TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Premiere DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-21-2011, 11:14 AM   #1
grubbscd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
TIVO not following posted payment terms

I purchased the Amazon 49.99 special yesterday. There is no mention of the 19.99 price anywhere execept in a review. I went to the TIVO site and here are the payment plans.

2.1 For TiVo Premiere boxes purchased on or after February 23, 2011:

2.1.1 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box and subscription at the same time directly from TiVo, you may select one of the following options:

(i) You may purchase a TiVo box and service bundle with

(a) a box fee of $99.99 (includes an instant $200 savings off MSRP) for the TiVo Premiere box or $299.99 (includes an instant $200 savings off MSRP) for the TiVo Premiere XL box and
(b) a monthly service fee of $19.99 a month with a one (1) year commitment (renews monthly after one year); or
.(ii) Existing customers may purchase a TiVo box and service bundle on a monthly basis with

(a) no upfront cost for the TiVo Premiere box (an instant savings of $299.99 off MSRP) and

(b) a monthly service fee of $19.99 a month with a two (2) year commitment (renews monthly after two years); or
.(iii) You may purchase a TiVo box at the full MSRP (no instant savings) and subscribe to the TiVo Service on a monthly basis for $12.95 a month with a one (1) year commitment (renews monthly after 1 year) or you may purchase a Product Lifetime Subscription (defined below) for a onetime fee of $399.

2.1.2 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box from a third party retailer at $99.99 (includes an instant $200 savings off MSRP) for the TiVo Premiere box or $299.99 (includes an instant $200 savings off MSRP) for the TiVo Premiere XL box, you may only subscribe to the TiVo Service on a monthly basis for $19.99 a month with a one (1) year commitment (renews monthly after one year).

2.2 For all other TiVo boxes activated on or after February 23, 2011, you may subscribe to the TiVo Service on a monthly basis for $12.95 a month with a one (1) year commitment (renews monthly after 1 year), you may purchase an annual plan for one (1) year of TiVo Service for an upfront fee of $129, or you may purchase a Product Lifetime Subscription (defined below) for a onetime fee of $399.
####################################################


I called TIVO and talked to them about this. They say that this falls under section 2.1.2. But I didn't pay $99 for the Tivo. Even amazon's current price is 81.78 today. So I think it should fall under section 2.2. 12.95 or 129 or 399. I went up the line to the supervisor but they wouldn't budge. They said it was a Tivo-Amazon problem. I told them it seemed to me to be between Tivo and me. I was looking at their payment plans and reasonably believed that the pricing should be per section 2.2. Hopefully, enough pressure can be brought to make them honor their own posted payment terms.

Otherwise, it's going back to Amazon with a big rant to them also for not posting the full terms of purchase.
grubbscd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 11:37 AM   #2
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,803
Good Luck

All sub $99 Premieres sold since 11/14/10 have required the $19.99/mo service plain. At the beginning a few people claimed they were able to talk a CR into something other than the $19.99/mo but no one has claimed that for months.

Both TiVo and Amazon have easy return policies so all you are going to get is if you don't want it under the current terms (which in their minds is $19.99/mo for service) is go ahead and return it.

Even at $99 the units is being sold below TiVo's cost the only way they can do that is with the higher per month service plain.

Thanks,
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio

Last edited by atmuscarella : 04-21-2011 at 03:09 PM. Reason: typo in the date 11/14/11 to 11/14/10
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 11:40 AM   #3
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
This has been discussed at length dating back to last year when the $99 deal went live and retailers were selling it at $95 or $89 or $84 or whatever prices it ended up at.

While I'm surprised that Tivo hasn't fixed the terms yet (do they not have enough money to hire a lawyer and rewrite the damn thing?), I don't think you'll get any traction on disputing the payment plan terms based on the discounted sales price.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 11:40 AM   #4
Jonathan_S
Registered User
 
Jonathan_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 13,544
So you think because Amazon gave you another $50 off, in addition to the $200 TiVo discount* that somehow gets you out of the monthly rate TiVo links to their $200 discount?

Now, you've got a good point that Amazon didn't clearly list all the relivant subscription info. I can see being ticked at them. But I just don't understand how you could read 2.1.2 and think it didn't apply to that box.

*really $80 or $116 off, depending on which rate you'd have qualified for before, with the other $120 or $84 split into 12 monthly payments
__________________
Xbox: MetalThreshkeen -- PSN: Threshkeen
TiVo Elite
Jonathan_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 11:45 AM   #5
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan_S View Post
So you think because Amazon gave you another $50 off, in addition to the $200 TiVo discount* that somehow gets you out of the monthly rate TiVo links to their $200 discount?
Technically, he's correct. Read the terms, and it says "at $99.99". His Tivo was not purchased at $99.99 so that section does not apply. It's a very poorly written terms of service. At the very least, it should have been amended to say "at or below $99.99".

