TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > TiVo TV Talk > Now Playing - TV Show Talk
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2012, 10:30 AM   #151
scooterboy
Wookin' Pa Nub
 
scooterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: East Kingston, NH USA
Posts: 27,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Man View Post
In other words, gastrof, to answer your question would take a post as long as the entire thread!
At least I wasn't too lazy to type all that.



__________________
Proofreading: it's a good thing.

Every time I'm drying off from a shower I think of my childhood buddy's father. - mcthumber
scooterboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 01:09 PM   #152
JYoung
Series 3
 
JYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 24,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post




Here's a link that will answer your questions.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=475879

OK, being a little less of an ass, here's a post I made after I got a good understanding of what they're doing.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...34#post8891034
In truth, posts #9 and #11 gives him the basic stuff.
But I guess he couldn't be bothered to read that far.
__________________
Member of the TiVoShanan Fan Club!

"I aim to misbehave"
JYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 02:47 PM   #153
JYoung
Series 3
 
JYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 24,328
First review in on the sampler set.

Some very interesting screenshots in there.
__________________
Member of the TiVoShanan Fan Club!

"I aim to misbehave"
JYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 03:04 PM   #154
mrdbdigital
The TBS Archives
 
mrdbdigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Moultrie, GA
Posts: 2,344
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by JYoung View Post
First review in on the sampler set.

Some very interesting screenshots in there.
It's too bad that gastrof won't have time to read this, since it confirms they went back to the original film elements for the effects.
mrdbdigital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 03:28 PM   #155
doom1701
I blue myself!
 
doom1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 24,120
HFC. That's beautiful.


__________________
Tim
doom1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 04:49 PM   #156
Fish Man
Phish Food
 
Fish Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 0.7 miles from the Abita brewery!
Posts: 8,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by JYoung View Post
First review in on the sampler set.

Some very interesting screenshots in there.
Very nice.

Mine's been on pre-order for some time now.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Fish Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 06:20 PM   #157
vertigo235
Registered User
 
vertigo235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 12,776
Must admit that does look really incredible.
__________________
vertigo235 xbox live and PSN ID = IamVertigo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vertigo235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 12:02 AM   #158
JYoung
Series 3
 
JYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 24,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdbdigital View Post
....since it confirms they went back to the original film elements for the effects.

Yeeeaaahhhh, about that......

I was looking at this shot from Sins of the Father



I'm sure that this a new effects shot, replacing the opening shot (which itself is reused from A Matter of Honor and a recomposite of a shot from The Search for Spock).

And I would guess that they used new CGI for this.

The Digital Bits weighs in on the sampler.

Although this was of some concern:
Quote:
Concern has also been raised that a few shots in the other episode included here, Sins of the Father, are in upconverted standard-definition because a little bit of the original camera negative couldn't be found. But fans shouldn't fret. The shots are very quick - about 12 second of footage in all, of Dr. Crusher and Riker speaking and of a computer screen. They're so quick in fact, and so quickly return to HD, that they really aren't that troubling. And there is always the hope that, as the remastering effort continues, the missing film footage will still be found.
I hope that there isn't a lot of missing footage.
__________________
Member of the TiVoShanan Fan Club!

"I aim to misbehave"

Last edited by JYoung : 01-19-2012 at 12:13 AM.
JYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 07:03 AM   #159
doom1701
I blue myself!
 
doom1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 24,120
I think that shot is legit film footage. Like you said, the original shot is from Star Trek III (and it always bugged me that it got the scale wrong--a bird of prey should have been a tiny ship compared to the Galaxy class). The Enterprise-D portion of the shot has all the markings of the 6ft model--less hull texture than the later 4ft, no window lighting on the sensor rails, and no pronounced lifeboats. Also, as it goes into the distance, the front of the saucer gets a little fuzzy--something less likely to happen with CGI.

I think that shot is a great example of how good the original FX passes are. Since I've always been more of a purist and I love the use of real models in SciFi, I'm getting really jazzed about this release.
__________________
Tim
doom1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 08:17 AM   #160
Fish Man
Phish Food
 
Fish Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 0.7 miles from the Abita brewery!
Posts: 8,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post
I think that shot is legit film footage. Like you said, the original shot is from Star Trek III (and it always bugged me that it got the scale wrong--a bird of prey should have been a tiny ship compared to the Galaxy class). The Enterprise-D portion of the shot has all the markings of the 6ft model--less hull texture than the later 4ft, no window lighting on the sensor rails, and no pronounced lifeboats. Also, as it goes into the distance, the front of the saucer gets a little fuzzy--something less likely to happen with CGI.

