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Old 04-17-2012, 12:43 PM   #121
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Or if they'd have just been able to keep their crap together. I still find it a bit hard to believe these two have been secretly having sex for years and they are still sooooo hot for each other they have to sneak away having sex in someone else's house. Ugh. That just bugs.
I think the sheer geographical and chronological scale of this story might be escaping you. Traveling from King's Landing to Winterfell takes weeks, months (c. 1500 miles). There are a lot of pretty substantial time-jumps that get glossed over in the show (and in the books, for that matter; there's no seventy pages of "and the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next..."). I doubt you could expect two lovers who are traveling together for the better part of a year to keep it in their pants until they get home...
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:49 PM   #122
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About the dagger:

The impression I got was that Jaime lost that battle on purpose (to someone who would benefit from winning, get promoted, and be placed in a spot where he can help the Lannisters). Tyrion, knowing of the plot, bet against Jaime and won the dagger; much to Littlefinger's dismay.

Now, again, Littlefinger may have been lying about the story. But it's certainly plausible.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:58 PM   #123
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But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.
Thank-you audioscience, that was exactly the analogy I was trying to draw.

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Old 04-17-2012, 01:14 PM   #124
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But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.
I think you're WAY overthinking it. A circumstantial chain of events doesn't mean A caused B.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:18 PM   #125
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I think you're WAY overthinking it. A circumstantial chain of events doesn't mean A caused B.
I think the idea being brought forth is the mythical portent of the stag and the wolf.

But I don't understand your point at all, even if we're just talking about the facts. If GOT is anything, it's that each person's actions cause ripples and reactions by many people. The intertwining of all these actions and reactions (cause and effect) is exactly what the show is about. So I really don't understand your denial.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:48 PM   #126
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About the dagger:

The impression I got was that Jaime lost that battle on purpose (to someone who would benefit from winning, get promoted, and be placed in a spot where he can help the Lannisters). Tyrion, knowing of the plot, bet against Jaime and won the dagger; much to Littlefinger's dismay.

Now, again, Littlefinger may have been lying about the story. But it's certainly plausible.
Do you know what gave you that impression? I'm not saying you are wrong, but just wondering. If that's what really happened, that would explain a lot. If the knife really were stolen from him and he had no idea where it went, then lying and saying "I'd never bet against my brother" would actually be more believable than the truth of "honestly, someone stole it, I swear".

And despite his knack for deception, I'm not sure I'm convinced why Littlefinger would have been involved in any way. Hell, I don't think he could be. Wasn't the attack on Bran done before everyone had arrived in Kings Landing? In order for Littlefinger to be involved, they would have had to get word all the way from Winterfell to Kings Landing, then get the knife all the way from King's Landing to Winterfell, all in a relatively short period of time. And that wouldn't even explain why Littlefinger would have been involved in the first place. And if he wasn't involved, that would be a hell of a convoluted plot to send someone all the way down there to steal his knife and frame him.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:55 PM   #127
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Do you know what gave you that impression? I'm not saying you are wrong, but just wondering. If that's what really happened, that would explain a lot. If the knife really were stolen from him and he had no idea where it went, then lying and saying "I'd never bet against my brother" would actually be more believable than the truth of "honestly, someone stole it, I swear".

And despite his knack for deception, I'm not sure I'm convinced why Littlefinger would have been involved in any way. Hell, I don't think he could be. Wasn't the attack on Bran done before everyone had arrived in Kings Landing? In order for Littlefinger to be involved, they would have had to get word all the way from Winterfell to Kings Landing, then get the knife all the way from King's Landing to Winterfell, all in a relatively short period of time. And that wouldn't even explain why Littlefinger would have been involved in the first place. And if he wasn't involved, that would be a hell of a convoluted plot to send someone all the way down there to steal his knife and frame him.
The way Littlefinger told the story (imagine that, the one time Jaime loses a battle, and it's to someone who was terrible, AND his brother just happened to bet against him!). Also, I think the guy who beat Jaime is the one who became a knight and was killed by the Mountain (Hound's brother). Payment (getting knighted and getting killed to be silenced!) for killing Jon Arryn.

Don't get me wrong, I could be so wrong here that it's not even funny.

