TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > TiVo TV Talk > Now Playing - TV Show Talk
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-05-2015, 07:53 PM   #1
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
Doctor Who "Hell Bent" 12/5/2015

Overall I liked it though not as good as some other finale's.

One thing that bothered me was the references to him spending billions of years for her. Each copy only spent a day or two and that should be the memory he had.

I liked the call backs to people and locations. I kind of predicted how the memory wipe would work. I liked the walk through the cloisters.

Doctor with a gun, though shooting the guy seemed kind of pointless.

This does not explain the raven not leaving her body as she was "taken" before it even entered her.

I'm kinda of bored of "Me" (aren't you all !!!).

Christmas ep looks like a return to goofiness.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2015, 10:25 PM   #2
cstelter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mankato, MN
Posts: 295
I rather liked it. Two tardis's both with stuck chameleon circuits could make for some interesting episodes in the future.

Waiting for Clara to say 'I'm not quite dead yet!'

4.5 billion years transpired in the confession dial even though the doctor's current memory only recalls the final day or so and the age on his body is only an extra day or so. But the point was he kept at it for 4.5 billion years rather than take the 'easy way out'.

This was the first ep since the first one that I liked 'Me' in.

They went back to the half human from 8th doctor.

Woman in the barn said 'my boys' and then allowed the Doctor to stay. Was she his mother??? Was she referring to he and Missy/Master?

I thought the barn looked a lot like the one in 50th anniversary ep, but I don't think it was meant to be the same.

Who was the Doctor talking to at the end of last episode when he was talking about the hybrid? Himself? Davros? Council of Time Lords?
Quote:
looking at the confession:

You can probably still hear me, so just between ourselves
You got the prophesy wrong

The hybrid is not half dalek, nothing is half dalek, the daleks would never allow that

The hybrid destined to conquer Gallifrey and stand in its ruins...

is me.
I guess it was the last as the confession dial was for their benefit? But the last time we saw him discuss the hybrid and the half Time Lord/Half Dalek was with Davros. So that is something I'm still unsure about

__________________
Craig S
cstelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2015, 11:16 PM   #3
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
It was the same barn.

What do you mean that they went back to half human? That was not the explanation.

Each copy kept at it for one day, hence did not feel the passage of time.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2015, 11:31 PM   #4
tvmaster2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,904
"Don't run. Why do they always run...."

no wasted dialogue, and I hate it when I'm right 😜
she's pining.

still the master...

tvmaster2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:00 AM   #5
morac
Cat God
 
morac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,180
Overall a fairly confusing episode. We get an undead Clara traveling around with Me until she decides it's time to die and apparently the universe doesn't have a problem with that.

Then there's the line about Clara and the Doctor first being introduced to each other by Missy. When was that ever said previously? Clara got the Doctor's number from a woman, but I don't recall it ever being said that it was Missy who did that.

Finally there's the kind of non-plot about Gallifrey and the cloisters. It was a very round about way to have Clara "forgotten", which she really wasn't since the Doctor remembered all the adventures he had with her, just not what she looked like or anything else specifically about her.

For an extended length episode, it seemed like not a lot happened.

morac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:05 AM   #6
morac
Cat God
 
morac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvmaster2 View Post
"Don't run. Why do they always run...."



no wasted dialogue, and I hate it when I'm right

she's pining.



still the master...

Not sure if it was wasted or if it is a reference to the Doctor. "Run you clever boy and remember", which became "run you clever boy and be the Doctor" in this episode.

morac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:57 AM   #7
Craigbob
Registered User
 
Craigbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Land of Fruits, Nuts and Flakes, So. Cal
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by morac View Post
Overall a fairly confusing episode. We get an undead Clara traveling around with Me until she decides it's time to die and apparently the universe doesn't have a problem with that.

Then there's the line about Clara and the Doctor first being introduced to each other by Missy. When was that ever said previously? Clara got the Doctor's number from a woman, but I don't recall it ever being said that it was Missy who did that.

Finally there's the kind of non-plot about Gallifrey and the cloisters. It was a very round about way to have Clara "forgotten", which she really wasn't since the Doctor remembered all the adventures he had with her, just not what she looked like or anything else specifically about her.

