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Old 04-12-2016, 05:22 PM   #1
SoonerOrLater
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Tivo3 with external expander freezing/rebooting

Hello,
I have a lifetime Tivo3HD TCD652160, and an external WD DVR Expander.
It has its original internal drive, but I've already replaced the power supply once.

Recently, I've been experiencing a lot for freezing/rebooting while watching recorded shows. Sometimes, upon rebooting, the unit gets stuck in "Welcome Powering Up screen" or at the end of "A few more minutes" screen, in which case, I have to do a hard power-cycle to reboot again.

I've browsed through the forums here and I'm guessing it is the sign of a failing hard drive, but is there a way to tell whether it is the internal HD or the external Expander that is acting up?

Also, as I am planning to create a mirror image of my interna drive, I found a download of WinMFS Beta 9.3f, but I've seen something about MFS Live cd v1.4. What are the differences? Does it matter?
Is the procedure the same if it is the external Expander HD that is failing?

Thanks in advance!

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* TiVo HD DVR (652160) v11.0 /lifetime service
* External DVR Expander WD5000F032
* Motorola M-Card from Time Warner Cable (SoCal)
* Tivo Wireless G adapter
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Old 04-13-2016, 02:13 AM   #2
Captain_WD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerOrLater View Post
~snip~
Hey there

I'm sorry for the problems you are going through. This does sound like a HDD issue. What's the WD's Expander model number? Do you have access to the HDDs inside the devices? The most secure way is connecting them to a PC and running some diagnostic tools to check the drives' S.M.A.R.T. statuses. I would recommend doing this with tools from the manufacturer. For WD HDDs that would be WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic .

I'd first check if removing a drive from the device voids any warranty that it may have.

Captain_WD.

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Old 04-13-2016, 02:27 AM   #3
ThAbtO
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One way to figure which drive is failing is to disconnect the external Expander drive.
This would lost your recordings since Tivo stores the recordings across both drives.

After the external is removed and the Tivo is restarted, If it does not have issues, or reboots itself, then the external is failing. If it continues to reboot, or have issues, then the internal is failing.

Another thing is the Tivo's power supply is having issues which could also cause the hard drive issues. Most of the time the capacitors is the culprit.

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Old 04-13-2016, 10:49 AM   #4
Teeps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerOrLater View Post
Hello,
I have a lifetime Tivo3HD TCD652160, and an external WD DVR Expander.
It has its original internal drive, but I've already replaced the power supply once.

Recently, I've been experiencing a lot for freezing/rebooting while watching recorded shows. Sometimes, upon rebooting, the unit gets stuck in "Welcome Powering Up screen" or at the end of "A few more minutes" screen, in which case, I have to do a hard power-cycle to reboot again.

I've browsed through the forums here and I'm guessing it is the sign of a failing hard drive, but is there a way to tell whether it is the internal HD or the external Expander that is acting up?

Also, as I am planning to create a mirror image of my interna drive, I found a download of WinMFS Beta 9.3f, but I've seen something about MFS Live cd v1.4. What are the differences? Does it matter?
Is the procedure the same if it is the external Expander HD that is failing?

Thanks in advance!
I had 2 internal drives go bad on my S3 648250, with a 1TB external drive.
Similar symptoms as you describe above.
Each time copying the failing drive data to a replacement drive of equal size fixed the problem.
The expander drive should be able to be copied to a new drive of equal size too. But I never had an expander drive fail, ironic...

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Old 04-14-2016, 04:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeps View Post
~snip~
I'm sorry to hear that, it must have been frustrating dealing with it. I would agree completely with you with just one note - cloning or copying data from a failing drive involves a chance that you will transfer corrupted or bad data and errors to the new drive and thus having problems down the road. This is why backups are recommended for all data that is considered valuable.

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Old 04-14-2016, 05:31 AM   #6
mark1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_WD View Post
I'm sorry to hear that, it must have been frustrating dealing with it. I would agree completely with you with just one note - cloning or copying data from a failing drive involves a chance that you will transfer corrupted or bad data and errors to the new drive and thus having problems down the road. This is why backups are recommended for all data that is considered valuable.

