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Old 10-14-2011, 01:04 PM   #121
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My collection of networked devices keeps growing since just about everything is IP based now. The largest percentage of networked devices I have are my cameras(ten).
All of my IP cameras are wireless, except one pesky one that just couldn't keep from dropping out (fortunately I had the house wired with cat5 when it was built). Recently I decided it was better to go back to the hardwired route with the security DVR and CCTV cameras. What are you using for a DVR with your IP cameras? I've seen a few hardware solutions for IP-DVRs, and a few Linux/Windows based programs, but have never evaluated them.

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multiple PCs/servers/NAS devices etc), the total goes up pretty quick. Too quick.
I'd expect you'd almost certainly be better off building one high performance server-class PC and using that than having a bunch of separate NAS and servers. It's one of the huge advantages of virtualization software like VMWare that you can run a number of virtual servers on one physical host. Allowed me a replace a whole room full of energy-gobbling PCs with one high performance efficient beast.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:32 PM   #122
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I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but one great feature on the S3's that has not been carried forward to any of the new systems is the title of the program(s) being recorded on the front display. I'll probably replace one of my S3's with an Elite, but I know I'll miss that feature.
Cable techs report that folks love clocks on their cable boxes and won't accept newer boxes without one.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:46 PM   #123
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Cable techs report that folks love clocks on their cable boxes and won't accept newer boxes without one.
I know it was the only feature I wish I had still when I finally got rid of my last Cable DVR.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:44 PM   #124
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All of my IP cameras are wireless, except one pesky one that just couldn't keep from dropping out (fortunately I had the house wired with cat5 when it was built). Recently I decided it was better to go back to the hardwired route with the security DVR and CCTV cameras. What are you using for a DVR with your IP cameras? I've seen a few hardware solutions for IP-DVRs, and a few Linux/Windows based programs, but have never evaluated them.



I'd expect you'd almost certainly be better off building one high performance server-class PC and using that than having a bunch of separate NAS and servers. It's one of the huge advantages of virtualization software like VMWare that you can run a number of virtual servers on one physical host. Allowed me a replace a whole room full of energy-gobbling PCs with one high performance efficient beast.
I'm using Blue Iris software for when I want to record the video. Otherwise I just have the IP cameras email the photos when they detect movement or heat. Only two of them have built in wireless. Most of the others are connected to Dlink DAP1522 units in wireless Bridge mode.

For the storage servers I mainly use a WHS with 56TB and an unRAID with 32TB. The WHS has worked well for the last three years(I had an HP EX470 and then an EX490, both upgraded) and the unRAID I've been using since the early part of this year. I've been extremely pleased with that for storage.

I would love to do virtualization at some point.
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:11 PM   #125
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I know it was the only feature I wish I had still when I finally got rid of my last Cable DVR.
My remote has the time on it, it is a Harmony 880, you might want to look at a harmony remote, if that maters to you.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:33 PM   #126
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You want a clock?
Select, play, select, 9, enter

And you've got a clock I'm the bottom right corner of the tv screen.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:42 PM   #127
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The clock comment was just a joke actually, pointing out that the only good thing about the cable company's DVR was that it had a physical clock on it.
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:57 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by mwecksell View Post
You want a clock?
Select, play, select, 9, enter select

And you've got a clock I'm the bottom right corner of the tv screen.
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:57 PM   #129
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The clock comment was just a joke actually, pointing out that the only good thing about the cable company's DVR was that it had a physical clock on it.
That would be at the top of my list of bad things. And then the clock is usually huge and bright. If there is going to be one, I would rather it be small, like on the S3 boxes.
Otherwise one button press and it pops up on my TiVo, TV or other devices. Or I can look at my Harmony remote. There has never been any shortage of clocks around for me. AT least not since having VCRs around since the mid 80's.
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:05 PM   #130
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Clock - you mean that flashing 12:00 on my folks VCR.
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #131
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So are the menus faster?

OK I have agonizingly read this thread and the "Initial impressions and details of the TiVo Premiere Elite" - both very long threads.

Good information in both of them - and I don't want to discount that.

