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Old 04-17-2012, 07:35 AM   #91
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...calls himself The Iron Kong...
Because he's a hard-headed big ape..?
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:47 AM   #92
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I think George R R Martin gives every character a moment, a moment where they make a decision upon which the rest of their lives hangs.

That moment right there, was Theon choosing his path, for good or for ill. He put his hand on the rudder and changed course, and now he has to wait and see how that new course plays out.
I agree and with that knowledge I'm saddened. I can't imagine the betrayal Robb will feel over this. He doesn't deserve it. He's treated Theon as a brother. Theon's father, however, has never given two ****s about his son and continues to give barely that. I just can't see why he would do it. Blood may be thicker than water but there's a point when you have to look at how blood has treated you compared to others.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:17 AM   #93
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I agree and with that knowledge I'm saddened. I can't imagine the betrayal Robb will feel over this. He doesn't deserve it. He's treated Theon as a brother. Theon's father, however, has never given two ****s about his son and continues to give barely that. I just can't see why he would do it. Blood may be thicker than water but there's a point when you have to look at how blood has treated you compared to others.
It's the only decision he can make. He is a Greyjoy. He never forgot that (and the Starks never let him forget it). If he betrays his father and sister for Robb, who is he? what does he become? He can never be Lord or King. He would become nothing. Given his vanity and sense of entitlement (and even without that), he really had no choice.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:27 AM   #94
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It's the only decision he can make. He is a Greyjoy. He never forgot that (and the Starks never let him forget it). If he betrays his father and sister for Robb, who is he? what does he become? He can never be Lord or King. He would become nothing. Given his vanity and sense of entitlement (and even without that), he really had no choice.
Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:32 AM   #95
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Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.
Well, they both assumed Daddy Greyjoy would be a reasonable man. Cat knew better and tried to tell Robb as much.

btw, 2 nights in a row with GOT dreams/nightmares for me. All center on Arya and what is going happen to her now. The suspense is driving me insane!
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:35 AM   #96
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Then they were both fools to believe Theon would be able to talk Balon into teaming up. Either way it seems that Robb's once brother/ally is about to be his enemy in yet another branch of his war.
oh, and I would say Theon is Robb's enemy for as long as Balon is alive.

Well, and maybe Yara as well. She has commanded the men and they would probably follow her (until Theon has proven himself). One thing Theon has going for him is how chauvinistic that world is (it's good to be a man!).
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:17 AM   #97
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oh, and I would say Theon is Robb's enemy for as long as Balon is alive.

Well, and maybe Yara as well. She has commanded the men and they would probably follow her (until Theon has proven himself). One thing Theon has going for him is how chauvinistic that world is (it's good to be a man!).
Well then I will hope for Balon to die shortly.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:30 AM   #98
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Let us not forget that Theon has always felt a bit of an outsider. Remember when he saved Bran by shooting the brigand with an arrow? What was Robb's response? "Thank you?". No, he immediately started yelling at Theon about how dangerous it was.

Much like Jon Snow, he was constantly reminded that he's not a Stark. It's interesting to compare the two and see how differently they handle that.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:35 AM   #99
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Let us not forget that Theon has always felt a bit of an outsider. Remember when he saved Bran by shooting the brigand with an arrow? What was Robb's response? "Thank you?". No, he immediately started yelling at Theon about how dangerous it was.

Much like Jon Snow, he was constantly reminded that he's not a Stark. It's interesting to compare the two and see how differently they handle that.
YES! Almost the entire first season, they were as mean to him as they were to Jon Snow. Then it became clear that they were just brothers teasing, hurting, each other as brothers will often do. Without the meanness and venom of the Lannisters, though. Those scars are deep and we can see how hurt Jon has always been. Now we are seeing that Theon has the same demons.

I don't question the love that Robb and Theon have for each other. But I saw no other choice possible for Theon and I leave the door open for him to make peace (unless he crosses a threshold later that cannot be uncrossed).

It's all so COMPLICATED!
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #100
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...btw, 2 nights in a row with GOT dreams/nightmares for me. All center on Arya and what is going happen to her now. The suspense is driving me insane!
Not a spoiler because I dunno a thing: Arya's direwolf is still out there. Look for Arya and Gendry to have a rescuer.

Can we see that the Starks can use their direwolves like the Targarians use their dragons?