Captain_WD.
Captain WD has a valid point, maybe someone will chime in that has a clean image download link for your unit, defiantly the best route to go.

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Old 04-14-2016, 09:47 PM   #7
SoonerOrLater
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Thanks for all the replies.
I'm trying to save my existing recordings, so I'm going to try cloning the internal drive first using WinMFS Beta 9.3f.
Fingers crossed!

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* TiVo HD DVR (652160) v11.0 /lifetime service
* External DVR Expander WD5000F032
* Motorola M-Card from Time Warner Cable (SoCal)
* Tivo Wireless G adapter
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Old 04-16-2016, 03:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerOrLater View Post
Thanks for all the replies.
I'm trying to save my existing recordings, so I'm going to try cloning the internal drive first using WinMFS Beta 9.3f.
Fingers crossed!
If you try to copy just the internal drive with WinMFS, it may complain about the absence of the external drive, because it's designed to copy TiVo drive structures specifically.

You may need to use something that just copies the ones and zeros without knowing or caring what they are.

You can "Xerox" it with a Linux command line utility like

dd_rescue

(which is on the MFS Live cd v1.4)

or

ddrescue

which is similar and available on the jmfs cd (about which there are a couple of threads around here), and on the Universal Boot CD.


What do you currently have in the way of spare (or temporarily spare) hard drives?

Also, what is the model number on the external drive?


(WinMFS is a program that runs on/in Windows [XP or newer], and you generally need to run it as admin.

The MFS Live cd, and the jmfs cd boot into a Linux command line, and don't use your Windows installation at all. I think you can even use them with a Mac.

The jmfs cd was developed for the sole purpose of taking a stock Premiere drive, copying it to a larger drive, and doing some partition juggling to expand into the rest of the drive. It was needed at the time because changes made to the TiVo drive structure for the Premiere meant that WinMFS and the MFS Live cd couldn't work with Premiere drives. It turned out that the jmfs cd could also work with the S3 HD and HD XL--again, starting with the stock factory drive--, though not the original S3, nor any of the S2 or S1 models.

In your situation, it's only value would be bypassing the script it runs and getting to the command line to run

ddrescue

which it what it uses to do the copying.)

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Old 04-20-2016, 04:31 PM   #9
SoonerOrLater
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Update

So..., my original internal HD was a WD1600AVBS.

I managed to mirror its full image to a WD1600AVVS, using "ubuntu-rescue-remix-12-04" to boot my PC from the CD drive (for some reason, MFS Live CD 1.4 did not recognize the SATA ports on my computer, but Ubuntu had no problem).
The full command I used was :
ddrescue -f -n /dev/sda /dev/sdb

I read somewhere that Ubuntu also had a "gddrescue" command (GNU ddrescue) that has some improvements over "ddrescue" (which, in fact ,runs dd_rescue), but I wasn't sure how to use it. This is a bit confusing...

Anyway, I tried to reboot my TivoHD with the new mirrored internal drive, and the original external drive (My DVR Expander), and still no joy, stuck on "Welcome, Powering Up" screen.
I unplugged the external drive, and the Tivo finally booted up to the "External drive not detected screen". I selected the option continue without external storage, and after a few minutes, it resumed its normal operation!

Interestingly,
- I did not get any "Hardware Error #51", even though it was a different internal drive.
- I did not have to use KickStart #57
- I did not have to re-initialize the internal drive
- instead of getting an empty "Now Playing" list, it recovered the old recordings that I had made before the external drive had been added!

It's been working (recording, playing back) without any problem since.

Then, I took the external hard drive out of the My DVR Expander enclosure (model WD5000F032).
The drive itself is a WD5000AVJS-63TRA0, firmware 12.01C01. I connected it to a SATA port of my PC.
I ran a SMART test on it using WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic. At first, it failed (the drive was detected but then it disconnected). I restarted the PC and tried again and this time is passed the Quick Test. I then ran a full test, which took over 30 hours! Obviously, this drive has issues and was the source of my Tivo freezing problem.

