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Old 08-13-2011, 10:17 PM   #1
ohmark
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Rhapsody: Tivo Has Eliminated Us From Series 3 and 2

According to Rhapsody spokesman, Tivo has refused to update "firmware" for Series 3 and Series 2, rendering both permanently unusable for Rhapsody.

"As far as the series 2 and 3 devices, Tivo has chosen not to update the firmware for those devices, meaning Rhapsody will no longer be accessible on them. This was a call that Tivo made, not us, and yeah, it sucks."
http://forum.rhapsody.com/rhapsody/t...y_notification Edited to add that you have to click on "View 6 more comments" about 3 or 4 posts from the bottom.

As for Tivo, it has not said one word to its loyal customers as to this. Not one word!

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Old 08-13-2011, 11:28 PM   #2
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The quote you give is nowhere found in the link you provided AND there are responses from Tivo people so your 'not one word' complaint is plainly false.

/As a side note, who knew Rhapsody was still around?
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:41 PM   #3
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The quote you give is nowhere found in the link you provided AND there are responses from Tivo people so your 'not one word' complaint is plainly false.
/As a side note, who knew Rhapsody was still around?
Sorry you couldn't find the quote, but it's there.
Click on the link again. About 3 or 4 posts from the bottom, click on "View 6 more comments." There is the quote in all its gory detail. See?

And, just as I said in my post above, Tivo has said not one word about Rhapsody being permanently discontinued on Series 3 and 2. Obviously, there is one post from TivoStephen as to the problem in general. But even he stated that Tivo was working on the solution, not working on discontinuing Rhapsody.

Hopefully, somebody from Tivo will post that the Rhapsody rep was misinformed. [Edited to Add that, unfortunately, Tivo found it more in its corporate interest to eliminate Rhapsody on Tivo 2, Tivo 3, and Tivo HD, than to update its software to accomodate whatever software changes Rhapsody made. Tivo, for now, has continued Rhapsody support for the Premiere and only the Premiere.]

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Old 08-14-2011, 12:05 AM   #4
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According to Rhapsody spokesman, Tivo has refused to update firmware for Series 3 and Series 2, rendering both permanently unusable for Rhapsody.

"As far as the series 2 and 3 devices, Tivo has chosen not to update the firmware for those devices, meaning Rhapsody will no longer be accessible on them. This was a call that Tivo made, not us, and yeah, it sucks."
http://forum.rhapsody.com/rhapsody/t...y_notification

As for Tivo, it has not said one word to its loyal customers as to this. Not one word!
I would not be surprised by this. Development on those platforms is dead and has generally been so for a while. In reality Rhapsody has it backwards, they chose to change the way their service works and end the previous methods. I am sure Rhapsody could either develop a fix for the older Tivos or pay Tivo to do so, they choose not to. Rhapsody just wants something for free. It is a shame that they outright lied in the post laying the blame on Tivo. It is unfortunate for those who use the service.
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Old 08-14-2011, 01:06 AM   #5
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Based on some of the postings, it seems that either Rhapsody dropped the ball or the device makers just didn't care enough to make the necessary changes. I don't think Rhapsody has a very large subscriber base. Tivo can't even get the bare basics finished these days. I wouldn't expect them to support older Tivo models based on their history.

As unfortunate as this situation is for Rhapsody/S2/S3 owners, my suggestion is to find a different provider for your music. There is no shortage of them and plenty of ways to play music through your Tivo.

I have to agree with the other poster. Who even knew Rhapsody was still around? Normally, I would be critical of Tivo for an issue like this but I think they did the right thing here. Slowly killing Rhapsody is a good move.
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:16 AM   #6
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"Who even knew Rhapsody was still around?" As a Rhapsody user for the last 5-6 years, I knew...but your point is VERY well taken. Outside of a media blitz they had a month or 2 ago, none of the device manufacturers are mentioning Rhapsody like they mention Napster, Pandora, et al.

I've tried Napster and MOG and, to me, neither has as satisfying experience as Rhapsody. Yet Rhapsody appears to be losing market share...even to Pandora-like services that are but a subset of Napster/Rhapsody/Spotify/MOG-like services.

