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Old 10-31-2011, 08:19 PM   #151
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Cheapin' out on WiFi

And another thing regarding the new hardware:

What's with charging $90 for a wireless adapter?

In addition to the over pricing, its another thing to plug in, more component clutter, more cables...

For $2 they could put a wifi chip in there.

They pulled out the over the air and SD tuners, etc.

Yes they added two tuners, but, still, it feels like we are being taken advantage of, and it just seems like crazy design...


(I am sure there will be those that say it is to encourage us to use Ethernet, and the new MoCA stuff, but still I have to believe the vast majority are using WiFi...)
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:25 PM   #152
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It's not the forced loading of info that's the problem. It's preventing user action until said info has loaded that's the problem. If the program info loaded in the background and didn't stop user input then there would be no noticeable performance problems, unless you wanted to look at said live data.
Yes, I will concede that to you. But it will still make for very annoying things delayed-popping up in places. I would prefer to not only have no delays, but also have everything appear at the same time. Not that I am demanding or anything
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:26 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by ig88 View Post
And another thing regarding the new hardware:

What's with charging $90 for a wireless adapter?

In addition to the over pricing, its another thing to plug in, more component clutter, more cables...

For $2 they could put a wifi chip in there.

They pulled out the over the air and SD tuners, etc.

Yes they added two tuners, but, still, it feels like we are being taken advantage of, and it just seems like crazy design...


(I am sure there will be those that say it is to encourage us to use Ethernet, and the new MoCA stuff, but still I have to believe the vast majority are using WiFi...)
It's really a media Bridge that works with the TiVo. The money would be better spent getting another type of media bridge that can also work with several devices. I use the Dlink DAP1522 units. They are under $70 now and can be used as an access point or a bridge(I use several in AP mode and several in Bridge mode) It has gigabit ports and with a device like a laptop with gigabit ethernet I have no problem getting 100Mb/s+ speeds. When the Premiere is plugged into it, speeds are identical to connecting to a wired network.

Anyway the point is there are much better and more practical options than the wireless N adapter that TiVo sells.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:25 PM   #154
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It's really a media Bridge that works with the TiVo. The money would be better spent getting another type of media bridge that can also work with several devices. I use the Dlink DAP1522 units. They are under $70 now and can be used as an access point or a bridge(I use several in AP mode and several in Bridge mode)
I admit I don't know if they're as fast as the one you're talking about, but there are other routers way cheaper than that that can be used as bridges. Unfortunately one of the buffalo ones I bought, I had to buy 2 (since it only worked as a bridge with its own unit), but at that time I was in a rush to get something that worked..

other times there are Fry's routers that are $20 that can have dd-wrt installed.
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:49 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by crxssi View Post
But it will still make for very annoying things delayed-popping up in places. I would prefer to not only have no delays, but also have everything appear at the same time.
Here's the thing - in addition to slowing down the interface, the salt in the wound is that I don't event want the crap in the first place!:
It is absolutely ZERO value to me, it's just garbage noise.

And in addition to slowing down the interface, consuming bandwidth on my home network and ISP, it also consumes screen realestate that could be used for what I really want – showing me more of MY content at once!
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:53 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
It's really a media Bridge that works with the TiVo. The money would be better spent getting another type of media bridge that can also work with several devices. I use the Dlink DAP1522 units. They are under $70 now and can be used as an access point or a bridge(I use several in AP mode and several in Bridge mode) It has gigabit ports and with a device like a laptop with gigabit ethernet I have no problem getting 100Mb/s+ speeds. When the Premiere is plugged into it, speeds are identical to connecting to a wired network.

Anyway the point is there are much better and more practical options than the wireless N adapter that TiVo sells.
I'm not sure you get it.

My mom and my neighbors aren't going to do that. Heck, I'm not even going to do it.

They want Wifi.
They want it built in.
They don't want to have to sit in the store after agonizing over whether they should buy a TiVo or not, and then be told, oh yeah, you have to buy this other $70 piece if you want to anything we just told you about.

Also, you kind of make my point for me when you indicate you can get an entire AP/Router/Bridge for the same $70 that TiVo wants for their wireless connectivity.
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Old 11-01-2011, 08:08 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by ig88 View Post
I'm not sure you get it.