For an extended length episode, it seemed like not a lot happened.
I can't remember if it was the first or second episode of the this season, but in one of the eps Missy comes out and say it was her who gave Clara the Doctor's number.

__________________
"Oh Yeah, Ohh... Ahh... That's how it always starts; but later there's running and screaming."
Craigbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 01:18 AM   #8
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
It might even have been last season but it's definitely known.

Totally lost on how the "why do they always run" is relevant?

I think this actually slightly soured the Raven episode, ruining it's impact. It's also one of the first times time has been changed to save someone.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:19 AM   #9
kdmorse
Registered User
 
kdmorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 4,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
One thing that bothered me was the references to him spending billions of years for her. Each copy only spent a day or two and that should be the memory he had.
While logically true, he said in the last episode fairly clearly that he remembered them all. (I rewatched it before watching this one). Combined with the dialog in this story, it strongly implies he experienced the passage of the entire 4.5 billion years. (Even if the mechanics of the room would suggest otherwise)

While not as strong, and not as captivating as some other episodes, I liked it well enough.

__________________
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"Stop slouching! It's two O'clock in the afternoon, PUT PANTS ON!"
"Statistically speaking, there are two Popes per square kilometer in Vatican City..."
kdmorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 08:24 AM   #10
cheesesteak
Meh.
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 15 mins from Philly
Posts: 28,196
I loved this episode.

__________________

Fo' Fo' Fo' - Moses Malone
cheesesteak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 08:45 AM   #11
JimSpence
Just hangin'
 
JimSpence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 30,626
I hope this episode is repeated as my recording quit with 25m left.
The time line showed 1:25 yet it went to the Delete at 1:02.

__________________
Jim
JimSpence is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 10:53 AM   #12
tvmaster2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSpence View Post
I hope this episode is repeated as my recording quit with 25m left.
The time line showed 1:25 yet it went to the Delete at 1:02.
better check, they may run it once more. ending is kinda important

tvmaster2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 10:57 AM   #13
BitbyBlit
.
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,207
I thought this episode was great, and one of the better season finales.

They also finally addressed my complaint about Clara being able to convince the Time Lords to send the Doctor new regeneration energy. Now we know that Clara didn't, in fact, appeal to their humanity (Time Lordity?), but instead made them realize how deep the Doctor's connections went with beings of other races.

What they really wanted from the Doctor was knowledge of the hybrid, but Clara's appeal to them caused them to come to two conclusions:

1. The Doctor would die before letting them come out to resume the Time War.

2. The Doctor's connections offered a vulnerability that they could exploit.

So they gave him regeneration energy not because they believed in him, but because they needed to keep him alive long enough for them to set up their trap.

And if Ashildr's theory about the hybrid was correct, then the Time Lord's trap to find out about the hybrid because of its threat to them is what caused it to be a threat to them in the first place.

It's also good to know that after waiting over 100 trillion years, Ashildr finally got one of the things she had wanted long ago: to travel the universe in a TARDIS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdmorse View Post
While logically true, he said in the last episode fairly clearly that he remembered them all.
When did he say that? He didn't remember his previous incarnations while he was in the confession dial. Otherwise he wouldn't have kept repeating many of the same things each day.

Was it after he left it that he remembered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morac View Post
Then there's the line about Clara and the Doctor first being introduced to each other by Missy. When was that ever said previously? Clara got the Doctor's number from a woman, but I don't recall it ever being said that it was Missy who did that.
The viewers were told about it in the first episode with Capaldi's Doctor. At the end, Clara and the Doctor were speculating about who had put the message in the newspaper for them to meet at the restaurant, and the Doctor brought up the woman who had given Clara his number. After that, the episode cut to a scene with Missy in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morac View Post
Finally there's the kind of non-plot about Gallifrey and the cloisters. It was a very round about way to have Clara "forgotten", which she really wasn't since the Doctor remembered all the adventures he had with her, just not what she looked like or anything else specifically about her.
My guess is that the reason that happened was because the Doctor had configured the memory block for a human. But it made him forget enough that he was able to finally let her go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
It's also one of the first times time has been changed to save someone.
Technically time was not changed, though. As long as Clara makes it back, she will still die by the raven. She just had an opportunity to do a bunch of stuff in the last "moment" of her life that we didn't know about when we originally saw her die.

