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Old 01-05-2012, 04:29 AM   #61
Scooter80
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Originally Posted by AlanMintz View Post
Now, if some people like this accidental "feature", perhaps they can consider making it an option in settings, but the rest of us want our correct, as documented, functionality back.

* support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1851/kw/remote%20control says:

24. FWD (fast-forward) fast-forwards through a program. Press it up to three times for three speeds. Press it a fourth time to resume playing. When the box is paused, it allows you to advance frame-by-frame.

and

13. Back (rewind) rewinds a program. Press it up to three times for three speeds. Press it a fourth time to resume playing. When the box is paused, it allows you to go back frame-by-frame.
Good find!!

This would suggest it is an unintended change as this documentation is specifically for the Premiere. Even so, that's pretty sad as that would suggest TiVo did not even test the most fundamental operation of their product before releasing this software "upgrade."

Count me in for the way it is supposed to be!! That is: a 4th press will return to play. After ten years of TiVo of operating my TiVo's this way, you can't just make a change like this. I thought my remote died the first time I came across this change and my wall hurt because of it! Ever since it still gets me every now and then. The old way is so ingrained, I will take forever to adjust to this change. It shouldn't have happened. I'm fine with it being an option or code, but let us know about it for cripe's sake!

I have a few emails in to TiVo Support to see if they'll give me an answer on feature or mistake.

Last edited by Scooter80 : 01-05-2012 at 04:32 AM. Reason: Update
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Scooter80

Good find!!

This would suggest it is an unintended change as this documentation is specifically for the Premiere. Even so, that's pretty sad as that would suggest TiVo did not even test the most fundamental operation of their product before releasing this software "upgrade."
Or that they simply forgot to update their support documents.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:15 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
That's a false alarm. There's a menu entry to re-enable 30 sec scan again after disabling 30 sec skip if you want it back.
Settings-Remote,CableCard, & Devices-Remote Control Setup ...
I think this is how it has been from the beginning with the premiere. I remember accessing this menu when I first got my Premieres and had enabled the 30 second skip.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Scooter80 View Post
This would suggest it is an unintended change as this documentation is specifically for the Premiere. Even so, that's pretty sad as that would suggest TiVo did not even test the most fundamental operation of their product before releasing this software "upgrade."
I think it's more likely that the software team decided that the new way makes more sense and just made the change, but the documentation team didn't get the word. And for the record, I prefer it the new way. I was not in the habit of using the 4th-FF-play feature, but I managed to activate it many times by accident while trying to reach warp FF speed.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:14 PM   #65
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I think it is now fairly conclusive that TiVo meant for this change to take place. I shot off two emails to their support and received two replies from different agents that read different but mean the same. Here is their response:


Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I would be glad to help you with your feature inquiry.

I do apologize about any inconvenience this update may have caused you and that our support information online has not yet been updated. However, the removal of the fast-forward button resuming play back after pressing it a fourth time was a known feature to be removed with the new software due to customer feedback and engineering purposes. For the time being you will need to press play to resume play back. However, if you like you can go online to: http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm and submit a formal feature request to have this feature re-added and hopefully that is something we can do for you.

I am sorry that you were not notified of all the changes that were set to be made with the software update. If you would like we would be happy to assist you with any issues or " bugs" you are currently experiencing. Please feel free to reply to this e-mail with detailed information of any issues you are experiencing and we would be happy to address them.


I urge EVERYONE who does not like the new "feature" to click the link in their response and suggest they make this an option. I'd really like to know how many people made the request for the change. And what "engineering purposes" supposedly forced it.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
I think it's more likely that the software team decided that the new way makes more sense and just made the change, but the documentation team didn't get the word. And for the record, I prefer it the new way. I was not in the habit of using the 4th-FF-play feature, but I managed to activate it many times by accident while trying to reach warp FF speed.
This. I always resumed play by pressing Play. And more than once hit FF 4 times by mistake. I like this change.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:00 PM   #67
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I hate this way of doing it. I hope this isn't a change. This needs to get back to normal. Pressing the forward button a fourth time to resume was so convenient. I had the timing down to a science! Now I just end up passing the beginning of a show. Will I guess used to it? Probably, but it will feel like I'm losing a nice trick.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:26 PM   #68
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place me on the side of the folks who can't keep track of how many times we've hit the ff key and think dropping into play on the 4th press is more a bug than a feature. i've used tivo for 5 years now and it still irritates me when i hit ff and instead of speeding up, i drop back into play mode.

my (totally unsubstantiated) guess is that they did it that way in the early days because replaytv had a 'skip' button and they didn't, so this was their way of compensating. but when they finally got a skip button and people fell out of the habit of the ff workaround, they started complaining about the behavior. imo, it is a bug to go to play when you didn't expressly hit the 'play' button although i realize you can go to play in other screens by hitting right arrow or select.

bottom line, count me in for a bing or a bong on the 4th press to let me know i'm going as fast as i can.