I just remembered that Ned Stark sorta started it with the Lannisters when he issued the summon for Tywin Lannister from the throne.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:36 AM   #101
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Not a spoiler because I dunno a thing: Arya's direwolf is still out there. Look for Arya and Gendry to have a rescuer.
I was assuming her wolf would have to show up sooner or later. I wish she spoke of him though to not only remind viewers but to show how deeply connected they are and how much she misses her wolfie.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:00 AM   #102
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I was assuming her wolf would have to show up sooner or later. I wish she spoke of him though to not only remind viewers but to show how deeply connected they are and how much she misses her wolfie.
FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:01 AM   #103
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I just remembered that Ned Stark sorta started it with the Lannisters when he issued the summon for Tywin Lannister from the throne.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Ned did that because The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clagain, was it?) had gone on ransacking towns in Cat's homelands. That was in retaliation for Cat seizing Tyrion, which was in turn for pushing Bran out the window (she had the wrong guy, but the right family).


Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?

About this week's episode, do we have any idea where Arya and the other were at in their journey? Where were they located, and what was that building that they were staying in?
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:03 AM   #104
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FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.
Ah, that I did not know.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:06 AM   #105
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Not sure I'd agree with that. Ned did that because The Mountain (Ser Gregor Clagain, was it?) had gone on ransacking towns in Cat's homelands. That was in retaliation for Cat seizing Tyrion, which was in turn for pushing Bran out the window (she had the wrong guy, but the right family).
Right. It's Jamie who started it.

Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:22 AM   #106
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Right. It's Jamie who started it.

Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?
Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:27 AM   #107
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Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.
The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:29 AM   #108
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Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.
Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:33 AM   #109
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Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.
And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:34 AM   #110
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FYI - Her wolf is a girl, Nymeria. The wolves are gender-tied to their Stark kids.
Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:34 AM   #111
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The attack on Brans life was done with a dagger that Tyrion has won from Littlefinger. So the last we knew of that knife it belonged to Tyrion. What I don't recall is if Tyrion gave an explanation for that. I'm thinking he said it was stolen from him, but not sure if my memory is correct. If so, you could theorize that Jamie stole Tyrion's knife and gave it to Bran's assassin.
Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet against his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."

So Tyrion claims never to have owned the dagger. Littlefinger says it was his at first and that Tyrion won it from him. Take from that what you will, but I don't see a path in there where it was Tyrion's dagger and Jamie took it from him. It was either (A) Tyrion's and he is lying, and was somehow involved in Bran's attack in his bedroom, or (B) Littlefinger is lying for reasons unknown, and someone else, possibly Littlefinger himself, was involved in the second attack on Bran.

Disclaimer: Although I am reading the books, I do not know for certain who was involved in that incident, but I know that either Littlefinger or Tyrion is lying about who owned the dagger.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:37 AM   #112
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Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.
My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion. I was just saying that there is nothing to point to that.

And if we are going to go down that road, Bran should not have been peeping on people doing the naughty bang bang. He could have saved a whole lot of people trouble if he just passed that window on by.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #113
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And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?
At least one step farther--Jon Arryn died because he found out about Jamie and Cersei.

Jamie is in a lot of ways the root cause of the war, but he's the Gavrilo Princip (the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand which led to WWI) of this story.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:46 AM   #114
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My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion.
That wasn't me.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:47 AM   #115
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Right. It's Jamie who started it.

Now that Robb (and Ned and Cat) has figured it out...I wonder if Tyrion will also figure out that his hero big brother set him up?
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Jamie did not set up anyone, and as far as I know there is no evidence to that fact.
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Jaime started it by pushing Bran out the window. Everything else followed from that.
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My response was to the fact that Lord Kronos claimed that Jamie set up Tyrion. I was just saying that there is nothing to point to that.