Ironically, her traveling the universe as an immortal extracted out of time was probably what made her death a fixed event, which is what made her immortal in the first place. And that immortality which is forcing her to return is also allowing her to delay her return without having to worry about dying somewhere else, and thus breaking time.

__________________
You work hard, you get good grades, you eat right...and then you trigger an alien attack on humanity. Karen Lipinski, Other Space

Last edited by BitbyBlit; 12-06-2015 at 08:10 PM.
BitbyBlit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:05 PM   #14
kdmorse
Registered User
 
kdmorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 4,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitbyBlit View Post
Pet Peeve - you quoted me saying something I never said.

As to the other thing, I'll have to go back and rewatch to get his exact words and when he said it. But it implied that in each loop, once he began to realize what was going on, he had a memory of the past loops.

__________________
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"Stop slouching! It's two O'clock in the afternoon, PUT PANTS ON!"
"Statistically speaking, there are two Popes per square kilometer in Vatican City..."
kdmorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:51 PM   #15
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 35,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdmorse View Post
As to the other thing, I'll have to go back and rewatch to get his exact words and when he said it. But it implied that in each loop, once he began to realize what was going on, he had a memory of the past loops.
I didn't get that. My impression is just that he figured out that there WERE past loops, and knowing that he figured out what his plan would be.

__________________
“I wish I had my knives.”
“You won't need them.”
“I never need them.”
Rob Helmerichs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 12:56 PM   #16
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdmorse View Post
Pet Peeve - you quoted me saying something I never said.

As to the other thing, I'll have to go back and rewatch to get his exact words and when he said it. But it implied that in each loop, once he began to realize what was going on, he had a memory of the past loops.
Given the time we saw the full loop it was pretty clear that he did not remember and there were thousands of skulls so that was far from his first time. He figured out what was happening at the end of his time but he did not know when he "woke up".

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 01:19 PM   #17
jbondsr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 22
I thought after each loop the rooms were reset, so wouldn't the wall the Doctor hit just return to normal 4.5 billion times.

jbondsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 02:46 PM   #18
busyba
The Funcooker
 
busyba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 31,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
Each copy kept at it for one day, hence did not feel the passage of time.
For most of the time, yes, each copy is unaware of the passage of time.

But there's a moment when he's standing before the diamond (I know) wall and he turns around and asks "bird?", wondering what the significance is, and at that moment he suddenly remembers everything.

The moment is marked with a close up of his face and they do a dolly zoom.

Then they cut to the Doctor's "mental TARDIS" where he says, "That's when I remember! Always then... always then. Always exactly then! I can't keep doing this Clara!" and he goes into the whole "why do I have to win, why can't I just lose" thing.

It's in those final moments of that iteration's life that he remembers and feels all the time that had passed up until then.


And really, if you think about it, it's even worse than 4.5 billion years, because each day he relives in his mind all the days leading up to that particular iteration's day, so really the number of days he's experiecenced is the sum of the series "1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + ... + (4.5Billion * 365)".

__________________
"Wow... I so love you" --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"of course, you are 100% correct" --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"busyba is officially my favorite poster." --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

busyba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 03:02 PM   #19
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
Your science has defeated me so I will counter with - it makes no sense that a copy from point A would remember everything through point Z.

But that is just the desperation claim of the defeated and let's talk about this episode

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 03:06 PM   #20
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 35,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by busyba View Post
Then they cut to the Doctor's "mental TARDIS" where he says, "That's when I remember! Always then... always then. Always exactly then! I can't keep doing this Clara!" and he goes into the whole "why do I have to win, why can't I just lose" thing.

It's in those final moments of that iteration's life that he remembers and feels all the time that had passed up until then.
Or is that simply when he realizes he's in a loop?