I think that shot is a great example of how good the original FX passes are. Since I've always been more of a purist and I love the use of real models in SciFi, I'm getting really jazzed about this release.
Agreed, that shot is cinema quality model work (albeit with the scale error), not CGI. Shows what can be done when they've got the 35mm negatives to work from.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Fish Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 03:12 PM   #161
JYoung
Series 3
 
JYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 24,328
I dunno.

Take a look at the original effect shot:



Now, the new shot:




As you can see, the Bird of Prey has been clearly replaced. No doubt with a CGI model.

The angle of the Enterprise is also different and I don't remember the 6 foot model being filmed from that exact angle.
__________________
Member of the TiVoShanan Fan Club!

"I aim to misbehave"
JYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 03:29 PM   #162
doom1701
I blue myself!
 
doom1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 24,120
Interesting. Those are different shots, and the Enterprise shot has different windows lit. I'd just be surprised if they put that kind of detail into a CGI model--if you look close at some of the windows, there's little artifacts that I assume are internal lighting hardware.
__________________
Tim
doom1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 03:38 PM   #163
Bryanmc
I'm normal.
 
Bryanmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Richardson, TX 75082
Posts: 38,515
Now that I've completed my STTNG viewing, I realized how little the Enterprise actually does in space. There's probably a total of 10-12 different shots used throughout the entire series (with some notable exceptions like exploding the ship or the future 1701-D).

So I wonder how much trouble it really would be, once they've got a good CG Enterprise made, to replace the shots with CG.
Bryanmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 03:57 PM   #164
nataylor
Curiously Strong
 
nataylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 23,282
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanmc View Post
So I wonder how much trouble it really would be, once they've got a good CG Enterprise made, to replace the shots with CG.
Not hard at all. They did it for the original Star Trek series.
__________________
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
iOS Game Center: nataylor
nataylor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #165
dtivouser
Registered User
 
dtivouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,723
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanmc View Post
Now that I've completed my STTNG viewing, I realized how little the Enterprise actually does in space.
Yeah even the HD version looks like a cruise ship to me... that bird of prey looks great though!
dtivouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 04:47 PM   #166
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 30,535
Quote:
Originally Posted by JYoung View Post
I dunno.

Take a look at the original effect shot:



Now, the new shot:




As you can see, the Bird of Prey has been clearly replaced. No doubt with a CGI model.

The angle of the Enterprise is also different and I don't remember the 6 foot model being filmed from that exact angle.
If that is indeed the same shot, those are two completely different Enterprises. Just compare which lights in the rooms are on/off... totally different pattern between the two.
LoadStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 05:30 PM   #167
Bryanmc
I'm normal.
 
Bryanmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Richardson, TX 75082
Posts: 38,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataylor View Post
Not hard at all. They did it for the original Star Trek series.
Of course in the original series I think they only had 3 different Enterprise space shots to recreate.
Bryanmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #168
vertigo235
Registered User
 
vertigo235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 12,776
Those are totally different FX shots, maybe they did recreate it in CGI.
__________________
vertigo235 xbox live and PSN ID = IamVertigo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vertigo235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 06:05 PM   #169
vertigo235
Registered User
 
vertigo235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 12,776
I vote for new CGI, they even got the shadowing consistent with the enterprise and the bird of prey, there is no evident shadowing on the old shot.
__________________
vertigo235 xbox live and PSN ID = IamVertigo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vertigo235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 08:45 PM   #170
doom1701
I blue myself!
 
doom1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 24,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by JYoung View Post

The angle of the Enterprise is also different and I don't remember the 6 foot model being filmed from that exact angle.
I'm not sure about the angle being different, though. The angle looks identical to me--the newer shot is just pulled further back.
__________________
Tim
doom1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #171
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 31,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post
I'm not sure about the angle being different, though. The angle looks identical to me--the newer shot is just pulled further back.
Yeah, if both ships are moving those two shots could be just a few frames apart...
__________________
“This is the moment of truth. Are you my friend, or are you some bloodsucking network vampire?”
“Why do I have to pick one or the other?”
Rob Helmerichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 10:22 PM   #172
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 30,535
When they said recompositing, I immediately thought they had stored film stock of the FX passes on the models... but I'm actually now thinking that it is indeed CGI.

(Wow. Who would've thought that we'd be in a world where they could generate CGI so good that you cannot tell whether it is real or from a computer?)