/guy
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:08 AM   #69
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Yes, we made the change on purpose

Hi all,

Yes, the change to no longer "wrap around" from the fastest fast-forward speed to play speed is an intentional change.

We found many users would accidentally end up in play speed with an extra/accidental press of the fast-forward button.

Users fast-forwarding in the first or second speed already have to press PLAY to drop out of fast-forward. This change only affects users who use the third fast-forward speed and aren't already using PLAY.

I understand that change is hard. I hope you'll understand that we chose to make this particular change to eliminate a known usability problem.

Thanks,
--Margret
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:32 AM   #70
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I hope Tivo realizes that the "option" vote is really 58% because the people who voted for the "option", really want the 4th press to resume playback. They, like me, are willing to let each Tivo owner choose their own preference.

If you take the 22% that want the 4th press to resume playback and add it to the 36% that say to make it a user option, I think you will get a more accurate precentage of people who really want the 4th press to resume playback but are willing to have it be a user option, bumping the "option" vote to 58%.

The 30 second skip doesn't cut it for me because you never know how many times you need to press it to get through the commerical package, and the time it takes to figure it out, Tivo will take you past the point of commercial end and clip a bit of the broadcast. It was brilliant how the 4th press of the Fast Forward would back up just enough to compensate for human reaction time to resume play. Without this asset, Tivo is just another DVR. PLEASE LISTEN TO US TIVO!!! Your Tivo owners have been loyal to you - it's time you make this right!
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:33 AM   #71
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I hope Tivo realizes that the "option" vote is really 58% because the people who voted for the "option", really want the 4th press to resume playback. They, like me, are willing to let each Tivo owner choose their own preference.

If you take the 22% that want the 4th press to resume playback and add it to the 36% that say to make it a user option, I think you will get a more accurate precentage of people who really want the 4th press to resume playback but are willing to have it be a user option, bumping the "option" vote to 58%.

The 30 second skip doesn't cut it for me because you never know how many times you need to press it to get through the commerical package, and the time it takes to figure it out, Tivo will take you past the point of commercial end and clip a bit of the broadcast. It was brilliant how the 4th press of the Fast Forward would back up just enough to compensate for human reaction time to resume play. Without this asset, Tivo is just another DVR. PLEASE LISTEN TO US TIVO!!! Your Tivo owners have been loyal to you - it's time you make this right!
I think you are misinterpreting the results to promote your viewpoint. Those that chose make it an option are not necessarily any more likely to like it more/less. On one hand they may think 4xFF should do nothing, but think others should have an option to make it a functional press. On the other hand, they may think 4xFF should be play, but think that doing nothing is valid as well and should be an option. Nothing there says that they like the 4xFF as play for themselves. In reality that survey was poorly worded to get a preference of one way or the other. The survey probably should not have even included the option to make it an option as past history shows that Tivo tends to not make tons of options. Presumably, as that make the interface confusing and adds complexity the product. In reality, I think the mistake that Tivo made here was not making changes like this at product launch. With the introduction of the S4 and a new remote, you do expect some changes to behavior and it would have been a bit easier to digest change (for an upgrader) during the excitement period of the new box.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:28 AM   #72
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We found many users would accidentally end up in play speed with an extra/accidental press of the fast-forward button.
I understand this happening however if you end up in play it's very easy to press FF again and start over. Not so much when you run way past where you wanted because pressing FF didn't switch you to play.

Obviously new users won't have an issue along with many current ones. I simply don't like it because it takes what I did within a few seconds and turns it into a pain in the neck regardless of how many times I press the FF button... my mind still thinks (my) TiVo isn't getting the command so I keep pressing the button.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:10 AM   #73
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I hope Tivo realizes that the "option" vote is really 58% because the people who voted for the "option", really want the 4th press to resume playback. They, like me, are willing to let each Tivo owner choose their own preference.

If you take the 22% that want the 4th press to resume playback and add it to the 36% that say to make it a user option, I think you will get a more accurate precentage of people who really want the 4th press to resume playback but are willing to have it be a user option, bumping the "option" vote to 58%.