Rhapsody seems to putting the noose to its own neck.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:58 PM   #7
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The Rhapsody representative made a comment on that thread that if they did not make the change it would prevent Rhapsody from working on any home audio device. That sounds like it was a legal requirement they had to fulfull, possibly from thier split with Real Networks.

Regardless, this episode just reenforces my opinion of Tivo as a company with terrible communication skills and no regard for their retail customers. Buyer beware.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:33 PM   #8
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The Rhapsody representative made a comment on that thread that if they did not make the change it would prevent Rhapsody from working on any home audio device. That sounds like it was a legal requirement they had to fulfull, possibly from thier split with Real Networks.

Regardless, this episode just reenforces my opinion of Tivo as a company with terrible communication skills and no regard for their retail customers. Buyer beware.
+1 on all counts... it doesn't look there's much Rhapsody could have done, and it's just a business decision on Tivo's end. Frankly, Tivo has their hands full doing anything for Series 4 owners, let alone series 2/3. Not saying I like it, but that's the way it is.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:41 PM   #9
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I dumped Rhapsody years ago. They were overpriced, the app was badly bloated and completely unnecessary, and it was hard to manage and unnecessarily limited. It was a real dog turd of an app, and the service wasn't much better.

That there might be patent issues between them and Real is entirely possible, but that is no excuse for implementing yet another proprietary protocol. Proprietary protocols are almost always the result of corporate greed, and if such maneuvering on their part winds up bankrupting them, then it is no more than they deserve.

AS far as my music enjoyment is concerned, I either rip my CDs to .mp3 files or else purchase .mp3 files from on-line services and run Galleon to deliver to my TiVos.

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Old 08-15-2011, 02:53 PM   #10
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+1 on all counts... it doesn't look there's much Rhapsody could have done, and it's just a business decision on Tivo's end.
Bullcrap. What Rhapsody could have done, what they *SHOULD* have done, presuming they were forced into doing something, was to implement a standard, open source protocol.
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Old 08-15-2011, 03:32 PM   #11
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Bullcrap. What Rhapsody could have done, what they *SHOULD* have done, presuming they were forced into doing something, was to implement a standard, open source protocol.
What difference would an open source protocol make? I doubt Tivo would implement a new protocol on the S2/S3/HD even if there was source code freely available.

Rhapsody's licensing agreements with the music copyright holders probably require some sort of encrypted transfer or other specific implementation, like Netflix. It is hard to imagine it wouldn't, since Rhapsody gives much more complete access to an artist's work than the streaming radio services like Pandora.
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Old 08-15-2011, 03:37 PM   #12
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I dumped Rhapsody years ago. They were overpriced, the app was badly bloated and completely unnecessary, and it was hard to manage and unnecessarily limited. It was a real dog turd of an app, and the service wasn't much better.
The service is pretty unique, and except for Napster and recently Spotify, I don't know of any other that offers unlimited access to such a large library of music. It doesn't seem hard to manage to me, and I have found a lot of new music through it. I quickly gave up on Tivo as a client though, so maybe your experience was worse for that.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:47 PM   #13
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I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:57 PM   #14
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What difference would an open source protocol make? I doubt Tivo would implement a new protocol on the S2/S3/HD even if there was source code freely available.
First of all limiting the horizon to the interaction between a service like Rhapsody and any single platform like TiVo results in a narrow perspective. Such perspectives are rarely very productive, especially in the long run. Speaking WRT Tivo or any specific platform, however, open source protocols mean any developer can produce code that will interface the service with the hardware. Who cares if the hardware manufacturer implements anything, or not? Hardware manufacturers almost always produce lousy code.

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Rhapsody's licensing agreements with the music copyright holders probably require some sort of encrypted transfer
Because it is required to be encrypted and / or secure doesn't mean it can't be open source. Public key encryption, the strongest and most secure encryption ever developed and available to non-government entities is open source.

