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Old 04-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #31
buscuitboy
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Wink back it up

While I agree that the direction of streaming seems to be the way of the future, keep one thing in mind when collecting and archiving your own material. Back it up.

Unless you have EVERYTHING on actual discs, having 10TB of hard drive space on a home media server of some kind with thousands of movies and/or TV shows is great, but if that drive fails, you will lose IT ALL. I say this cause I speak from experience.

A long time ago, I had a simple 250GB hard drive fail on me. It had just movie and TV shows on it. I didn't really mind too much on what was lost as I was pretty much able to obtain the important stuff, but it made me rethink how I store important material.

Now, I have a hard drive with photos and my music that is backed up to other locations (online and/or additional hard drives). Using some sort of RAID setup is probably another good way to go as well when it comes to backing up all those movies and TV shows.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:30 PM   #32
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While I agree that the direction of streaming seems to be the way of the future, keep one thing in mind when collecting and archiving your own material. Back it up.

Unless you have EVERYTHING on actual discs, having 10TB of hard drive space on a home media server of some kind with thousands of movies and/or TV shows is great, but if that drive fails, you will lose IT ALL. I say this cause I speak from experience.

A long time ago, I had a simple 250GB hard drive fail on me. It had just movie and TV shows on it. I didn't really mind too much on what was lost as I was pretty much able to obtain the important stuff, but it made me rethink how I store important material.

Now, I have a hard drive with photos and my music that is backed up to other locations (online and/or additional hard drives). Using some sort of RAID setup is probably another good way to go as well when it comes to backing up all those movies and TV shows.
I have a 4 drive (1.5 TB each) NAS and one drive died on my a month or so ago. Have had it for about 4 years, so a bit early for a drive to go.

But yeah, drives fail

Photos (i.e. important stuff) is backed up in like 10 places (multi in home, online, parents house)
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:11 PM   #33
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Back it up.
That has always been essential. It is often overlooked.

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Using some sort of RAID setup is probably another good way to go as well when it comes to backing up all those movies and TV shows.
Be careful, there. Using a RAID array as a backup medium is perfectly fine. Indeed, I have a backup server that does just that. Storing material on a RAID array, as opposed to a simple drive, is NOT a substitue for a backup solution, however.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:37 PM   #34
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The sizes involved with the movies and videos and music are too large to back up. Using a RAID or duplication like with a WHS is the best way. I have dozens of Terabytes of content. There is no way I could back it all up. Worst case, I would have to pull the discs out of storage if my WHS or unRAIDs went belly up.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:56 PM   #35
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The sizes involved with the movies and videos and music are too large to back up. Using a RAID or duplication like with a WHS is the best way. I have dozens of Terabytes of content. There is no way I could back it all up. Worst case, I would have to pull the discs out of storage if my WHS or unRAIDs went belly up.
I agree, but I have a LOT less than you. My Total space is 12TB right now with 8 useable (8 TB RAID plus an additional set of 2 2TB discs mirroring each other). Still, I only have about 3TB free- and I haven't archived even half of my discs.

Hopefully, I will get by until 3TB discs become the norm, or I end up with a totally new solution.


On another note, everyone in my house has enjoyed the elimination of discs as much as I have been able to. No one wants to trek down to the media closet to choose a movie any more. With pyTivo and Vidmgr, searching from the Tivo is so cool they love to show their friends.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:50 PM   #36
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The sizes involved with the movies and videos and music are too large to back up.
There is no such thing as "too large to back up". Multi-terrabyte tape backup media are available. Solutions like dar can break up the backup into chunks that can fit on individual hard drives. A backup array will no more than double the cost of storage, while securing the data and having it available on line.

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Using a RAID
RAID is not a backup solution, period. A RAID N array for N > 0 is less frail than a single hard drive, but it is not fault proof. I can tell you from personal experience RAID arrays can and do fail on a regular basis. If a backup does not exist then POOF! - the data is gone.