__________________
“I wish I had my knives.”
“You won't need them.”
“I never need them.”
Rob Helmerichs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 03:59 PM   #21
morac
Cat God
 
morac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs View Post
Or is that simply when he realizes he's in a loop?

This. I don't think he remembers, it's just when he figures it all out.

I'm still not sure how the clues get set up initially considering the rooms reset each time. One could assume that they were set up by the persons who set up the "torture chamber". Also if the idea was to extract information from the Doctor, killing him wouldn't be the way to do it (you don't kill someone you are trying to extract information from), so the whole thing appears to have been designed for him to "resurrect" over and over again.

morac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:06 PM   #22
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
But if he doesn't remember (and I don't see how he can) it was wrong of him to claim in this episode that he spent 4.5 billion years for her.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:24 PM   #23
cstelter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mankato, MN
Posts: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
It was the same barn.

What do you mean that they went back to half human? That was not the explanation.
Somehow in the 50th anniversary show, I thought the Doctor went to some nearby planet, not Gallifrey to deal with the moment. Not sure what gave me that idea. What makes you so certain it is the same barn?

Ashildr asserted that he might be the hybrid-- half human and half timelord. She guessed that because why should he spend so much time on earth? But rather than say "But I'm not half human!", he seemed to posit the theory. Then she jumped to another theory that the hybrid was the Doctor-Clara pairing.

But only the Doctor knows whether he is half human or not (perhaps) so he seemed to be considering that first theory as a distinct possibility.

__________________
Craig S
cstelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:41 PM   #24
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 33,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by cstelter View Post
Somehow in the 50th anniversary show, I thought the Doctor went to some nearby planet, not Gallifrey to deal with the moment. Not sure what gave me that idea. What makes you so certain it is the same barn?
The barn was his childhood home on Gallifrey, as we saw in the episode "Listen."

During "Listen," we saw flashbacks to "Day of the Doctor" to help explain that the barn in "Listen" episode was the same one from "Day of the Doctor," where he would have set off The Moment.

LoadStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:46 PM   #25
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 33,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs View Post
I didn't get that. My impression is just that he figured out that there WERE past loops, and knowing that he figured out what his plan would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by morac View Post
This. I don't think he remembers, it's just when he figures it all out.
I concur with Rob and morac. It's at that moment he remembers what the clue "bird" could suggest, and that leads to him figuring out the rest of his plan. I don't think he literally remembers all 4.5 billion years worth of loops - there really isn't any way he could that I can see.

LoadStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:53 PM   #26
morac
Cat God
 
morac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
But if he doesn't remember (and I don't see how he can) it was wrong of him to claim in this episode that he spent 4.5 billion years for her.

Technically he did, even if he was stuck in a loop the whole time.

Once he figured out was was happening, all he had to do was give up the secret of the hybrid to be released. He chose to spend "eternity" breaking out instead.

morac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:55 PM   #27
morac
Cat God
 
morac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by cstelter View Post
Ashildr asserted that he might be the hybrid-- half human and half timelord. She guessed that because why should he spend so much time on earth? But rather than say "But I'm not half human!", he seemed to posit the theory. Then she jumped to another theory that the hybrid was the Doctor-Clara pairing.

Seems Moffat forgot there already was a human-timeline hybrid, Doctor-Donna.

morac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 04:57 PM   #28
cbrrider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB1000 View Post
But if he doesn't remember (and I don't see how he can) it was wrong of him to claim in this episode that he spent 4.5 billion years for her.
The Doctor isn't the one who answers Clara's question about how much time he spent, so he's not claiming anything, no?

cbrrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 06:23 PM   #29
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
The hybrid was The Doctor and a human, put together by Missy/Master, they were pretty clear about that.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2015, 06:24 PM   #30
JohnB1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 16,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrrider View Post
The Doctor isn't the one who answers Clara's question about how much time he spent, so he's not claiming anything, no?
That makes the most sense so far.

__________________
XBOX Live GamerTag - PotatoMagnet
JohnB1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump







Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Advertisements





TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media


(C) 2016 DBNet - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 PM.
Page generated in 0.27998900 seconds (73.07% PHP - 26.93% MySQL) with 17 queries