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or other specific implementation, like Netflix. It is hard to imagine it wouldn't, since Rhapsody gives much more complete access to an artist's work than the streaming radio services like Pandora.
Irrelevant. Making the content secure is in no way related to preventing 3rd party developers from producing applications. They just want to control licensing of the content *AND* the platforms used to access it along with the code employed by the platforms.

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Old 08-15-2011, 07:07 PM   #15
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The service is pretty unique
That it was. I haven't used it for years, and it is entirely possible it has changed much since then, but being unique is not in and of itself an advantage. Most of what it was designed to do was of no interext to me, and at $10 a month it was costing me a fair amount of money for nothing.

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and except for Napster and recently Spotify, I don't know of any other that offers unlimited access to such a large library of music.
It wasn't unlimited. I could not play it on my DVD players or in my car using a USB stick. It wouldn't work on the wireless media player I had, nor on my TiVo at the time. I don't even think there was a Linux version, at least not back then.

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It doesn't seem hard to manage to me, and I have found a lot of new music through it. I quickly gave up on Tivo as a client though, so maybe your experience was worse for that.
No, that was not any real part of my decision. Actually, it was, but only in the sense that I did have applications that worked well with my TiVos as well as every other device I had. There was no content of interest to me available through the service that I had not already purchased either from Rhapsody or later through Amazon, and Amazon presented much less of a hassle.
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Old 08-15-2011, 07:22 PM   #16
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Irrelevant. Making the content secure is in no way related to preventing 3rd party developers from producing applications. They just want to control licensing of the content *AND* the platforms used to access it along with the code employed by the platforms.
Well, we don't know what protocol Rhapsody is using. I don't anyway. Maybe it is an open source protocol. But I don't think it matters much to us, because I'm sure the intent of the copyright holders would be to prevent us from being able to decrypt the streams. They would want to enforce which devices could decrypt and which could not. Assuming it was an open source protocol and the decryption keys were baked into the device's software, how would that benefit us, the end users? We would still be dependant on Tivo to update thier software and unable to patch/proxy it ourselves.

As for Rhapsody, it fits my listening habits pretty well. I listen almost exclusively at home or at work where a streaming connection is available, and I am always listening to new artists and albums. Sometimes I will buy them if they become a favorite, but the streaming is enough 95% of the time.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:03 PM   #17
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Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.
Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3

Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:51 AM   #18
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I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.
I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their firmware updated? Without a soldering iron?

Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:56 AM   #19
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Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3

Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.
I think your statement is correct only if you state "elimination of a service for which at least one customer purchased TiVo hardware and lifetime subscription". I don't know whether TiVo or Rhapsody is at fault when it comes to Rhapsody not working after Rhapsody made changes to their service on models prior to the TiVo Premiere. I do know whose fault it is that you have paid for service you can no longer receive, your fault. I learned long ago to never purchase an expensive product for an intended use that is not the primary use and not guaranteed. I won't even reread the terms of service because I knew when I purchased my TiVoHD with lifetime that all of these additional services are at the mercy of the service provider and not within TiVo's control.

I don't care whether Rhapsody believes TiVo could have adapted to the new service requirements and points their finger at TiVo. It may be possible that TiVo will decide to spend the time and money necessary to get Rhapsody working again, assuming it is possible, and rescind the announcement of the end of the service but I doubt it.

Only the primary intended service and services provided directly by TiVo are within TiVo's control. I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did. If you do something like that again, be sure to read the terms of service and understand whether or not this ancillary purpose you want the product for is guaranteed to work for the life of the product being purchased.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:23 AM   #20
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There is actually very little functionality in a Tivo that is completely under the control of Tivo. The Tivo Desktop functionality is all I can think of right now.
The core DVR functions depend on the over-the-air format and/or cable cards. We saw the Series 1 abandoned when the over-the-air broadcasts transistioned to digital, even though supporting the digital set-top boxes would have been a trivial update for Tivo. I expect that if there are any changes or updates to cable card we will likewise see older Tivos lose support.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:25 AM   #21
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I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did.
I bought a Tivo for its primary functionality. I bought a Tivo over a Moxie primarily because Tivo supported Rhapsody which I had been already using with another home audio device for about 5 years. The Tivo replaced the other device for Rhapsody functionality.

So, now you have 2 people whose Tivo purchase was influenced by Rhapsody. I also purchased a Denon AV receiver over others because of Rhapsody functionality and now Denon refuses to support their older devices. Now I have no Rhapsody on my Denon and I will not be purchasing Denon products in the future.

So, I didn't buy either product for primary Rhapsody functionality but it certainly influenced my choices.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:40 AM   #22
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I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their firmware updated? Without a soldering iron?

Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?
What good would a firmware update be? All the firmware on the PROM chip does is basically boot the OS from the HDD. All the smarts are in the OS and application.
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:03 PM   #23
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I think your statement is correct only if you state "elimination of a service for which at least one customer purchased TiVo hardware and lifetime subscription". I don't know whether TiVo or Rhapsody is at fault when it comes to Rhapsody not working after Rhapsody made changes to their service on models prior to the TiVo Premiere. I do know whose fault it is that you have paid for service you can no longer receive, your fault. I learned long ago to never purchase an expensive product for an intended use that is not the primary use and not guaranteed. I won't even reread the terms of service because I knew when I purchased my TiVoHD with lifetime that all of these additional services are at the mercy of the service provider and not within TiVo's control.

I don't care whether Rhapsody believes TiVo could have adapted to the new service requirements and points their finger at TiVo. It may be possible that TiVo will decide to spend the time and money necessary to get Rhapsody working again, assuming it is possible, and rescind the announcement of the end of the service but I doubt it.

Only the primary intended service and services provided directly by TiVo are within TiVo's control. I couldn't have imagined anybody would have purchased a TiVo for Rhapsody before you made the claim and now I can't imagine anybody else did. If you do something like that again, be sure to read the terms of service and understand whether or not this ancillary purpose you want the product for is guaranteed to work for the life of the product being purchased.
Thanks for your response, and you make some good points. I would agree that few would buy a current Tivo, and buy lifetime service (or pay the monthly charge) only for access to Rhapsody (for an additional monthly fee). In my case, Tivo offered me $99 lifetime service for a Series 2 that I had no particular use for. My Tivo 2 was going to be honorably retired, but I decided to accept the offer solely because I could use the Tivo for Rhapsody for my home sound system. There are internet radios I could have used instead (Squeezebox, etc.), but using Tivo 2 for this had the advantage of a relatively large screen display for the service and the $100 fee was less than I would have paid for other hardware. Also, while I would guess that it's true that not many people purchased a Tivo and paid for monthly service exclusively to access Rhapsody, I would also guess that the ability to access Rhapsody played a role in the purchase decisions of some customers.

None of the above excuses Tivo's abysmal failure to communicate with its customers for over a month, during which time clicking on Rhapsody produced a message from Tivo that the app was undergoing "Scheduled Maintenance." And TivoJerry's use of the word "inconvenience" to describe the complete elimination of the service for Tivo 2 and Tivo 3/HD seems, well, inappropriate.

Oh, and I'm looking at a Vizio Blue Ray or smaller screen tv with VIA (Vizio internet apps), which include Rhapsody.

And my Tivo 2?; I'm thinking of using it to stream remotely on the internet with a Vulkano Flow.

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:55 PM   #24
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I know you guys can update the TiVo software, but are TiVos even capable of having their firmware updated? Without a soldering iron?

Do Rhapsody know even less about Tivos than I?
In this context, "firmware" is being broadly used to mean, "code that can be updated in the field". From the administrative viewpoint, of course, it is software, but traditionaly embedded consumer devices did not have "software", only "hardware" and "firmware". Essentially, the usage glosses over the distinction between storage on a hard drive and a PROM.
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:05 PM   #25
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I expect that if there are any changes or updates to cable card we will likewise see older Tivos lose support.
Perhaps, but that's a little different kettle of fish. CableCard support is central to the core design of the S3 TiVo and above, and it is mandated by law. Making any changes to the CableCard would require FCC approval and would affect a great deal more than just TiVo. On the flip side of the coin, if changes were allowed by the FCC, there's a good chance they would also require 3rd party vendors to provide some level of support for the upgrade.
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:22 PM   #26
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Inconvenient???? Are you serious? You have eliminated the sole reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 2, and a major reason I bought lifetime service for my Series 3