This also doesn't mean that the dagger could not be legitimately stolen from Tyrion by someone and Tyrion not knowing anything about it. As he said (paraphrasing) "what kind of a fool would give the assassin his own dagger to use for a murder?".
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:19 PM   #128
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I think the sheer geographical and chronological scale of this story might be escaping you. Traveling from King's Landing to Winterfell takes weeks, months (c. 1500 miles). There are a lot of pretty substantial time-jumps that get glossed over in the show (and in the books, for that matter; there's no seventy pages of "and the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next day, they went another 30 miles. And the next..."). I doubt you could expect two lovers who are traveling together for the better part of a year to keep it in their pants until they get home...
Oh well yes, I suppose I haven't thought enough about the time it takes to travel in this world. That does put a bit of a different spin on my thoughts then.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:10 PM   #129
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My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion.
Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:23 PM   #130
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Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.
This post made my day.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:03 PM   #131
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Ok, as if this wasn't confusing enough, I'm trying to figure out which house Lord Kronos belongs to.--until I figured it out a few posts down.
Ha!
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:40 PM   #132
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Oh well yes, I suppose I haven't thought enough about the time it takes to travel in this world. That does put a bit of a different spin on my thoughts then.
I put all distances in perspective relative to king Robert's trip to Winterfell. IIRC, that took 1 month. I figure that's the slowest you can make the trip (given the large size of his caravan); which still makes it a formidable trip.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:51 PM   #133
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I put all distances in perspective relative to king Robert's trip to Winterfell. IIRC, that took 1 month. I figure that's the slowest you can make the trip (given the large size of his caravan); which still makes it a formidable trip.
That's 50 miles per day, which is a pretty spectacular sustained rate in pre-industrial times...
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:52 PM   #134
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I think it's safe to say that when they reduce thousands of pages of book into a few hours of TV, they don't leave something in unless it's going to be significant...
Speaking of book:
Spoiler:

Come on. It barely leads anywhere in 4 books. It's not until #5 that we really get any payoff.

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Old 04-17-2012, 06:15 PM   #135
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I'm pretty sure everything in this write-up is part of the show at this point. IOW, I don't think I've included any book-based spoilers.

The Kings of the War of Five Kings:

8:45 at phoenix office.
I don't recall the phoenix office being part of the show.

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The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.
Correction: The attack on Bran's life was done with a dagger that Littlefinger says Tyrion won from Littlefinger.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:22 PM   #136
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Correction: The attack on Bran's life was done with a dagger that Littlefinger says Tyrion won from Littlefinger.
giggle...your smeek is showing!
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #137
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I don't recall the phoenix office being part of the show.
Haha! Some other notes got pasted in with that!
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:54 PM   #138
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:03 PM   #139
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:12 PM   #140
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The way Littlefinger told the story (imagine that, the one time Jaime loses a battle, and it's to someone who was terrible, AND his brother just happened to bet against him!).
I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."

You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.


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Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet against his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."
Likewise, I just skimmed the entire season and watched every Tyrion dialog. I couldn't find anywhere that he said he never bet against his brother. The phrase seems familiar but I didn't find it anywhere. Was it perhaps someone else saying they wouldn't bet again Jamie? Do you know when this supposed conversation with Tyrion took place ? I just can't find a trace of it. The only conversation with Cat was [paraphrased] "I'm not a murderer", "neither am I", "your knife was.....", "what kind of idiot arms an assassin with his own blade". Interesting that he cut her off, already knowing what she was going to say. Yet there was no previous discussion about this, at least not in the show.

Did either of you perhaps read the book, and this was something from there and not the show?
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #141
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Did either of you perhaps read the book, and this was something from there and not the show?
I can't recall whether the line was spoken in the show but it does appear in the last lines in the fourth Tyrion chapter in the first book. This is right after they have survived the attack on the way to the Vale. I may go back and have a look on HBO On Demand.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:23 PM   #142
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I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."

You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.
But in order to have lost the bet, Tyrion would have had to have bet against Jamie. And he'd never do that. Heck, why would anybody? Jamie, at that point, is well renowned as the best fighter in the Kingdom.

The scene in question is after Catelyn has captured Tyrion and they are on their way to the Vale. They are attacked. After the fighting is over.

I can't cut/paste from the TV show, so the below, spoilered in case it offends, is the appropriate paragraph from the book:

Spoiler:
“As I was saying before we were so rudely interrupted,” Tyrion began, “there is a serious flaw in Littlefinger’s fable. Whatever you may believe of me, Lady Stark, I promise you this—I never bet against my family.”