The 30 second skip doesn't cut it for me because you never know how many times you need to press it to get through the commerical package, and the time it takes to figure it out, Tivo will take you past the point of commercial end and clip a bit of the broadcast. It was brilliant how the 4th press of the Fast Forward would back up just enough to compensate for human reaction time to resume play. Without this asset, Tivo is just another DVR. PLEASE LISTEN TO US TIVO!!! Your Tivo owners have been loyal to you - it's time you make this right!
I use the 30-sec skip in conjunction with the Instant Replay button. Works very well. Faster than FF and the times when I have used FF, it was always annoying that the 4th press took me back to normal play.

Should TiVo have made this an option? Possibly, but that would have added more code. Not much, but that is true of a lot of things and they add up. Repeating the mantra that "TiVo doesn't listen" and implying that a vast majority prefer it the old way doesn't make it so. Assuming that the 36% who voted for an option prefer it the old way is not logical. I would have voted for that and I prefer it the new way.

WOW! You have to move your thumb slightly and hit the "Play" button instead of the FF button again. What a hardship. Must be exhausting. And it is much more difficult than starting over when you accidentally overshoot. (Yes, I realize that it is a matter of "muscle memory", but muscles can be retrained)
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:39 PM   #74
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...

Obviously new users won't have an issue along with many current ones. I simply don't like it because it takes what I did within a few seconds and turns it into a pain in the neck regardless of how many times I press the FF button... my mind still thinks (my) TiVo isn't getting the command so I keep pressing the button.
Except that my roommate just got a new Premiere and all the documentation with it and on TiVo's website still shows that a fourth press will return to play.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:54 PM   #75
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...
I understand that change is hard. I hope you'll understand that we chose to make this particular change to eliminate a known usability problem.

Thanks,
--Margret
Margret, it's not that change is hard. Heck we've been crying for change ever since the Premiere was released. It's change that goes unannounced and is done under the guise that we requested it that's an issue. I understand you may have received complaints about it, but how many people DIDN'T report that they LOVE it that way? I would bet many, many more! I guess the squeaky wheel will get the grease, but I still find it hard to believe there were so many reports of this being a problem that it had to change after 10+ years of TiVo operating this way.


And Ipwcomp, good for you. You've found a way that works for you. I'm proud of ya! We didn't ask for you to tell us how to use our TiVo or belittle us for complaining about a change that was unanticipated. We just opened this title to report what we thought was maybe a bug. And when we found it wasn't, we wanted to express our opinion that it should revert. Sorry if we're not up to your standards of the elite TiVo user you are. Heck, you could even follow instructions that said you should press fast-forward again if you "accidentally" pressed it a fourth time and returned to play. Counting came for me when I was 3 or 4 years old I think. You? Counting. Ugh! What a hardship! IT is exhausting!
Your signature says it all I guess. So quiet, to the rest of us, we should just lay down and take whatever TiVo shoves at us and tells us we requested, right? Whatever.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:45 PM   #76
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Just because you didn't request this change doesn't mean that nobody requested it. I guess the rest of us should just use our TiVo's the way you use yours and TiVo should never make any changes that adversely affect you.

I wasn't suggesting that you have to use your TiVo the way I use mine. I was just suggesting an alternative. As to my bit of sarcasm, I was mostly responding to the post that said it was easier for the people who overshoot to start over than to use the play button to resume.

You did more than express your opinion, you practically demanded that they change it back and have implied that TiVo made this change with little or no thought and that the vast majority of users prefer it the old way. The title of this thread categorically calls it a "bug". To my way of thinking, they are correcting a long standing design flaw.

Yes, TiVo should have announced this change and should correct the online documentation and perhaps include an errata/correction sheet with subsequent shipments of Premieres. If TiVo has to avoid making any changes that don't match the current documentation, then I guess the people who want to be able to use the HD menus and KidZone are SOL.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:53 PM   #77
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I hope TiVo realizes that the "option" vote is really 58% because the people who voted for the "option", really want the 4th press to resume playback. They, like me, are willing to let each TiVo owner choose their own preference.

......

definitely not true. I want the fourth press to do nothing, yet I had an "option" vote.
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:20 PM   #78
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Just because you didn't request this change doesn't mean that nobody requested it. I guess the rest of us should just use our TiVo's the way you use yours and TiVo should never make any changes that adversely affect you.

I wasn't suggesting that you have to use your TiVo the way I use mine. I was just suggesting an alternative. As to my bit of sarcasm, I was mostly responding to the post that said it was easier for the people who overshoot to start over than to use the play button to resume.

You did more than express your opinion, you practically demanded that they change it back and have implied that TiVo made this change with little or no thought and that the vast majority of users prefer it the old way. The title of this thread categorically calls it a "bug". To my way of thinking, they are correcting a long standing design flaw.