Tivo Jerry, I want you to know that over the course of Tivo's lifetime, I bought an original series Tivo, a Sony Tivo, a Series 2, an HD Tivo, and a Tivo Premiere. I am really upset over your company's total failure to communicate with its customers for the past month over this. And I'm stupified by your use of the word "inconvenient" to describe a corporate decision that resulted in complete elimination of a service for which at least some of your customers purchased Tivo hardware and Tivo lifetime subscriptions.
You have to understand that Tivo stopped caring about its customers LONG ago. The only customers Tivo wants to have are cable/satellite companies but they have been able to get get very little off the ground.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:38 PM   #27
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Thanks for your response, and you make some good points. I would agree that few would buy a current Tivo, and buy lifetime service (or pay the monthly charge) only for access to Rhapsody (for an additional monthly fee). In my case, Tivo offered me $99 lifetime service for a Series 2 that I had no particular use for. My Tivo 2 was going to be honorably retired, but I decided to accept the offer solely because I could use the Tivo for Rhapsody for my home sound system. There are internet radios I could have used instead (Squeezebox, etc.), but using Tivo 2 for this had the advantage of a relatively large screen display for the service and the $100 fee was less than I would have paid for other hardware. Also, while I would guess that it's true that not many people purchased a Tivo and paid for monthly service exclusively to access Rhapsody, I would also guess that the ability to access Rhapsody played a role in the purchase decisions of some customers.

None of the above excuses Tivo's abysmal failure to commuicate with its customers for over a month, during which time clicking on Rhapsody produced a message from Tivo that the app was undergoing "Scheduled Maintenance." And TivoJerry's use of the word "inconvenience" to describe the complete elimination of the service for Tivo 2 and Tivo 3/HD seems, well, inappropriate.

Oh, and I'm looking at a Vizio Blue Ray or smaller screen tv with VIA (Vizio internet apps), which include Rhapsody.

And my Tivo 2?; I'm thinking of using it to stream remotely on the internet with a Vulkano Flow.
I can see risking $99, I had incorrectly assumed a normal lifetime fee which is all I have ever purchased at $300. Well, I would say you took a chance and got some use but it probably didn't work out very well. I just had a coupon for half off any Logitech product, except Google TV, and looked at the Squeezebox, it looks like a good product but I have little interest in internet radio streaming and instead purchased a Harmony remote. I do use Pandora a little and have several boxes that handle that and have the Spotify free service on this laptop but don't use it much. I have never tried Rhapsody.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:07 PM   #28
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What good would a firmware update be?...
I have no idea, but that's what Rhapsody said was needed, which makes me question if they know what they're talking about.

Can TiVo even send down a software update that flashes the firmware?

If it can, is that a comforting thought or a scary one?

If you were TiVo, would you want to flash TiVo sets in the non-controlled environment of the customer's home?

Since Tivo doesn't even appear to have the programming resources to finish the UI on the Premiere, I doubt they're in a position to deal with Rhapsody having decided to break things, and since things were working until Rhapsody made a change, it's a bit disingenuous of Rhapsody to try to blame TiVo.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:26 PM   #29
mattack
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: sunnyvale
Posts: 17,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoJerry View Post
I can confirm that an update is rolling out to Series4 boxes which will get Rhapsody up and running again. Unfortunately, due to recent technical limitations with the Rhapsody application Series3 and Series2 users will no longer have access to Rhapsody from their TiVo DVR. We apologize for the inconvenience.
WHY AM I STILL GETTING ADS FOR Rhapsody on my Tivo HD then? I was even able to start signing up.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:46 PM   #30
bklockhart
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 15
For what it's worth, Rhapsody has been helpful. I had just signed up for a 2-week trial membership to try it out on my home system only to discover it was out of service. After explaining my complaint, they issued me 3 months free service which I happily accepted. Don't hesitate to contact them if you have a similar complaint.
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