But after all the very high-end analysis of linux build numbers and chip manufacturer part numbers, I can't really find any real information (despite the significantly faster boot time) to one simple fact:

Does the Tivo Premier Elite allow for faster navigation of HD menus?
Are the menus fast enough enough so that there is no lag/delay in clicks when navigating the menus (using HD menus)?

As I typed this post I did the following:
a) from a paused show, hit the TiVo button to return to Tivo Central: pause, Blue screen, PIP draws black, then fills in, then menu comes up, TiVo ding, menus draw, advertising video strip appears (it happens in a second or two, but it is slow enough to see each item as a separate step)

b) click My Shows: screen blue, my shows list populates, one line at a time, advertising video crap strip repopulates, highlighted show detail loads in two steps: image and data (again not SUPER slow, but this should be instant - at least the show listing part of it)

c) channel down button to page down my show listing: TiVo ding, pause, update list, update selected item detail - this can be painfully slow if you want to "quickly" scroll from the top of a list four screenfuls down to get to the bottom - I want to be able to click channel down three times and be transported immediately to the bottom of my list - It feels like each with click there is a small disruption in the space/time continuum where everything momentarily freezes, and then returns to real time.

d) use the up/down arrow to navigate up and down one listing at a time - I want to click that clicker and move - instead I have to click slow enough so that the navigation can respond to each click individually

(these results are worse if the data hasn't recently been accessed/cached)

e) I remember when hitting the FF button three times was instantaneous. Now it is so slow that sometimes I only hear one or two TiVo dings in response, and I often find myself mis-triggering: hitting FF three times but TiVo only picks up two, and then occasionally because this happens so often, I think it has happened, hit FF again, TiVo catches up and interrupts a "fourth" FF hit and send the TiVo into Play mode - ugh.


This stuff should be getting better with new HD SW releases, not worse!

Of course editing season passes and whatnot can be downright painful, but at least I am not doing that daily.

I just wish the menu navigation system was more responsive - it seems with the pricing we pay ($900 for HW and service), and what today's hardware should be capable of, it should be better.

I used to scorn family/friends who used the cheap DVR provided my cable/satellite systems, but today these systems navigation response times are much faster than TiVos.


I have been a long time TiVo user - since the very first model, and it seems that each new hardware rev slows the interface down (along with adding a bunch of noise).
Yes, I know that I can turn the HD menus off, but there are some new features I like, so its a blessing and a curse.


So, sorry for the long winded post, but I'd really like to see the basic question answered:
Does the Tivo Premier Elite allow for faster navigation of HD menus?
Are the menus fast enough enough so that there is no lag/delay in clicks when navigating the menus (using HD menus)?
How about somebody post a YouTube side-by-side comparison?
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Old 10-29-2011, 05:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by ig88 View Post
OK I have agonizingly read this thread and the "Initial impressions and details of the TiVo Premiere Elite" - both very long threads.

Good information in both of them - and I don't want to discount that.

But after all the very high-end analysis of linux build numbers and chip manufacturer part numbers, I can't really find any real information (despite the significantly faster boot time) to one simple fact:

Does the Tivo Premier Elite allow for faster navigation of HD menus?
Are the menus fast enough enough so that there is no lag/delay in clicks when navigating the menus (using HD menus)?

As I typed this post I did the following:
a) from a paused show, hit the TiVo button to return to Tivo Central: pause, Blue screen, PIP draws black, then fills in, then menu comes up, TiVo ding, menus draw, advertising video strip appears (it happens in a second or two, but it is slow enough to see each item as a separate step)

b) click My Shows: screen blue, my shows list populates, one line at a time, advertising video crap strip repopulates, highlighted show detail loads in two steps: image and data (again not SUPER slow, but this should be instant - at least the show listing part of it)

c) channel down button to page down my show listing: TiVo ding, pause, update list, update selected item detail - this can be painfully slow if you want to "quickly" scroll from the top of a list four screenfuls down to get to the bottom - I want to be able to click channel down three times and be transported immediately to the bottom of my list - It feels like each with click there is a small disruption in the space/time continuum where everything momentarily freezes, and then returns to real time.