Edit: Hmm. Went back and looked at the "full size" image... I'm back to thinking it might actually be filmed FX footage, not CGI. If it is, I'm almost 100% positive that it isn't the same footage used in the episode. The Klingon ship is in a totally different angle, and as noted the lights that are on in the windows are in a different pattern from the original. IMO, there is way more detail seen on the "new" Enterprise than in the original, even more than could be attributed to simply the difference between SD and HD.

Wonder if they're mixing and matching, using FX film footage that happens to be somewhat close to the original?

Last edited by LoadStar : 01-19-2012 at 10:42 PM.
LoadStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 10:36 PM   #173
doom1701
I blue myself!
 
doom1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 24,120
I would just find it surprising that they could have been redoing FX with CGI all this time without leaks. During the TOS upgrades, there were updated still frames of FX shots released almost weekly.

I don't doubt that they may have augmented some shots with some CGI, but I'm willing to bet that's the exception, and not the rule.
__________________
Tim
doom1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 10:45 PM   #174
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 30,535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs View Post
Yeah, if both ships are moving those two shots could be just a few frames apart...
Going back to the episode, the shot is virtually motionless. It's the establishing shot at the very beginning of the episode "Sins of the Father," during which the Captain's Log is read. The only movement in the shot is stars moving by in the background. Both ships are completely static in the shot.
LoadStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 12:35 AM   #175
JYoung
Series 3
 
JYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 24,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post
Interesting. Those are different shots, and the Enterprise shot has different windows lit. I'd just be surprised if they put that kind of detail into a CGI model--if you look close at some of the windows, there's little artifacts that I assume are internal lighting hardware.
They built a pretty good CGI HD resolution Enterprise D for the Star Trek: Enterprise finale (although I haven't seen it in HD).

And CGI seems to get better every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post
I'm not sure about the angle being different, though. The angle looks identical to me--the newer shot is just pulled further back.
There's a bit of additional roll on the Enterprise in the new shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom1701 View Post
I would just find it surprising that they could have been redoing FX with CGI all this time without leaks. During the TOS upgrades, there were updated still frames of FX shots released almost weekly.

I don't doubt that they may have augmented some shots with some CGI, but I'm willing to bet that's the exception, and not the rule.
I suspect that this is the case as well.
For some reason, (maybe some film elements were damaged or unavailable or simply not up to snuff) they substituted this shot though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadStar View Post
Going back to the episode, the shot is virtually motionless. It's the establishing shot at the very beginning of the episode "Sins of the Father," during which the Captain's Log is read. The only movement in the shot is stars moving by in the background. Both ships are completely static in the shot.
There's actually a small amount of lateral movement on the Bird of Prey.

Reading over at trekmovie.com, I was amused by this quote by Marina Sirtis about the episode selection for the sampler.

Quote:
”I think they made a really nice choice of episodes, though I still can’t watch the pilot because I was really amazed that they let me keep my job after that. I describe my performance in that as ‘ Sophie’s Choice meets Star Trek’. It was just way too emotional. It was awful, and I thought for sure that I was going to be fired. Aside from that, I can watch the other two."

__________________
Member of the TiVoShanan Fan Club!

"I aim to misbehave"
JYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 08:44 AM   #176
Fish Man
Phish Food
 
Fish Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 0.7 miles from the Abita brewery!
Posts: 8,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadStar View Post
When they said recompositing, I immediately thought they had stored film stock of the FX passes on the models... but I'm actually now thinking that it is indeed CGI.

(Wow. Who would've thought that we'd be in a world where they could generate CGI so good that you cannot tell whether it is real or from a computer?)

Edit: Hmm. Went back and looked at the "full size" image... I'm back to thinking it might actually be filmed FX footage, not CGI. If it is, I'm almost 100% positive that it isn't the same footage used in the episode. The Klingon ship is in a totally different angle, and as noted the lights that are on in the windows are in a different pattern from the original. IMO, there is way more detail seen on the "new" Enterprise than in the original, even more than could be attributed to simply the difference between SD and HD.

Wonder if they're mixing and matching, using FX film footage that happens to be somewhat close to the original?
Totally agree with this.

I think it came from camera negatives of model work, but not the same ones used in the original scene of that episode.

As we have been discussing, in the original production of ST:TNG, they had a selection of stock shots of the Enterprise D (against a blue background), various alien ships (against a blue background), star fields, planets (against a blue background), etc. For any given shot, they selected the elements needed to create the shot and composited them together. When originally producing the series (on video, in SD), they used their "library" of components over and over, mixing and matching them in different ways for the different shots.