Even more to the point, users are even less reliable than hard drives. Even the most competent user will occasionally accidentally delete or overwrite important data. A proper backup strategy stands as decent insurance against data loss in both scenarios.

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or duplication like with a WHS is the best way.
WHS? Windows Home Server? You lost me, there. What do you mean by "duplication"?

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I have dozens of Terabytes of content.
Every last byte, or some large fraction of which could be lost in the event of an array failure. Even a loss of a small fraction may be serious if the data is critical.

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There is no way I could back it all up.
Then sooner or later, you will lose it. It is better to cut your storage in half, using the other half as backup media, and preferentially choose which data to discard than to risk losing all of it.

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Worst case, I would have to pull the discs out of storage if my WHS or unRAIDs went belly up.
Pull what discs out of storage? If you are storing a copy of your data in off-line hard discs, then you have a backup solution.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #37
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I agree, but I have a LOT less than you. My Total space is 12TB right now with 8 useable (8 TB RAID plus an additional set of 2 2TB discs mirroring each other). Still, I only have about 3TB free- and I haven't archived even half of my discs.
My main storage systrem is a RAID6 array built from eight 3T spindles, giving a total storage of 18T. This system has 5T free at the moment.

My backup server hosts a RAID6 array built from twelve 1.5T spindles, with 2.3T free at the moment. Every morning at 04:00, rsync copies over any new or updated friles from the main array to the backup.

Every couple of months, I run dar against the backup system and incrementally archive any updates to 1T and 1.5T hard drives stored off premises.

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Hopefully, I will get by until 3TB discs become the norm, or I end up with a totally new solution.
Actually, right now 2T and 3T discs tie for lowest cost per byte if one does not consider the cost of power and drive slots. After considering the cost of a drive slot, 3T drives win at about $80 per T, but 4T drives arent too far behind at about $90 per T, especially after considering the energy cost of 3T drives.

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On another note, everyone in my house has enjoyed the elimination of discs as much as I have been able to. No one wants to trek down to the media closet to choose a movie any more. With pyTivo and Vidmgr, searching from the Tivo is so cool they love to show their friends.
You're welcome.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:30 AM   #38
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If you don't have off-site backup, you don't really have backup.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:40 AM   #39
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There is no such thing as "too large to back up". Multi-terrabyte tape backup media are available. Solutions like dar can break up the backup into chunks that can fit on individual hard drives. A backup array will no more than double the cost of storage, while securing the data and having it available on line.


RAID is not a backup solution, period. A RAID N array for N > 0 is less frail than a single hard drive, but it is not fault proof. I can tell you from personal experience RAID arrays can and do fail on a regular basis. If a backup does not exist then POOF! - the data is gone.

Even more to the point, users are even less reliable than hard drives. Even the most competent user will occasionally accidentally delete or overwrite important data. A proper backup strategy stands as decent insurance against data loss in both scenarios.


WHS? Windows Home Server? You lost me, there. What do you mean by "duplication"?


Every last byte, or some large fraction of which could be lost in the event of an array failure. Even a loss of a small fraction may be serious if the data is critical.


Then sooner or later, you will lose it. It is better to cut your storage in half, using the other half as backup media, and preferentially choose which data to discard than to risk losing all of it.


Pull what discs out of storage? If you are storing a copy of your data in off-line hard discs, then you have a backup solution.
The original BD and HD DVD discs.

And I guess I should have said too large to make a backup practical.

I never said RAID was a backup solution. Just that that is the best thing to use to help avoid data loss. In my unRAID I would have to lose the parity drive and one of the array drives to lose any data. And then it would only be the data on the one array drive that would be lost.

With the WHS it uses duplication(if you enable it). So all the data in the drive pool is located on two hard drives in the drive pool. I currently have thirty one drives in my drive pool. Both the drives with the specific data would need to go belly up to lose that specific data.