And if we are going to go down that road, Bran should not have been peeping on people doing the naughty bang bang. He could have saved a whole lot of people trouble if he just passed that window on by.
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That wasn't me.
Sorry, Netringer is who I meant!
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:59 PM   #116
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Which brings me back to something I meant to ask last season but forgot. In episode 4 or 5, when Cat was at the Inn and took Tyrion into custody, what was she doing? When she saw Tyrion come in, it seemed like she was trying to hide, hoping he wouldn't notice her. Once he brought attention to her, she stood up and did all of that almost like she was trying to deflect attention from herself. Why exactly did she go from hiding in the corner to center of attention? If she had thought Tyrion was really responsible, why didn't she call for his arrest the moment he walked in?
If my memory serves, and most of this is explained better in the book and is hard to ascertain from the show, Cat is trying to lay low and remain hidden so no one knows her whereabouts as she returns to Winterfell. Her head could be worth a lot, especially to the Lannisters. So her first instinct is to hide and hope Tyrion will not see her or recognize her. In the book, and this isn't really a spoiler, just more of an explanation, she runs through her head all of the people at the inn and recognizes that many are either vassals to her father in Riverrun or somehow vassals or bound to Winterfell. So when she recognizes that Tyrion is going to see her, she realizes that her best bet is to rally out all the men who rightfully should stand behind her and arrest Tyrion based on the claims that he tried to murder her son. That's her best escape route to get the numbers on her side quickly. Bronn, the sellsword also happens to be there and says he will help because he knows there's coin in it.

Remember that she was in King's Landing secretly and no one save the Starks and Littlefinger knew she was there, or why.

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About this week's episode, do we have any idea where Arya and the other were at in their journey? Where were they located, and what was that building that they were staying in?
If you look at the map they were not far from Harrenhall, in an abandoned keep in a town on the edge of God's Eye. It's not explained at all where they are in the show.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:02 PM   #117
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And Bran wouldn't have seen Jaime and Cersei if they hadn't been in Winterfell because the King needed a new Hand because Jon Arryn died of suspicious causes. How far back can we go?
Or if they'd have just been able to keep their crap together. I still find it a bit hard to believe these two have been secretly having sex for years and they are still sooooo hot for each other they have to sneak away having sex in someone else's house. Ugh. That just bugs.

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Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).
But that's not true.

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Tyrion did talk about it. Littlefinger said that the dagger was his and that the Imp won it by betting against Jamie Lannister. When this was told to Tyrion, that he bet against his own brother, he advised Catelyn it was a lie. Tyrion said, "I never bet against my brother."

So Tyrion claims never to have owned the dagger. Littlefinger says it was his at first and that Tyrion won it from him. Take from that what you will, but I don't see a path in there where it was Tyrion's dagger and Jamie took it from him. It was either (A) Tyrion's and he is lying, and was somehow involved in Bran's attack in his bedroom, or (B) Littlefinger is lying for reasons unknown, and someone else, possibly Littlefinger himself, was involved in the second attack on Bran.

Disclaimer: Although I am reading the books, I do not know for certain who was involved in that incident, but I know that either Littlefinger or Tyrion is lying about who owned the dagger.
Wow I think you just cleared that up for me. I hadn't realized that Tyrion said he never bet against his brother (or I did and forgot) so you're right....and I don't think Tyrion is lying.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:11 PM   #118
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Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).
That's actually a very good assertion and I can honestly say that although I'm reading the books, I've never looked at it exactly that way. Well done!

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But that's not true.
But don't they? Robert brings Ned and his family to King's Landing, virtually against his will, which leads to his demise. Ned, by being there and being the only honest and moral character, unveils why Jon Arryn was killed and that Cersei and Robert's kids are actually Cersei and Jamie's kids. Because of that information, and because of what Bran saw, Cersei thinks it best to try and get rid of Robert through a "hunting accident" before that information is revealed. Something that likely would not have happened if Ned had not sprung his knowledge upon her. So in turn, it was Ned's forthrightness that started the domino effect that led to Robert's death just as Robert's insistence on Ned going to King's Landing led to Ned's death.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:29 PM   #119
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Actually in retrospect the whole Wolves/Stark kids thing is brilliant foreshadowing to the story.
Wolf (Ned) and Stag (Robert) kill one another, leaving a litter of wolves without a parent. Sansa's wolf gets executed, (she is no longer a Stark), Aria's has to fend for itself (she goes on the run).
Now we have Bran who seems to have a psychic connection to his wolf, Robb's who is the fierce warrior (one of the battle reports said his wolf killed several Lannister soldiers) and Jon Snow's who can detect the White Walkers (useful skill beyond the wall).
DING! DING! DING!
At least one other person is paying attention around here.......
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:39 PM   #120
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DING! DING! DING!
At least one other person is paying attention around here.......
So I guess the rest of us aren't.
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