My mom and my neighbors aren't going to do that. Heck, I'm not even going to do it.

They want Wifi.
They want it built in.
They don't want to have to sit in the store after agonizing over whether they should buy a TiVo or not, and then be told, oh yeah, you have to buy this other $70 piece if you want to anything we just told you about.

Also, you kind of make my point for me when you indicate you can get an entire AP/Router/Bridge for the same $70 that TiVo wants for their wireless connectivity.
If someone is agonizing over the decision of buying a TiVo, then I don't think they should even be buying one. Buying a TiVo should be an easy decision not an agonizing one.
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Old 11-01-2011, 12:35 PM   #158
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If someone is agonizing over the decision of buying a TiVo, then I don't think they should even be buying one. Buying a TiVo should be an easy decision not an agonizing one.
I would agree with that back in the S1 & S2 days. However the S3 & S4 value versus cable company boxes is slowly dwindling especially with addon devices like a Roku, BluRay/Xbox/PS3 that does content along with added features like a Roku, Apple/Google TV. There are too many devices a TiVo competes with to still have the absolutely abysmal performance the interface has now along with lacking features. If you want Jack & Jill to replace their cable box it has to be simple and affordable without hidden costs and thanks to clunky UI, cable cards/SDV, and addons like the WiFi dongles TiVo fails at both of those. Ever since I got my first S3 I've debated every time if I want to continue using a TiVo or go back to the cable company's horrible DVRs something happens.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:54 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by ig88 View Post
Here's the thing - in addition to slowing down the interface, the salt in the wound is that I don't event want the crap in the first place!:
It is absolutely ZERO value to me, it's just garbage noise.

And in addition to slowing down the interface, consuming bandwidth on my home network and ISP, it also consumes screen realestate that could be used for what I really want – showing me more of MY content at once!
You are just talking about the discovery bar on the top. Yes, that is the #1 hatred of most users. But I am talking about not only, but everything else that is live-queried. One such example is the show graphic. Another are the icons representing if it is available on Netflix, Hulu, whatever.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:57 PM   #160
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I'm not sure you get it.

My mom and my neighbors aren't going to do that. Heck, I'm not even going to do it.

They want Wifi.
They want it built in.
They don't want to have to sit in the store after agonizing over whether they should buy a TiVo or not, and then be told, oh yeah, you have to buy this other $70 piece if you want to anything we just told you about.

Also, you kind of make my point for me when you indicate you can get an entire AP/Router/Bridge for the same $70 that TiVo wants for their wireless connectivity.

I would never want to use WiFi with a TiVo. But I agree with you 100%. It would cost them maybe $5 to have added WiFi as a standard component. And probably 50% of people would benefit from it. It is too late for Series 4, so we are just complaining. But Series 5 should absolutely include WiFi G/N *AND* hard wired Gigabit (along with MoCo, or whatever it is called).
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:08 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by crxssi

I would never want to use WiFi with a TiVo. But I agree with you 100%. It would cost them maybe $5 to have added WiFi as a standard component. And probably 50% of people would benefit from it. It is too late for Series 4, so we are just complaining. But Series 5 should absolutely include WiFi G/N *AND* hard wired Gigabit (along with MoCo, or whatever it is called).
TiVo could take the view of RCN. The won't allow any streaming on a wireless connection. Only on Ethernet or MoCA. That way you eliminate all the issues that occur with the vast majority of people who don't know how to properly set up a WiFi network.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:44 PM   #162
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If someone is agonizing over the decision of buying a TiVo, then I don't think they should even be buying one. Buying a TiVo should be an easy decision not an agonizing one.
Proof you don't get it. (although I was exaggerating with the word agonizing - the point I was trying to make was better made by brentil, people who "aren't sure if they should buy this TiVo thing that they've been hearing about, and how is it better than my cable box")

If TiVo wants to stay in business, and everybody knows they are on the ropes, they need to sell to more than just geeks.

Ps, my mom does have one, after years of hearing me talk about it, and she absolutely loves it. Of course I set the wifi up for her.

But the point is, why not include a wifi chip to make it easier for people to make that it over that purchasing decision hurdle, it would be cheap for TiVo to do, regardless if some people want to or can jigger up a 3rd party router on he device.