It makes sense to me that the people working on the new HD remastering have a library of camera negatives of the various above-mentioned elements. Since the same components of the space shots were used over and over and over again, those camera negatives aren't "tagged" to any particular episode. If anything, they're cateloged as "Enterprise front shots", "Enterprise rear shots", "Klingon bird of prey shots", Romulan ship shots", etc, etc. So, to re-create any particular shot, they go to the camera negative library of "space shots" and pick out components to re-create the final shot. They may not even be able to find the exact combination used in any given instance.

We already know that some non-effects shots are lost (camera negatives could not be located), and have to be upconverted from the video. Since there's little doubt that the components of the "space shots" were a hodge-podge library, it's likely some of them are lost too.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Fish Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 09:03 AM   #177
mrdbdigital
The TBS Archives
 
mrdbdigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Moultrie, GA
Posts: 2,344
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Man View Post
Totally agree with this.

I think it came from camera negatives of model work, but not the same ones used in the original scene of that episode.

As we have been discussing, in the original production of ST:TNG, they had a selection of stock shots of the Enterprise D (against a blue background), various alien ships (against a blue background), star fields, planets (against a blue background), etc. For any given shot, they selected the elements needed to create the shot and composited them together. When originally producing the series (on video, in SD), they used their "library" of components over and over, mixing and matching them in different ways for the different shots.

It makes sense to me that the people working on the new HD remastering have a library of camera negatives of the various above-mentioned elements. Since the same components of the space shots were used over and over and over again, those camera negatives aren't "tagged" to any particular episode. If anything, they're cateloged as "Enterprise front shots", "Enterprise rear shots", "Klingon bird of prey shots", Romulan ship shots", etc, etc. So, to re-create any particular shot, they go to the camera negative library of "space shots" and pick out components to re-create the final shot. They may not even be able to find the exact combination used in any given instance.

We already know that some non-effects shots are lost (camera negatives could not be located), and have to be upconverted from the video. Since there's little doubt that the components of the "space shots" were a hodge-podge library, it's likely some of them are lost too.
I agree with you. It's really amazing to go back years later and be able to find every little snippet of a former production. Things do have a habit of walking away in this business.
mrdbdigital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 02:55 PM   #178
Fish Man
Phish Food
 
Fish Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 0.7 miles from the Abita brewery!
Posts: 8,261
Well, after studying that shot of the Enterprise face to face with the Klingon ship even more, I've flopped back the other way.

I think it's an all new, entirely CGI shot, made for the remastered edition.

Here's why:

In the new shot, the apparent light source illuminating the two ships is absolutely consistent. It is perfect.

In the "new" shot, the main light source illuminating both ships appears to be to the right of the frame and somewhat forward of our perspective. The shadows on the two ships are absolutely consistent with respect to them being illuminated by a common light source. (A distant one, like the distance from the Sun to the earth, so that the rays are effectively parallel.)

In the original, the Enterprise appears to be lit by a light source in the same position as in the new shot (to the right of the frame and "forward" of our perspective), but the Klingon ship appears to be lit by a light source behind the camera (or, put another way, behind our perspective). Light seems to be hitting the Klingon ship directly from its front.

This inconsistent light source direction was a common problem throughout ST:TNG. Because, like I mentioned in my previous post, they had a library of stock shots of ships they would composite together. Often (more often than not) the light sources used to film the shots was not the same. They might have endeavored to get the light sources consistent for an original shot, but then they'd mix and match elements of previously done FX shots to make new shots, and voila, inconsistent lighting (like what we see in the "original" shot of the two ships).

So, IF they went to their library of camera negatives and re-composited a new shot of the Enterprise facing off against a Klingon ship, they did an incredible job of finding two shots with consistent light source directions.

Or, they could have done the easier thing: Make a CGI shot and get it exactly right. CGI excels at light sources. The light position(s) and intensity is simply a parameter in the rendering.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Fish Man : 01-20-2012 at 03:07 PM.
Fish Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 08:03 PM   #179
vertigo235
Registered User
 
vertigo235's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 12,776
That's essentially what I was trying to say in post 169, but I only tried to say it in one sentence.
__________________
vertigo235 xbox live and PSN ID = IamVertigo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
vertigo235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 08:47 PM   #180
DougF
Registered User
 
DougF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,697
I've read a couple of different articles this week that said there was some CGI touching up being done but for the most part the effects are from the original film elements
DougF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |