle of having to redo it completely as a hack every time the map needed a change. Different tech issues but they were still there.

Why you can not see this is about making changes to the core of the functionality - channel listings/guide data/scheduler is beyond me.

so like I said you can believe this was a simple thing - but it never was.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:23 PM   #29
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Letting people setup their channel maps manually can lead to nightmare of where to find this data.
We're only talking about four channels here (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX). Those four channels have obvious OTA counterparts in nearly every market. It wouldn't be 100% accurate as affiliates have some control over programming, but it would be sufficient for most users.

Anything beyond those four networks (and possibly PBS) will soon end up encrypted if it isn't already, so there's little point in a solution that goes beyond mapping OTA guide data to clear QAM channels.

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hackers even tried to implement it and found they faced the hurdle of having to redo it completely as a hack every time the map needed a change.
This makes very little sense. If it can be special-purposed, then a table-based general-purpose implementation can also be done.

Hacking is not the same as writing it in-house. Hackers have to maintain compatibility with Tivo data structures and unexpected future Tivo modifications. Tivo can engineer in support for whatever features they want.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #30
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We're only talking about four channels here (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX). Those four channels have obvious OTA counterparts in nearly every market. It wouldn't be 100% accurate as affiliates have some control over programming, but it would be sufficient for most users.
I think I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that there are only those four channels available if you use an antenna only? Or those four channels plus however many PBS channels? If so, I must be doing something wrong then. I've got 57 local channels according to the TiVo/Tribune Broadcast (Antenna) channel lineup for my area.

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Anything beyond those four networks (and possibly PBS) will soon end up encrypted if it isn't already, so there's little point in a solution that goes beyond mapping OTA guide data to clear QAM channels...
If the cable company encrypted any those 57 local channels, I would think that cable company would be in BIG trouble!
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