But so far over the last twenty years of using hard drives. Close to two hundred, I've yet to have a hard drive fail once put into service. I know it can happen, but so far it hasn't. Even my old 20MB(yes MB) drive from the early 90's still works.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:01 AM   #40
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Is your ripped Blu-ray content playing back at the same quality as if you were playing the disk itself? I've thought about putting all of my movies to disk in order to have the collection available through TiVo - but I really enjoy how incredible some of the Blu-rays look and sound. I don't think I'd want to lose that in favor of convenience.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:19 AM   #41
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I use some media players to play back my content. I don't use my TiVos for that. I would probably need to sacrifice quality for the audio and video to do that I do use my TiVos to play back my broadcast HD recorded content though.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:24 AM   #42
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Well, at the risk of supporting trip1ex' psych argument, yeah.

Thanks for the support.

Contrary to your earlier argument I am talking about the collecting of shows not the watching of shows.

There is some kind of hoarding mentality at work when one will never ever be able to watch but a tiny fraction of a 10 TB and growing collection of shows.

I am assuming one isn't stranded on a desert island or anything. And that one continues to be interested in new programming.

I do understand the need to have something for a rainy day and keep some favorites on hand, but ....I think that is amply covered by a far smaller collection.

I also realize this is digital hoarding. Much less messy than your physical goods hoarding. And technical advancements in storage density keeps the digital hoarding mess in check.

But there is probably similar psychological reasons for not being able to let go of your digital content.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #43
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I hoard any show/movie that I download/rip and watch, even though majority of the time I don't go back and watch it again.

But I'm down to <1 TB free on my NAS and when that gets close to full I have ZERO problem hacking and slashing a lot of shows I'll never watch again (mainly dramas)
And then onto the movies.

I'd rather delete something I'd never watch again then spend more money to save them.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:44 PM   #44
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Thanks for the support.
Oh, well, why not?

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Contrary to your earlier argument I am talking about the collecting of shows not the watching of shows.
Uh, yeah. That's the topic at hand.

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There is some kind of hoarding mentality at work when one will never ever be able to watch but a tiny fraction of a 10 TB and growing collection of shows.
Except that one can. Potentially, at least. Of course one never knows how much time one has left, and I may well get hit by a piece of falling space junk tomorrow, but assuming I have at least a decade or so left to go, I woud not be hard pressed to watch every movie in my collection at least one more time. A fairly casual consumption could easily cover 200 unique shows a year, which means the library could be fully watched in substanitally less than 10 years.

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I am assuming one isn't stranded on a desert island or anything.
Does "anything" include being physically disabled so that mobility is limited? Those of us who are may well choose to occupy more of our time with watching TV than those of us who enjoy normal mobility.

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And that one continues to be interested in new programming.
Not so much. Oh, there are a few good movies coming out, but most of the new stuff is junk. There may be a tendency to feel this is a result of diminishing creativity on the part of those who create films, and perhaps there is some truth in that, but in reality it's not a new trend. Almost all new films have always been crap. Every year, two or three truly quality films are produced, though, and over time those have a massed into a veritable mountain of fine cinema. I enjoy having access to a good fraction of that mountain.

One guy over on IMDB calimed to have watched 45,000 films in his life, and he is not very old. We called him on it, but while 45,000 in 20 years is a ridiculous number, 4500 is not, although it is admittedly a large number.

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I do understand the need to have something for a rainy day and keep some favorites on hand, but ....I think that is amply covered by a far smaller collection.
It's much more than that. First of all, most people are subject to varying moods, and a film that one might like to view on Monday may not be one the person would care to view on Friday. Having a selection means the user can really view what he wants and when. Increase the number of viewers to 3 or 4, and the requisite variety increases exponentially. Even with nearly 2000 films on hand, it can sometimes be a challenge to find one everyone in the house wants to view.