To say nothing of overcharging for the adapter...
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:58 PM   #163
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TiVo could take the view of RCN. The won't allow any streaming on a wireless connection. Only on Ethernet or MoCA. That way you eliminate all the issues that occur with the vast majority of people who don't know how to properly set up a WiFi network.
Good point. In fact, I was thinking that myself. Seems "mean" since a good connection can be fine, but I can certainly understand the support issues (since I have to support a lot of users every day, myself).
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:21 PM   #164
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I would never want to use WiFi with a TiVo.
I streamed netflix over a WiFi bridge... Seemed to work fine.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:50 PM   #165
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I would never want to use WiFi with a TiVo. But I agree with you 100%.
You are agreeing with me, so I am not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you too: wired offers significantly better performance - especially if you do a lot of high-end things (that many "Jack and Jills" aren't going to do) and are probably relatively geeky (I mean that as a compliment).

But what many of us geeks in these forums forget about are the people who buy (or are thinking of buying) tiVos that would NEVER be part of a online forum discussing the performance characteristics of a week-old product release!
The vast majority of people just buy stuff and fumble through it.

And for that group of people wifi can be totally useful for all of the things that they would do:

I transfer shows between two of my TiVos all the time over wifi and it works great. I can watch the show in real time (essentially streaming) and it is typically transferring fast enough to allow fast forwarding the commercials.

Wifi is perfectly adequate for viewing family photos, music, etc from the family computer.

Wifi is perfectly adequate for downloading video podcasts.

It is even acceptable for downloading a movie over Amazon Unboxed, although you have to plan a head for that, it is a slow process – not sure much of that is wifi vs other things though.

Having wifi built in is cheap for TiVo to do, simplifies the buying and installation process, offers great added value, and let's face it, helps keep it competitive.

Also many people (renters) can't really run Ethernet through their homes.

TVs, iPods, BluRay players – not to mention competitive set top boxes– are all coming with wifi built in today.

I just don't get why a high-end TiVo box isn't - after the 3-4 hardware revision (depending on how you count).
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:54 PM   #166
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I streamed netflix over a WiFi bridge... Seemed to work fine.
Streaming H.264 720P Netflix is not at all the same as trying to stream Mpeg2 1080i, which is probably 10 times as much data...
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:56 PM   #167
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Streaming H.264 720P Netflix is not at all the same as trying to stream Mpeg2 1080i, which is probably 10 times as much data...
Right. Agreed.

But what are the vast majority of (non-geek) people streaming today?
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Old 11-03-2011, 03:13 AM   #168
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Right. Agreed.

But what are the vast majority of (non-geek) people streaming today?
95% of elite buyers ARE geeks though!!!!! So it doesn't really matter to much what the other 5% (non-geeks) are streaming.

TGC
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Old 11-03-2011, 03:16 AM   #169
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If one spends $500 for hardware on an elite DVR then really I wonder why they don't use MOCA or even Ethernet??? My house cam wired for Ethernet as well as MOCA.

Tgc
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:49 AM   #170
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TiVo officially (sort of) confirms that 2nd core is enabled on the Elite and will be enabled on the rest of the Series 4 platform.


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Old 11-18-2011, 08:14 AM   #171
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TiVo non-Elite users are saying 14.9 is rolling out to their devices as of last night. I didn't get it so I'll try again tonight. If it hasn't already gotten it and rebooted itself I'll do some benchmarks using a stopwatch to see how long various items take before and after.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:12 PM   #172
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Pre 14.9 benchmarks. All tests are done 3 times and any items related to caching are ignored and outliers are ignored too.
  • TiVo: Premiere (746)
  • Software: 14.8c-01-3-746
  • Flash: 14-8-mr/2011.02.24-0601
  • HDUI: 1-8/2011.04.08-1413
  • Boot Time: 7.5 m
  • Menu up/down transition: 3s
  • Load Folder: 3s
  • Load Folder Info: 3s
  • Load Settings: 3s
  • Load Top Web Items: 3s
  • Load Netflix: 10s
  • Delete File: 4s
  • Delete Folder (10 items): 13s
  • TiVo Button from Live TV: 3s
  • TiVo Button to My Shows: 4s
  • Guide Load from Live TV: 1s
  • Live TV from TiVo Central: 3s
  • Music & Photos|Showcases & Extras|Find TV (first load): 4s
  • Add Season Pass: 5s~11s
  • Remove Season Pass: 7s
  • Move Season Pass (bottom to top with 60 season passes): 1m
  • Amazon Video Load: 4s
  • YouTube Load: 7s
  • Search (terminator): 3s
  • Search Item Details (The Terminator): 3s
  • Search Item Load (The Terminator): 6s [1st] 5s [avg]
  • Search Item Cast (The Terminator): 6s [1st] 2s [avg]
  • Search Item Crew (The Terminator): 3s [1st] 2s [avg]
  • Search Item If You Like (The Terminator): 5s [1st] 3s [avg]
  • Search Item Bonus Features (The Terminator): 7s
  • Load Details from My Shows: 4s
  • Connecting - Preparing: 12.5m