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Old 04-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #143
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I can't cut/paste from the TV show, so the below, spoilered in case it offends, is the appropriate paragraph from the book:

Spoiler:
“As I was saying before we were so rudely interrupted,” Tyrion began, “there is a serious flaw in Littlefinger’s fable. Whatever you may believe of me, Lady Stark, I promise you this—I never bet against my family.”
Ok, if that's what the book says thats fine. It just wasn't said in the show. I've got the bluray in front of me. The summary of the scene is:

Cat says remove his hood
They talk about supposedly "riding to winterfell", and everyone looking for Tyrion in wrong place
Tyrion asks to be untied...where will he go with hill tribes & shadowcats
shadowcats are the least of his worries
Discuss eastern road to the vale
Talk about Cat's sister
The "kill me now", "I'm not murderer" words I mentioned earlier where Tyrion says he'd be stupid to give the assassin his own blade.
Other guy says gag him, Tyrion says "why am I starting to make sense"
The attack happens
Asks Cat to "untie me"
bashes guy to death with shield
Talk about need lady after Tyrions first kill..."I'm willing if she is"
end scene
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:02 PM   #144
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The fun part is that I can't read any Tyrion lines from the book now without hearing them in Peter Dinklage's voice and delivery. Which makes me think I saw them in the show.

He just owns that part so much.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:50 PM   #145
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I just rewatched that clip, and he didn't say it like that at all. He said "I bet on Ser Jamie in the jousting, as any sane man would. When the knight of the Flowers unseated him, I lost this dagger" to "Tyrion Lannister, the Imp."

You might read into the "as any sane man would" part, but he doesn't seem to be suggesting anything.




Likewise, I just skimmed the entire season and watched every Tyrion dialog. I couldn't find anywhere that he said he never bet against his brother. The phrase seems familiar but I didn't find it anywhere. Was it perhaps someone else saying they wouldn't bet again Jamie? Do you know when this supposed conversation with Tyrion took place ? I just can't find a trace of it. The only conversation with Cat was [paraphrased] "I'm not a murderer", "neither am I", "your knife was.....", "what kind of idiot arms an assassin with his own blade". Interesting that he cut her off, already knowing what she was going to say. Yet there was no previous discussion about this, at least not in the show.

Did either of you perhaps read the book, and this was something from there and not the show?
It is in the show, in the episode where she takes him to the Eyrie. It is a discussion they have on the road.

And I misquoted, What he actually said was, "I never bet against my family."
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:43 AM   #146
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The fun part is that I can't read any Tyrion lines from the book now without hearing them in Peter Dinklage's voice and delivery. Which makes me think I saw them in the show.

He just owns that part so much.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:05 AM   #147
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It is in the show, in the episode where she takes him to the Eyrie. It is a discussion they have on the road.

And I misquoted, What he actually said was, "I never bet against my family."

Sorry, but it's not in the episode. End of episode 4, he's taken into custody. Episode 5, the first time we see Tyrion, it is for the discussion which I outlined above. And discussion about betting against Jamie or his family never happens. The next time we see Tyrion they are meeting the Knights of the Vale just outside the Eyrie. Only thing Tyrion says is about how the Eyrie is impregnable.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:18 AM   #148
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Sorry, but it's not in the episode. End of episode 4, he's taken into custody. Episode 5, the first time we see Tyrion, it is for the discussion which I outlined above. And discussion about betting against Jamie or his family never happens. The next time we see Tyrion they are meeting the Knights of the Vale just outside the Eyrie. Only thing Tyrion says is about how the Eyrie is impregnable.
Well, I have been searching with Google for the past hour and I cannot find a transcript or a quote from the TV series stating as much. It occured to me he may have said it to Bronn after his departure from the Eyrie but no luck there either. I have read through the first two books and am working on the third, I was certain that quote was from the TV series. If they left it out I think that is crazy as the quote lends some credit to Tyrion's innocence.

After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:40 AM   #149
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Well, I have been searching with Google for the past hour and I cannot find a transcript or a quote from the TV series stating as much. It occured to me he may have said it to Bronn after his departure from the Eyrie but no luck there either. I have read through the first two books and am working on the third, I was certain that quote was from the TV series. If they left it out I think that is crazy as the quote lends some credit to Tyrion's innocence.

After I leave work I may go home and watch the episodes in question to verify what I remember, but I was sure those words came from Dinklage's mouth.
Even if he said it, it would depend on the context and it may have no meaning regarding the dagger.

I think it's safe to say we have no clue.

When was the attempt on Bronn's life? had Ned made it to King's Landing by then? (which would give the dagger time to make it up there and would widen the net of potential murderers considerably).
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:49 AM   #150
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Even if he said it, it would depend on the context and it may have no meaning regarding the dagger.

I think it's safe to say we have no clue.

When was the attempt on Bronn's life? had Ned made it to King's Landing by then? (which would give the dagger time to make it up there and would widen the net of potential murderers considerably).
The attempt on Bran was made after the King's party left for King's landing, but before it got there.
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