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I also realize this is digital hoarding. Much less messy than your physical goods hoarding.
Perhaps not. A physical library may be very well organized, and no mess, at all, despite there being perhaps thousands of resident volumes. It takes time and effort to maintain such order, however. It takes much less effort to maintain order in a digital system, though, so your point is ultimately valid.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:51 PM   #45
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If you don't have off-site backup, you don't really have backup.
OTOH, if you don't have on-site backup, then you may not have acccess to the data in time to make it useful. Backup strategies are a balancing act between cost, availability, and robustness.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:57 PM   #46
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You're welcome.
Yep! You 'da man. Your help with pytivo, vidmgr and the metadata really took my collection to the next level!
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:09 PM   #47
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The original BD and HD DVD discs.
Oh. Fewer than 80 of the movies on my server are rips. The vast majority were recorded by the TiVos. That, and I have hundreds of pieces of downloaded software with licenses. 'Not to mention all my financial data and a fair amount of engineering.

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I never said RAID was a backup solution. Just that that is the best thing to use to help avoid data loss.
But it isn't. That is the point.

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In my unRAID I would have to lose the parity drive and one of the array drives to lose any data.
Not necessarily. I have lost arrays without the failure of even one drive. I have also upon occasion lost more than one drive. A year or so ago, I lost 4 drives simultaneously in a RAID6 array.

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And then it would only be the data on the one array drive that would be lost.
Lost is lost.

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With the WHS it uses duplication(if you enable it). So all the data in the drive pool is located on two hard drives in the drive pool. I currently have thirty one drives in my drive pool. Both the drives with the specific data would need to go belly up to lose that specific data.
That is mirroring, and it is a robust form of RAID. It still does not guarantee data loss. If the data on one drive does not match the data on the other, then corruption has occurred. The system must then chose which data set it thinks to be correct. If it chooses the wrong one...

It also doesn't help at all if the user deletes the wrong file. I once accidentally wrote over the video of Superman with its metafile, before the sytem had a chance to back it up. I was livid - Superman is one of my favorite films - and it was nearly four years before it was shown again and I could add it back to my library.

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But so far over the last twenty years of using hard drives. Close to two hundred, I've yet to have a hard drive fail once put into service.
Then you have been very lucky. I've averaged 3 or 4 drive failures a year, although I deal with somewhat more than 200 drives.

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I know it can happen, but so far it hasn't. Even my old 20MB(yes MB) drive from the early 90's still works.
A 20M drive from the 90s? I've never had a drive that small, and I have been buying hard drives since 1985. I think the smallest I ever had was 30M. (Well, actually I did buy some 8M removable media drives for the university back in the early 80s.)

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Old 04-18-2012, 01:54 PM   #48
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Early 90s, like 1991. Not sure of the exact year though(it could have been a little earlier or a little later). It was my first hard drive and I remember it costing too much. I only got my first real PC(IBM with 8088 CPU) in 1984 and that was only because it was a requirement at school. And that was the PC I put the hard drive in

WHS v1 uses what is called duplication, not a RAID and they dont call it mirroring. There are pointers that it uses to figure out where each file is located. Ten files could be located on twenty different hard drives. Each file will be located on two separate discs.

Of course the issue with that is if the C drive goes you have to do a restore. And if that fails, you could still access each drive individually to find the content, but you have no way of knowing where each file in a folder would be located. And with 31 drives it would make it more difficult. But forunately for me, the files I would be most concerned about are my ISO files which average 31GB in size. And there are only around 850 of those on my WHS. I would just recover those and forget about the coverart, NFOs, fanart etc. Since I could easily get those back with the NFO program I use (Ember).

I plan on starting to remove alot of the content from my WHS soon and moving it over to my second unRAID setup. Since that is more efficient with the use of hard drive space. I've just been too lazy with getting started on it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:28 PM   #49
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If you don't have off-site backup, you don't really have backup.
In the same vein, a favorite quote, not original to me: "If you haven't tested your backups, you don't *have* backups, you have hopes."