Yes, TiVo should have announced this change and should correct the online documentation and perhaps include an errata/correction sheet with subsequent shipments of Premieres. If TiVo has to avoid making any changes that don't match the current documentation, then I guess the people who want to be able to use the HD menus and KidZone are SOL.
All in all, your're pretty good at putting words in my mouth. I didn't want to get into an argument here, just wanted to point out that TiVo's decision to change this may be flawed by the thought that they may have received skewed data showing the change was wanted.

I never said nobody requested it. I am sure they did as there would be no other reason to change it other than the "engineering concerns" purported by the CS agent that responded to my query. I simply pointed out that there is almost a certainty that there are many more who did not report the fourth button press as a problem as they knew it was a feature and preferred it. I have been participating in TiVo's research surveys they send out monthly for quite awhile now and I don't recall ever being asked about this matter. How easy would it have been to ask? Instead, they apparently responded to negative customer feedback obtained from service calls or the like. This would inherently skew their data.

And I never even IMPLIED all users should do it my way. As far as adversely affecting me through TiVo's changes, they should never make a change that adversely affects the majority, and (as I am trying to point out) it is almost certain that the majority preferred it the old way. At the very least, an option should be given. It shouldn't be hard, maybe even a remote code could do it. Though they seem to want to leave those behind too.

And I'm certainly not saying TiVo shouldn't make any changes that don't match their documentation. How ignorant a statement is that? Change (like I said to Margret) is necessary and, I love most of what TiVo has done. I just know how easy it is to adjust a webpage to reflect the change and I agree, there certainly should be an insert in new Premieres being produced.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:10 PM   #79
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All in all, your're pretty good at putting words in my mouth. I didn't want to get into an argument here, just wanted to point out that TiVo's decision to change this may be flawed by the thought that they may have received skewed data showing the change was wanted.

I never said nobody requested it. I am sure they did as there would be no other reason to change it other than the "engineering concerns" purported by the CS agent that responded to my query. I simply pointed out that there is almost a certainty that there are many more who did not report the fourth button press as a problem as they knew it was a feature and preferred it. I have been participating in TiVo's research surveys they send out monthly for quite awhile now and I don't recall ever being asked about this matter. How easy would it have been to ask? Instead, they apparently responded to negative customer feedback obtained from service calls or the like. This would inherently skew their data.

And I never even IMPLIED all users should do it my way. As far as adversely affecting me through TiVo's changes, they should never make a change that adversely affects the majority, and (as I am trying to point out) it is almost certain that the majority preferred it the old way. At the very least, an option should be given. It shouldn't be hard, maybe even a remote code could do it. Though they seem to want to leave those behind too.

And I'm certainly not saying TiVo shouldn't make any changes that don't match their documentation. How ignorant a statement is that? Change (like I said to Margret) is necessary and, I love most of what TiVo has done. I just know how easy it is to adjust a webpage to reflect the change and I agree, there certainly should be an insert in new Premieres being produced.
You said that they implemented it "under the guise that it we requested it". You keep claiming that "a vast majority preferred it the old way." You have absolutely 0 data to back that up. How arrogant is that? I was never asked either and, even though I hate the previous behavior, I never complained (except for a bit of private cursing when it happened to me). If I had been asked, I would have voted for the option. If forced to choose between the two, I would have voted for the new behavior. FWIW I and, IMHO, "the vast majority" don't feel all that strongly about it one way or the other.

As far as implementing it as an option - yeah, pretty simple but you can't do it via "remote code". At best, you could toggle the flag via remote code and avoid adding another settings menu option. You would still have to add code to the TiVo to process that remote code to actually do the toggle and code to check the status of the flag when the >> or << keys are pressed when already at 3X speed.

There is a way to implement it w/o a flag and probably would make (almost) everybody happy. If the fourth(or greater) key press occurs within say 1 second of the third, ignore it. Otherwise, resume normal play.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:53 AM   #80
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Hi all,

Yes, the change to no longer "wrap around" from the fastest fast-forward speed to play speed is an intentional change.

We found many users would accidentally end up in play speed with an extra/accidental press of the fast-forward button.

Users fast-forwarding in the first or second speed already have to press PLAY to drop out of fast-forward. This change only affects users who use the third fast-forward speed and aren't already using PLAY.

I understand that change is hard. I hope you'll understand that we chose to make this particular change to eliminate a known usability problem.