d) use the up/down arrow to navigate up and down one listing at a time - I want to click that clicker and move - instead I have to click slow enough so that the navigation can respond to each click individually

(these results are worse if the data hasn't recently been accessed/cached)

e) I remember when hitting the FF button three times was instantaneous. Now it is so slow that sometimes I only hear one or two TiVo dings in response, and I often find myself mis-triggering: hitting FF three times but TiVo only picks up two, and then occasionally because this happens so often, I think it has happened, hit FF again, TiVo catches up and interrupts a "fourth" FF hit and send the TiVo into Play mode - ugh.


This stuff should be getting better with new HD SW releases, not worse!

Of course editing season passes and whatnot can be downright painful, but at least I am not doing that daily.

I just wish the menu navigation system was more responsive - it seems with the pricing we pay ($900 for HW and service), and what today's hardware should be capable of, it should be better.

I used to scorn family/friends who used the cheap DVR provided my cable/satellite systems, but today these systems navigation response times are much faster than TiVos.


I have been a long time TiVo user - since the very first model, and it seems that each new hardware rev slows the interface down (along with adding a bunch of noise).
Yes, I know that I can turn the HD menus off, but there are some new features I like, so its a blessing and a curse.


So, sorry for the long winded post, but I'd really like to see the basic question answered:
Does the Tivo Premier Elite allow for faster navigation of HD menus?
Are the menus fast enough enough so that there is no lag/delay in clicks when navigating the menus (using HD menus)?
How about somebody post a YouTube side-by-side comparison?
Its been on my list of things to do. I'm surprised this hasn't been done by another user already. The performance improvements with the 14.9 software is noticeable but TiVo still has a long way to go before its as you describe.

I will link you to a youtube video showing some of the things you've asked about sometime tonight depending on how long it takes to upload.

~Sam
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:06 PM   #133
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I will link you to a youtube video showing some of the things you've asked about sometime tonight depending on how long it takes to upload.
Much appreciated.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:55 PM   #134
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This stuff should be getting better with new HD SW releases, not worse!
Well, just keep in mind that the Elite is not really a "new HD release", it is the same CPU, memory, etc. Just a few new addons. What *is* new is the next release of the firmware/OS....

Quote:
So, sorry for the long winded post, but I'd really like to see the basic question answered:
Does the Tivo Premier Elite allow for faster navigation of HD menus?
Are the menus fast enough enough so that there is no lag/delay in clicks when navigating the menus (using HD menus)?
How about somebody post a YouTube side-by-side comparison?
I would LOVE to see this too. The performance of the non-Elite Premieres will be identical to the Elite, once they get the same software update. But based on what I have read so far, I think you will be very disappointed (just like I will be). There are several basic design flaws in the HDUI, and they are not corrected in the next software release. I personally believe they will never be corrected either. My prediction is that when TiVo does ever come out with the next real model change, they will retain the exact same flaws and just try to get around them by throwing a lot more CPU at the problem.

What I expect from the Premiere is that the performance will go from a D to a D+ or maybe a C-. If you are expecting a B or A, well "get real". Still, ANY performance improvement is a good thing...
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #135
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There are several basic design flaws in the HDUI
Like building it on Flash?
Like not having any way to turn off the advertising crap images at the top of the screen, that takes up 1/3 of the screen realestate, that could be used to list more of my shows, because I am presumably too dumb to find new content I like?

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My prediction is that when TiVo does ever come out with the next real model change, they will retain the exact same flaws and just try to get around them by throwing a lot more CPU at the problem.
Probably right there.
Just so few smart coders and decision makers out there today.

But, I guess I don't care at this point, if the end result means a faster UI.

Then again, for the $900 I pay, that hardware should already be there.

It's just too bad — there is so much potential in TiVo, and there really isn't anything better out there at the moment.

Maybe Apple will finish Steve's last project and show everyone how it is done (unfortunately the Apple model would probably not be based on a DVR, and making the content deals with everyone just seems so out of reach....none of the studios seem to want to give anybody decent content)
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #136
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Its been on my list of things to do. I'm surprised this hasn't been done by another user already. The performance improvements with the 14.9 software is noticeable but TiVo still has a long way to go before its as you describe.

I will link you to a youtube video showing some of the things you've asked about sometime tonight depending on how long it takes to upload.

~Sam
Ill be looking forward to that too!
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:40 PM   #137
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Like building it on Flash?
Like not having any way to turn off the advertising crap images at the top of the screen, that takes up 1/3 of the screen realestate, that could be used to list more of my shows, because I am presumably too dumb to find new content I like?

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Old 10-30-2011, 11:03 AM   #138
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Elite Video

Sorry for the lengthy video. I didn't have time to edit it or narrate it but it should give you a good sense of the HDUI performance which is improved over the Premiere running 14.8. Please let me know if there is anything else you would want to see and I can take a video of that as well.

http://youtu.be/MbNQdP9wf90

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Old 10-30-2011, 11:23 AM   #139
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It seems to run about the same as my current TiVo...
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Old 10-30-2011, 01:36 PM   #140
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It seems to run about the same as my current TiVo...
Yeah, it is hard to tell, but doesn't seem that much different. Without knowing exactly when the buttons are being pressed, it is hard to judge lag/response time. There was definitely an improvement when he pressed page down in the listing of shows. Still a tremendous "Please wait" on Netflix launching.
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Old 10-30-2011, 04:52 PM   #141
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Sorry for the lengthy video. I didn't have time to edit it or narrate it but it should give you a good sense of the HDUI performance which is improved over the Premiere running 14.8.
Really appreciate you posting this.

I have to say, it doesn't really look faster than my Premiere.

I am surprised at all of the earlier reports of faster performance on the Elite. Other than the boot time, I'm just not seeing it.

I can't believe they made the decision to build the Premiere interface on Flash...

You know what, I'll even give them that one. Maybe it makes it easier to find developers (not necessarily good ones), and maybe it makes it easier to hook into Internet content.

But, once they made that decision, they should have paired it with the decision to give it hardware (and caching) that can make the interface smooth.

I might just sit this one out and wait for the Series 5...

In 2011 (almost 2012) there is just NO excuse for lag in a menu-driven interface.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:39 PM   #142
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Really appreciate you posting this.

I have to say, it doesn't really look faster than my Premiere.

I am surprised at all of the earlier reports of faster performance on the Elite. Other than the boot time, I'm just not seeing it.

I can't believe they made the decision to build the Premiere interface on Flash...

You know what, I'll even give them that one. Maybe it makes it easier to find developers (not necessarily good ones), and maybe it makes it easier to hook into Internet content.

But, once they made that decision, they should have paired it with the decision to give it hardware (and caching) that can make the interface smooth.

I might just sit this one out and wait for the Series 5...

In 2011 (almost 2012) there is just NO excuse for lag in a menu-driven interface.
I will try to create a side-by-side comparison this week. I think there are some subtle speed improvements. I really notice it when I bounce between the Premiere in my bedroom and the Elite in the living room.

As far as the ongoing Flash debate I think TiVo understands the root cause of the sluggishness and it will be significantly improved once they release the 16.x software. I look at this recent VM release as an example of the kind of speed that we can expect on the new release --> http://vmhd.blogspot.com/2011/10/new...ion-video.html
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Old 10-30-2011, 08:21 PM   #143
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I really notice it when I bounce between the Premiere in my bedroom and the Elite in the living room.
Fair enough.

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As far as the ongoing Flash debate I think TiVo understands the root cause of the sluggishness and it will be significantly improved once they release the 16.x software. I look at this recent VM release as an example of the kind of speed that we can expect on the new release
Wow. No that's what I'm talking about!

Thanks for sharing!

Some really significant improvements there - still some pauses, but at least not on the main, constantly-used menus.

I wonder how the hardware of that box compares to ours - although the fact that they are highlighting the speed improvements implies that speed was an issue on their hardware in previous releases.