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But so far over the last twenty years of using hard drives. Close to two hundred, I've yet to have a hard drive fail once put into service. I know it can happen, but so far it hasn't. Even my old 20MB(yes MB) drive from the early 90's still works.
I have encountered quite a few failed drives. Invariably its from machines that were running fine for years, then were shut down for a week or two during a vacation, and then the drives wouldn't spin back up. If you keep a drive spinning, it does seem to last for many years.

I think I might have a 10 MB hard drive out in the garage. But where would I find an ST-506 controller to read it? And an ISA or parallel SCSI system to talk to the controller? Even if a drive is functional, how do I access the bits? Similarly, I might still have some 8" floppy drives in the garage, but I have nothing operational that can power them up or access floppy diskettes, assuming that any diskettes I could find in the garage are still readable.

If you have data you want to keep, you need to copy it over to newer media every once in a while.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:13 PM   #50
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That 20MB drive is still in my PC from 1984. I power it up once a year and so far everything still works. At least the last time I powered it up which was during the Christmas season last year.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:04 AM   #51
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We found that if someone is actually on NBC they are 4% more likely to watch it.
As someone who has actually been on NBC, your number might be a bit on the high side ...
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:49 AM   #52
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As someone who has actually been on NBC...
I think we're going to need more detail than that, assuming you aren't just talking about being in the Today Show crowd shots.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:36 PM   #53
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I think we're going to need more detail than that, assuming you aren't just talking about being in the Today Show crowd shots.
Special guest (character, did not appear as myself) on a popular, long running comedy series. Tivo'ed myself long ago and see the reruns every now and then. Not too hard for TiVo fans to figure out the rest, but I just thought the original line about NBC was funny, since members of the crew said the same thing at the time.

Making the post somewhat more relevant to the thread, I prefer the iTunes and disc versions, as they are better quality and commercial-free. I do think that a significant amount of content will be streamed or cloud-based and that in less than a generation, DVD's and Blu-rays will be like 45's and videotapes are today - around, but more collectible than mainstream.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:26 AM   #54
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I do think that a significant amount of content will be streamed or cloud-based and that in less than a generation, DVD's and Blu-rays will be like 45's and videotapes are today - around, but more collectible than mainstream.
I don't doubt this. I believe the studios would love to see it happen since even if you OWN it, they could CONTROL it.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:31 PM   #55
dboff01
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While I use to purchase DVDs regularly and have well over 400 (which I never go back to watch again), I have purchased less than 10 blu-Rays to date.

I have used Netflix disc rentals for over 7 yrs, which I've bounced between 1 to 3 at a time, given my spare time at any given point in my life.

However, lately, I find myself using the streaming Netflix service more than any other services for video, including DVR recorded content. Additionally, I've recently added MOG music service on my Roku and have completely abandoned listening to cds/mp3s as a result. I basically have unlimited access to 90+% of music I want to listen to with no restrictions and no ownership management/handling hassles.

The low-cost rental via streaming model with unlimited content consumption is just so convenient and the quality (while not the best a la blu-ray) is pretty darn good, even for this once-proclaimed audiophile/videophile.

In short, I believe my "collection" days are behind me.

Last edited by dboff01 : 04-20-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 04-21-2012, 03:16 AM   #56
nexus99
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I have 2 devices for cosuming content:

1) Tivo. Record and holds shows for me. I have a bunch of seasons waiting for me to watch.
2) HTPC. Mainly for the kids. I rip their cartoons on my PC and drop them on the server. I haven't watched a disk in the living room in more than a year.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:14 PM   #57
jfh3
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I also believe that for the most part my collection days are behind me. Little of the new TV or Movie content interests me in the last few years.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:15 PM   #58
javabird
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I think larrs and trip1ex both make good points. I confess I tend to be a hoarder. I had stacks of videotaped TV shows I never watched and finally threw them out when I got my first Tivo. I bought a DVD recorder and transferred my purchased VHS movies to DVDs and then I ended up throwing them out when I got an HDTV because the transfers just didn't look that good on the new TV. One day I was sick and I couldn't seem to find anything to watch even though I had a stack of DVDs on my shelf. It makes more sense to rent. (That's what I tell myself, but lately I have been buying movies in iTunes, it's too easy and is instant gratification).

