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Old 04-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #151
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The attempt on Bran was made after the King's party left for King's landing, but before it got there.
So Jaime or Cersei ask someone to kill Bronn (Varys or Littlefinger could still be asked via r-mail). That someone is either told by Jaime or Cersei to use this specific dagger or the person who is ordering the hit decides to use it as a "get you" to follow the orders but implicate Littlefinger or Tyrion.

IOW: anyone could have done it for any reason. The dagger may have been stolen, or not. The dagger may have been used on purpose by the Lannisters or the Killer, for a multitude of reasons (including "how stupid would I be to use my own dagger for the murder" defense).

We know NOTHING
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:00 AM   #152
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Bran is the Stark boy who was pushed from the tower in Winterfell.

Bronn is the sellsword who works for Tyrion.

Brienne is the Maid of Tarth.

At this rate we'll run out of B names and we'll soon find ourselves with characters named Bing, Bang, and Bong.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:06 AM   #153
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What we do know for sure:

The dagger was distinctive and unique. Easy to trace to it's owner.
Littlefinger was clearly the owner at one point.
Littlefinger is one of the best at lying to your face.

Now, can anybody at all think of any reason to use a distinctive dagger in this attack? An attack planned so that nobody would be there and Bran would be defenseless becaus Winterfell was on fire, which required at least two people (one to set the fires, and yet get away so that they are never found, and the assassin who did not have time to set the fires AND get to Brans bedroom).

Anybody capable of setting up that plan would have used a plain nondescript weapon. The only reason to use a distinctive weapon is to cast suspicion on someone.

At this point we have had that suspicion cast on both Littlefinger and Tyrion. But the deeper question is why? Who would benefit from either of those having suspicion cast upon either of them?
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:10 AM   #154
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I love reading the books now after seeing the first season. Stuff makes so much more sense to me. Also I love seeing all the characters in my head as I read.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:23 AM   #155
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After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.
Like I said, I skimmed the entire season 1 yesterday, watching all of Tyrion's parts, and I couldn't find it said anywhere. I was even deperate enough to try and find it episodes 9/10 when Tyrion is talking to Tywin. The only episode I did NOT watch was episode 1, which takes place before Bran is even hurt. So unless it was episode 1 and the context had nothing to do with the dagger, or unless I accidentally skipped a Tyrion scene when skimming (not likely, but possible), Tyrion never said those words.

Yet those words seemed so familiar. So now I'm wondering if it was in a Ned/Jamie scene, and it was Jamie saying his brother would never bet against him.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:25 AM   #156
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So have we all decided that Lord Kronos is the 8th kingdom?
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:35 AM   #157
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So Jaime or Cersei ask someone to kill Bronn (Varys or Littlefinger could still be asked via r-mail). That someone is either told by Jaime or Cersei to use this specific dagger or the person who is ordering the hit decides to use it as a "get you" to follow the orders but implicate Littlefinger or Tyrion.

IOW: anyone could have done it for any reason. The dagger may have been stolen, or not. The dagger may have been used on purpose by the Lannisters or the Killer, for a multitude of reasons (including "how stupid would I be to use my own dagger for the murder" defense).

We know NOTHING
Considering that the assassination plan was to quietly slice up the sleeping kid Stark while everyone was dealing with the fire, what difference did it make what dagger was used? He was supposed to leave it behind to implicate Tyrion/Littlefinger?

BTW, I like how Cersie/Jamie say, "So you say..." about the killing to Lady Stark. Not that she was cut up by that very dagger while defending herself, not to mention that the Starks have the assassin's de-throated body.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:42 AM   #158
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Considering that the assassination plan was to quietly slice up the sleeping kid Stark while everyone was dealing with the fire, what difference did it make what dagger was used? He was supposed to leave it behind to implicate Tyrion/Littlefinger?

BTW, I like how Cersie/Jamie say, "So you say..." about the killing to Lady Stark. Not that she was cut up by that very dagger while defending herself, not to mention that the Starks have the assassin's de-throated body.
I would assume the dagger was to be left behind. As you say, why else would it be used?
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:49 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Ereth
What we do know for sure:

The dagger was distinctive and unique. Easy to trace to it's owner.
Littlefinger was clearly the owner at one point.
Littlefinger is one of the best at lying to your face.
Correction: Littlefinger says he was the owner at one point.

As you say, he is the best at lying.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:57 AM   #160
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So have we all decided that Lord Kronos is the 8th kingdom?
Oh, come on man. Spoiler tags
Spoiler:
You aren't supposed to know about me yet. I don't show up until book 7

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Old 04-18-2012, 12:35 PM   #161
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lol
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:48 PM   #162
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Oh, come on man. Spoiler tags
Spoiler:
You aren't supposed to know about me yet. I don't show up until book 7
Hah. When someone up thread mentioned you (Lord Kronos), it took me a minute to figure out who he was talking about.

I was thinking,"who the hell is he calling Lord Kronos?!?"


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Old 04-18-2012, 03:02 PM   #163
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I was thinking,"who the hell is he calling Lord Kronos?!?"
Must be an actor on the show who's known for playing Lord Kronos in some other show I haven't seen...
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:21 PM   #164
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Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?
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If my memory serves, and most of this is explained better in the book and is hard to ascertain from the show, Cat is trying to lay low and remain hidden so no one knows her whereabouts as she returns to Winterfell. Her head could be worth a lot, especially to the Lannisters. So her first instinct is to hide and hope Tyrion will not see her or recognize her. In the book, and this isn't really a spoiler, just more of an explanation, she runs through her head all of the people at the inn and recognizes that many are either vassals to her father in Riverrun or somehow vassals or bound to Winterfell. So when she recognizes that Tyrion is going to see her, she realizes that her best bet is to rally out all the men who rightfully should stand behind her and arrest Tyrion based on the claims that he tried to murder her son. That's her best escape route to get the numbers on her side quickly. Bronn, the sellsword also happens to be there and says he will help because he knows there's coin in it.