Strange that a partner gets newer software than their (supposed/assumed) core customers? (out of country even - seems downright un-American!)

PS I love how he pronounces router as "rooter".
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:40 AM   #144
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Fair enough.


Wow. No that's what I'm talking about!

Thanks for sharing!

Some really significant improvements there - still some pauses, but at least not on the main, constantly-used menus.

I wonder how the hardware of that box compares to ours - although the fact that they are highlighting the speed improvements implies that speed was an issue on their hardware in previous releases.

Strange that a partner gets newer software than their (supposed/assumed) core customers? (out of country even - seems downright un-American!)

PS I love how he pronounces router as "rooter".
I haven't seen a lot of discussion on the hardware attributes of the Cisco 8485DVB set-top box being used by Virgin Media and Ono. It appears that the processor is not significantly faster than the processor in the Premiere platform. Cisco data sheets indicate that the processor is a, "Powerful 32-bit RISC Processor" enabling "Fast CPU (300 MHz) delivers quick tuning changes and on-screen response times." I believe the Premiere is using a 400 MHz processor.

I think we can be optimistic that the performance improvements that we see in the VMED 15.2 video can be expected in the US boxes when 16.x is released. RCN alluded to significantly improved performance on the Premiere in 2012 in a discussion on dslreports.

As far as "core customers", Virgin Media can be considered TiVo's flagship MSO customer in Europe and probably the world. I think their happiness is TiVo's number one concern especially since they are now installing about 1 DVR per minute to VMED customers.

~Sam
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:14 PM   #145
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I really think the v16 software will be where we finally see improvements. The enabling of the multiple cores finally will allow a lot of performance tuning in the various aspects of the TiVo OS to run better on it. As well if an updated version of Flash was used like AIR or something else it would allow a lot more functionality as well as multi-threading of applications built within it.

The v14.9 is the first significant update in a while for the S4 devices and I really believe this is because they've been busy working on the VM devices and the future v16 interface.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:17 PM   #146
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:17 PM   #147
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I really think the v16 software will be where we finally see improvements. The enabling of the multiple cores finally will allow a lot of performance tuning in the various aspects of the TiVo OS to run better on it. As well if an updated version of Flash was used like AIR or something else it would allow a lot more functionality as well as multi-threading of applications built within it.

The v14.9 is the first significant update in a while for the S4 devices and I really believe this is because they've been busy working on the VM devices and the future v16 interface.
I agree with what you said, except I want to still point out that in the video of the VM machine, the exact same UI design flaws were present- forcing the loading of live Internet-queried information every time you try to display or scroll through certain stuff. Unfortunately, no amount of CPU or threading will remove those delays. It can be "better", but I fear it will never be as responsive as the SDUI is (because the SDUI does NOT load anything live).
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:27 PM   #148
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I agree with what you said, except I want to still point out that in the video of the VM machine, the exact same UI design flaws were present- forcing the loading of live Internet-queried information every time you try to display or scroll through certain stuff. Unfortunately, no amount of CPU or threading will remove those delays. It can be "better", but I fear it will never be as responsive as the SDUI is (because the SDUI does NOT load anything live).
Agreed. No amount of CPU power can compensate for an idiotic design flaw.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:02 PM   #149
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I agree with what you said, except I want to still point out that in the video of the VM machine, the exact same UI design flaws were present- forcing the loading of live Internet-queried information every time you try to display or scroll through certain stuff. Unfortunately, no amount of CPU or threading will remove those delays. It can be "better", but I fear it will never be as responsive as the SDUI is (because the SDUI does NOT load anything live).
It's not the forced loading of info that's the problem. It's preventing user action until said info has loaded that's the problem. If the program info loaded in the background and didn't stop user input then there would be no noticeable performance problems, unless you wanted to look at said live data.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:11 PM   #150
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It's not the forced loading of info that's the problem. It's preventing user action until said info has loaded that's the problem.
Right.

Although I can't off-hand think of any software that has info loaded (even extra-background stuff) that doesn't still get in the way and slow down user responsiveness. Maybe web browsers, but even then, not always.
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