Now, I just ordered a WD5000AVVS-63ZWB0, firmware 01.01B01.
I will try mirroring the "bad" external drive using Ubuntu commands, and place the new drive in the My DVR Expander enclosure.
Hopefully, the Tivo will be able to retrieve the recordings that were on the external drive. I might have to put the original internal drive back in the Tivo to match it with the external data.
I'll update this thread afterwards.

Thanks again for all the advice.

__________________
TiVo user since 2000
* TiVo HD DVR (652160) v11.0 /lifetime service
* External DVR Expander WD5000F032
* Motorola M-Card from Time Warner Cable (SoCal)
* Tivo Wireless G adapter

Last edited by SoonerOrLater; 04-20-2016 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:48 PM   #10
unitron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerOrLater View Post
So..., my original internal HD was a WD1600AVBS.

I managed to mirror its full image to a WD1600AVVS, using "ubuntu-rescue-remix-12-04" to boot my PC from the CD drive (for some reason, MFS Live CD 1.4 did not recognize the SATA ports on my computer, but Ubuntu had no problem).
The full command I used was :
ddrescue -f -n /dev/sda /dev/sdb

I read somewhere that Ubuntu also had a "gddrescue" command (GNU ddrescue) that has some improvements over "ddrescue" (which, in fact ,runs dd_rescue), but I wasn't sure how to use it. This is a bit confusing...

Anyway, I tried to reboot my TivoHD with the new mirrored internal drive, and the original external drive (My DVR Expander), and still no joy, stuck on "Welcome, Powering Up" screen.
I unplugged the external drive, and the Tivo finally booted up to the "External drive not detected screen". I selected the option continue without external storage, and after a few minutes, it resumed its normal operation!

Interestingly,
- I did not get any "Hardware Error #51", even though a different internal drive.
- I did not have to use KickStart #57
- I did not have to re-initialize the internal drive
- instead of getting an empty "Now Playing" list, it recovered the old recordings that I had made before the external drive had been added!

It's been working (recording, playing back) without any problem since.

Then, I took the external hard drive out of the My DVR Expander enclosure (model WD5000F032).
The drive itself is a WD5000AVJS-63TRA0, firmware 12.01C01. I connected it to a SATA port of my PC.
I ran a SMART test on it using WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic. At first, it failed (the drive was detected but then it disconnected). I restarted the PC and tried again and this time is passed the Quick Test. I then ran a full test, which took over 30 hours! Obviously, this drive has issues and was the source of my Tivo freezing problem.

Now, I just ordered a WD5000AVVS-63ZWB0, firmware 01.01B01.
I will try mirroring the "bad" external drive using Ubuntu commands, and place the new drive in the My DVR Expander enclosure.
Hopefully, the Tivo will be able to retrieve the recordings that were on the external drive. I might have to put the original internal drive back in the Tivo to match it with the external data.
I'll update this thread afterwards.

Thanks again for all the advice.

You should have gotten a "Xerox" of the internal to the new internal by doing it that way, so the TiVo won't know that you've changed drives.

Error 51 generally occurs when you've put in a drive with an image from the same model TiVo but not the same unit, therefore the image has a different TiVo Service Number recorded wherever it is that TiVos keep that info stored on the drive.

On boot-up, the TiVo detects the mismatch between the TSN recorded on the drive and the one that's reported by the "crypto chip" on the motherboard, and insists on changing the TSN on the drive to match the motherboard and on erasing everything, like recordings, connected to the TSN from the other machine.

Since you did a byte for byte copy of the first internal, the TSN that matches your motherboard got copied over along with everything else, so the TiVo didn't see a conflict.

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Old 04-22-2016, 09:49 PM   #11
shwru980r
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When my Tivo HD started having issues I unplugged the external drive and just used the internal drive for a while until it started having issues again. Then I just bought a 2 TB drive and used winmfs and an tbk file downladed from this site to get the drive working with Tivo.

Drives are so cheap now and much larger than they were in 2008. It doesn't make sense to me to bother with the external drive anymore. The thought of waiting 30 hours for a diagnostic test to complete isn't worth it to me.

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