Remember that she was in King's Landing secretly and no one save the Starks and Littlefinger knew she was there, or why.
I loved this scene. Because of this discussion I went and watched that scene again. My problem... it led me to re-watch about 4 eps of season one again.

My plan was today was to catch up on True Blood but G.o.T. got me sucked in.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:25 PM   #165
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I would assume the dagger was to be left behind. As you say, why else would it be used?
Because it was the dagger the guy found when he needed to steal one to use?

Nah, way to simple for this show.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:24 PM   #166
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Correction: Littlefinger says he was the owner at one point.

As you say, he is the best at lying.
Good point. So the possibilities are:

1 - Littlefinger DID own the blade
2 - Littlefinger did NOT own the blade.

Why would he claim ownership if he never owned it? The only thing he does with that claim is to throw suspicion on Tyrion.

Which leads us back to... why would he want to throw suspicion on Tyrion? If he didn't have it at all, or he lied about how he lost it, either way he's throwing suspicion on Tyrion. And, at that point, Tyrion is almost a non-entity. A little man who spends his time with hookers and booze (he'd fit in here!) and reads a lot but has shown no interest in politics (this clearly changes).

Perhaps he wanted to set the Starks against the Lannisters. Tywin, Jamie, Cersei, all too dangerous to call out. Tyrion, though... who would rise to his defense? His own sister and father despise him.

There's always the possibility he's telling the truth, but when it comes to Petyr, I find that possibility unlikely, no matter what he's saying.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:05 PM   #167
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Haven't you read the books, Ereth?
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #168
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Haven't you read the books, Ereth?
I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:21 PM   #169
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Haven't you read the books, Ereth?
Yes, but on this particular topic I've completely forgotten the payoff. I don't remember where it leads. There's a LOT of book, after all. I re-read the whole thing when the last book came out, but that was a while ago. I no longer have the recall I once had.

But if you'd prefer, I'll stop participating. I don't mean to cause problems. I have been very careful to avoid conversations where I did know the answer from the books, but I admit I am not perfect and could have made a mistake without realizing it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:50 PM   #170
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I've not noticed any issues. I just thought it odd that you were posing questions if you've read the books.

I'll be honest, I don't remember exactly either but I think I have an idea.

Carry on.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:47 PM   #171
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The answer to the dagger mystery in the books kind of slipped by quietly, and wasn't terribly satisfying. If they decide to go a different route on the show, that could be a positive thing...
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:15 AM   #172
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Not a problem, I was just confused. I couldn't tell if you were just trying to feign ignorance, or if it was genuine.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:54 AM   #173
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Not a problem, I was just confused. I couldn't tell if you were just trying to feign ignorance, or if it was genuine.
LOL...I know you didn't mean it that way, but I need to remember to use that when I want to insult someone.

I'm evaluating everything you've said and I can't decide if you're stupid or just pretending to be
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:06 AM   #174
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I'm sure he just can't appreciate what a GENIUS you are!
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #175
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LOL...I know you didn't mean it that way, but I need to remember to use that when I want to insult someone.

I'm evaluating everything you've said and I can't decide if you're stupid or just pretending to be
A common mistake is to equate ignorance with stupidity. They are not the same. For instance, I'm ignorant of your real name. That doesn't make me stupid, it just means there is knowledge I do not have. There is a lot of knowledge I do not have. In fact, given how much there is to know in the world, I would suggest that the amount of things any one individual knows is dwarfed by the amount of things that individual does not know.

His point is well taken. Did I really not know, or was I pretending not to know so I could lead the discussion down a path where "we" worked it out together?

In this case, I'd legitimately forgotten. In fact, now that I've been reminded, I realize my thinking was leading me in the wrong direction. But, because I do now know, I can't comment on that direction any more.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:18 AM   #176
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A common mistake is to equate ignorance with stupidity. They are not the same. For instance, I'm ignorant of your real name. That doesn't make me stupid, it just means there is knowledge I do not have. There is a lot of knowledge I do not have. In fact, given how much there is to know in the world, I would suggest that the amount of things any one individual knows is dwarfed by the amount of things that individual does not know.

His point is well taken. Did I really not know, or was I pretending not to know so I could lead the discussion down a path where "we" worked it out together?

In this case, I'd legitimately forgotten. In fact, now that I've been reminded, I realize my thinking was leading me in the wrong direction. But, because I do now know, I can't comment on that direction any more.
I was just taking a well-intentioned post and trying to make it funny...stupid just made it funnier, I thought...just kidding...I knew he wasn't insulting you and I wasn't trying to do that, either.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:34 AM   #177
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I was just taking a well-intentioned post and trying to make it funny...stupid just made it funnier, I thought...just kidding...I knew he wasn't insulting you and I wasn't trying to do that, either.
And your post was funny. That just turns out to be one of my hot buttons. I have people get upset all the time because they think I mean stupid when I simply mean "lack of knowledge".

Well, ok, not "all the time", but when it does happen it turns into major drama.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #178
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To be fair, however, while technically it can be used in a neutral way, "ignorant" is generally considered a pretty insulting word.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #179
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But I know Ereth well enough that I knew I could make that statement and there would be no offense.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:13 AM   #180
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But Ereth was confessing that he uses "ignorant" in a neutral manner and then goes into lecture mode when people take it the "wrong" way (which is in fact the way the word is almost always used).

It's a kind of fake outrage that presses MY buttons.
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