People are talking a lot right now about "future-proofing" movie collections. I wonder how long that will work before the next new technology. My son and his friends are unconcerned- they use on-demand video streaming and Netflix. He stocks up on books (the dead tree kind) instead.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:54 PM   #59
sathead
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I like many others here use a raid setup (FreeNAS with three 2TB data disks and one 2TB parity disk) for a total of 5.4TB usable storage. I have several media players around the house; a Dune, a PopcornHour, several eGreats, a Patriot Box Office and one other minor brand who's name I've forgotten.
I find it extremely convenient to have lots of media from 1960's to current TV shows and assorted movies available at any TV at any time without disk hunting for some DVD's or BD's.

In my case- all that content (currently about 4TB) came from either DVD's, DVD box sets, BD's, BD box set, or downloaded content via usenet. Now do I need backups? Well, all the content from my purchased optical discs are still on those factory discs- so why should I make yet another backup? The content from usenet is saved onto BD25's after download- so there's my backup for that too. In the three + years of running my raid I have indeed had a disk failure. But upon replacing the failed drive the system did rebuild the array without any data loss. As a matter of fact- we were still able to use the array as normal while it was rebuilding.

Offsite backups? Yeah, nice to have- but that takes real commitment to keep current. Guess most who do off site BU's are thinking flood, hurricane, fire, etc... takes out your house and then you go to your off site backup to rebuild? In all honesty- if my house burns down or blows away- I could care less about my movie & TV collection!
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:11 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post

Except that one can. Potentially, at least. Of course one never knows how much time one has left, and I may well get hit by a piece of falling space junk tomorrow, but assuming I have at least a decade or so left to go, I woud not be hard pressed to watch every movie in my collection at least one more time. A fairly casual consumption could easily cover 200 unique shows a year, which means the library could be fully watched in substanitally less than 10 years.

Not so much. Oh, there are a few good movies coming out, but most of the new stuff is junk. There may be a tendency to feel this is a result of diminishing creativity on the part of those who create films, and perhaps there is some truth in that, but in reality it's not a new trend. Almost all new films have always been crap. Every year, two or three truly quality films are produced, though, and over time those have a massed into a veritable mountain of fine cinema. I enjoy having access to a good fraction of that mountain.

One guy over on IMDB calimed to have watched 45,000 films in his life, and he is not very old. We called him on it, but while 45,000 in 20 years is a ridiculous number, 4500 is not, although it is admittedly a large number.
I don't think that was my argument that you literally can't watch a ton of content if you set your mind to it. Mine was more a practical argument. NOt the exception to the rule argument. NOr was I arguing whether new content is junk or not. Just pointing out a few of the assumptions behind my argument.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
It's much more than that. First of all, most people are subject to varying moods, and a film that one might like to view on Monday may not be one the person would care to view on Friday. Having a selection means the user can really view what he wants and when. Increase the number of viewers to 3 or 4, and the requisite variety increases exponentially. Even with nearly 2000 films on hand, it can sometimes be a challenge to find one everyone in the house wants to view.
Good point about others in the household. And I understand being in the mood to watch a particular show.

But at some point more choice doesn't mean finding something to watch when you want to watch it.

But rather it means spending more time (or too much time) figuring out what you want to watch.

Ok maybe if you instantly knew the name of the movie you wanted to watch at any given time then the more choice the better.

But what I find is that the more choice the more time I spend wading through my choices. I often don't know what I want to watch at any given time until I come across it.

So at some point more choice ....doesn't do much for someone. How much time are you going to spend wading through your choices when you are in the mood to watch a show? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? There are only so many choices you can go through in each of those time frames.

And I Find that even with all this choice I have between my 1.5TB hard drive full of shows, my movies on disc and on the computer, live cabletv, and Netflix I often can't find anything I am in the mood for.
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