Thanks,
--Margret
Thank You! I was always annoyed by that.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:02 PM   #81
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A couple observations:
  • Implementing a change versus implementing a user-preference is a usability tradeoff as well as an engineering cost. The tradeoff is making the UI more complex (it works this way, unless you navigate through some menus and set to to work that way). So it is understandable why they chose to make a change rather than create a new preference toggle. In a word, cheaper.
  • I prefer 30-second skip. I usually press it five times quickly, recognize if the show is back on or not, then either once more, or incremental presses on the skip-back button. It is what I got used to with my first TiVo and I like it that way, just as many of you liked having the fourth FF press return to play.
You won't catch me saying this isn't important to some users... Muscle memory is painful to change, and I would not like it if TiVo forced me to change my preferred way of advancing through commercials, either.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #82
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  • I prefer 30-second skip.
I don't think it's a one or the other deal. For commercials I use Skip (wife hates the default Skip method.. way too distracting). Other times I want to find a starting point and Skip is next to worthless.

I think most agree it's not Earth shattering but weeks later I'm still pressing the FF button trying to resume play. And then spend untold time trying to get back to where I was already. Even though being TiVo I'd probably change it as they did I'd still love to see the percentages of button presses on purpose versus by mistake.
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:34 PM   #83
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Hi all,

Yes, the change to no longer "wrap around" from the fastest fast-forward speed to play speed is an intentional change.

We found many users would accidentally end up in play speed with an extra/accidental press of the fast-forward button.

Users fast-forwarding in the first or second speed already have to press PLAY to drop out of fast-forward. This change only affects users who use the third fast-forward speed and aren't already using PLAY.

I understand that change is hard. I hope you'll understand that we chose to make this particular change to eliminate a known usability problem.

Thanks,
--Margret
Shame on you for NOT announcing it and shame on you for NOT updating your documentation. You had a whole community out there wasting time trying to figure out what was wrong with their units. After rebooting, playing with setting and going into forums we stumbled into finding out you "made the change on purpose" because a few users are not coordinated enough to hit the button a 4th time, as others have been doing for 10 years! That's just lame.

Also - shame on you for not being consistent across platforms. If your excuse holds any water then why did you not make the same change for the series 2 units? I have a premier and an older series 2.....now the FF is different for both......That's just wrong!
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:53 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by srpsrp View Post
Shame on you for NOT announcing it and shame on you for NOT updating your documentation. You had a whole community out there wasting time trying to figure out what was wrong with their units. After rebooting, playing with setting and going into forums we stumbled into finding out you "made the change on purpose" because a few users are not coordinated enough to hit the button a 4th time, as others have been doing for 10 years! That's just lame.
It isn't about coordination. There are plenty of threads over the years of double button press issues. Generally these are caused by sensitivity of the remote or dying batteries. It probably manifests it a lot more when using 3x FF.

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Originally Posted by srpsrp View Post
Also - shame on you for not being consistent across platforms. If your excuse holds any water then why did you not make the same change for the series 2 units? I have a premier and an older series 2.....now the FF is different for both......That's just wrong!
TiVo isn't updating S2 or S3 units anymore. I don't see why they would dedicate a software update for such a trivial feature.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:57 AM   #85
lpwcomp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainwater View Post
It isn't about coordination. There are plenty of threads over the years of double button press issues. Generally these are caused by sensitivity of the remote or dying batteries. It probably manifests it a lot more when using 3x FF.



TiVo isn't updating S2 or S3 units anymore. I don't see why they would dedicate a software update for such a trivial feature.
DNFTEC!
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:10 PM   #86
srpsrp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainwater View Post
It isn't about coordination. There are plenty of threads over the years of double button press issues. Generally these are caused by sensitivity of the remote or dying batteries. It probably manifests it a lot more when using 3x FF.



TiVo isn't updating S2 or S3 units anymore. I don't see why they would dedicate a software update for such a trivial feature.

I disagree.....it's all about coordination. Tivo should have never made this change, especially unannounced.
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:14 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
DNFTEC!

yai!
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:07 PM   #88
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nasty. a signature line like this "You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" and you seem surprised that people that people think you have a bad attitude.

count me among the not broke-don't fix it crowd. not really a fan of having to explain to my tv-using guests that each Tivo now works differently because Tivo can no longer keep its act together.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:28 PM   #89
srpsrp
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Originally Posted by mizsydney View Post
nasty. a signature line like this "You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" and you seem surprised that people that people think you have a bad attitude.

count me among the not broke-don't fix it crowd. not really a fan of having to explain to my tv-using guests that each Tivo now works differently because Tivo can no longer keep its act together.

AMEN! I'm with you.

PS I also totally agree with your comment about the nasty poster.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:35 PM   #90
lpwcomp
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What "nasty" post did I make in this thread? OK, I will make one now: If you don't like my sig, then stop living up(down) to it.
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