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Old 11-19-2011, 07:56 AM   #173
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Your time to Live TV from TiVo central will be one second or less if it is the same resolution or if you only run one output resolution .

I've seen folder deletion for large ones vary wildly from a few seconds to around the time you posted.

When I delete a single file that always takes a split second, basically instantly. But I always use the clear button when deleting one file.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:15 AM   #174
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I've done every test at least 3 times and the times listed are my average #s. Which is what's important is my #s as those will be what I compare versus my own updated numbers to then get a % performance increase value.
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:03 PM   #175
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brentil, I don't see an item related to pushing into program details from My Shows. That to me was one of the most laggard and frustratingly slow operations with HD UI My Shows since it takes on the order of 5+ seconds with HDUI from what I recall vs ~ 1 second with SDUI. Even if the HDUI performance doubles because of the 2nd core (highly unlikely) it would still be too slow for me. The delays I believe are mostly because of the internet requirement, not because HDUI is using flash, so I don't think enabling a 2nd core will do much to improve the laggy HDUI.
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:59 PM   #176
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I've done every test at least 3 times and the times listed are my average #s. Which is what's important is my #s as those will be what I compare versus my own updated numbers to then get a % performance increase value.
Makes sense. Although like arronwt said, TC to live tv is most likely your tv switching resolutions. There's no way TiVo can speed that up. However, when you test again, you have to make sure the channel on your active tuner is the same resolution as your previous test or it will not be accurate.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:39 PM   #177
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brentil, I don't see an item related to pushing into program details from My Shows. That to me was one of the most laggard and frustratingly slow operations with HD UI My Shows since it takes on the order of 5+ seconds with HDUI from what I recall vs ~ 1 second with SDUI. Even if the HDUI performance doubles because of the 2nd core (highly unlikely) it would still be too slow for me. The delays I believe are mostly because of the internet requirement, not because HDUI is using flash, so I don't think enabling a 2nd core will do much to improve the laggy HDUI.
Can you give me a step by step of what you want tested and I'll add it to the list.


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Makes sense. Although like arronwt said, TC to live tv is most likely your tv switching resolutions. There's no way TiVo can speed that up. However, when you test again, you have to make sure the channel on your active tuner is the same resolution as your previous test or it will not be accurate.
Benchmarking is not only to see if something got faster but to also make sure things did not get slower. Some of my tests like that are just to make sure it doesn't take longer. There's also the aspect of the UI needing to be redrawn so it might be a bit smoother now too.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:44 PM   #178
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Can you give me a step by step of what you want tested and I'll add it to the list.
Simply select a single show under My Shows (or inside a folder on My Shows page) and right click to see program details and count how long it takes for program details to show up.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:51 PM   #179
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Simply select a single show under My Shows (or inside a folder on My Shows page) and right click to see program details and count how long it takes for program details to show up.
Added, can't believe I forgot to do that one.
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:11 AM   #180
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Benchmarking is not only to see if something got faster but to also make sure things did not get slower. Some of my tests like that are just to make sure it doesn't take longer. There's also the aspect of the UI needing to be redrawn so it might be a bit smoother now too.
In that case, you need to do it on a channel where the resolution doesn't switch. Then you can test the software speed improvement of switching screens from TC to live tv. Otherwise, the variable of the tvs resolution switch which can vary makes your test not very useful.
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