However, the argument just isn't going to achieve any practical real-world results, unless someone wants to start tying up a $250/hr lawyer's time over a $50 piece of consumer electronics.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 12:30 PM   #6
JimboG
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
However, the argument just isn't going to achieve any practical real-world results, unless someone wants to start tying up a $250/hr lawyer's time over a $50 piece of consumer electronics.
Maybe not just one $50 consumer electronic device, but file an action on behalf of an entire class of people who bought a Tivo Premiere for something other than $99.99...
JimboG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #7
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 13,651
They will create an addendum that states $24.99 a month for TiVos purchased below $99.99.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x3
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 01:31 PM   #8
grubbscd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Good Luck

All sub $99 Premieres sold since 11/14/11 have required the $19.99/mo service plain.
Ignoring the future date of 11/14/11, it doesn't look like that according to their posted terms. Nowhere on the Amazon site is there a reference to a $200 off MSRP discount. So it doesn't look like it is part of that plan.
grubbscd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 02:23 PM   #9
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by grubbscd View Post
Ignoring the future date of 11/14/11, it doesn't look like that according to their posted terms. Nowhere on the Amazon site is there a reference to a $200 off MSRP discount. So it doesn't look like it is part of that plan.
The retailers are nor responsible for TiVo every changing sub policy, one could have called TiVo before hand or return the TiVo to Amazon, the drive and remote itself is worth the $44. As a test I tried to active a old Series 2 on my MSD eligible TiVo account and the only web option offered was the $12.95/month. A call to TiVo may have changed that but for new customers it would look like no other option existed. IMHO TiVo playing a game on pricing as their web sight no longer has any mention of any plans other than the $12. (except for existing customer upgrades)
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2011, 03:13 PM   #10
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by grubbscd View Post
Ignoring the future date of 11/14/11, it doesn't look like that according to their posted terms. Nowhere on the Amazon site is there a reference to a $200 off MSRP discount. So it doesn't look like it is part of that plan.
Other than my typo of 11/14/11 instead of 11/14/10 I am just telling you the way it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is.

Thanks,
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 04:39 AM   #11
orangeboy
yes, I AM orangeboy!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Moline, IL
Posts: 4,075
2.1 For TiVo Premiere boxes...
2.2 For all other TiVo boxes...

Did you purchase a TiVo Premiere? Section 2.1 applies.
Did you purchase any other model of TiVo? Section 2.2 applies.

Seems pretty clear to me.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
orangeboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 05:59 AM   #12
lew
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,262
You bought a tivo Premiere with a list price of 99.99 at a retailer discounted price of 49.99. The monthly fee is 19.99
lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 11:52 AM   #13
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by lew View Post
You bought a tivo Premiere with a list price of 99.99 at a retailer discounted price of 49.99. The monthly fee is 19.99
To quote the OP: "When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box from a third party retailer at $99.99"

The ToS doesn't say anything about a 'list price'. The buyer purchased it 'at' 49.95, not 99.99. If Tivo wants to bind the buyer based on the list price, not the purchase price, then they need to say 'list price' in the terms of service. They didn't. Bad tivo. Bad.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 12:21 PM   #14
kturcotte
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland, ME
Posts: 1,045
I wonder how much this is costing companies in either return shipping fees and/or dealing with restocking returns. There SHOULD be a notice right on the box AND customers SHOULD be told at time of purchase that the box will REQUIRE a $20 a month service fee.
kturcotte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 12:41 PM   #15
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by kturcotte View Post
I wonder how much this is costing companies in either return shipping fees and/or dealing with restocking returns. There SHOULD be a notice right on the box AND customers SHOULD be told at time of purchase that the box will REQUIRE a $20 a month service fee.
Amazon does clearly state "Monthly subscription required" and if you went to tivo.con to find out what it would be it sure would look like it it is $19.99/mo if you had any dought and called that is what they would tell you. So I don't see why anyone would think it is something else unless they just didn't check and went on past experance.

Thanks,
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 01:49 PM   #16
grubbscd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Other than my typo of 11/14/11 instead of 11/14/10 I am just telling you the way it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is.

Thanks,
Funny, That's exactly what TIVO says.

If you try to pigeon-hole your purchase into TIVO's pricing terms, it looks like it falls into the section 2.2 bucket. They should change their terms for 2.1.2 to purchasing from a third party retailer at $99 or less. 2 extra words clears up a lot of problems.

Now if I decide to keep the equipment and not sign up for the monthly service, what can TIVO do? And if I sell the box later to some other user, can they sign up for the 12.95 option? How about I sell it to my wife?
grubbscd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 02:17 PM   #17
vurbano
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 423
Amazon discounted the unit $50 dollars below the $99 dollars. It is between you and Amazon.
__________________
1 - Roamio Plus with 3TB upgrade
2 - Tivo mini
vurbano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 02:21 PM   #18
Jonathan_S
Registered User
 
Jonathan_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 13,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by grubbscd View Post
They should change their terms for 2.1.2 to purchasing from a third party retailer at $99 or less. 2 extra words clears up a lot of problems.
Actually it only partly clears up the problem. Because the minute a retailer goes a couple bucks over the discounted MSRP the same argument is back. "It says $99 or less and I got charged $105. I should get the $13/month fee, not the $20"

It needs to be clearer that it applies to all TiVos where the $200 discount to full MSRP has been applied. Because that's what TiVo really cares about. Maybe move the $99/$299 into parenthesis.

Something like: "2.1.2 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box from a third party retailer with the instant $200 savings off MSRP (new suggested retail price $99.99) for the TiVo Premiere box or (new suggested retail price $299.99) for the TiVo Premiere XL box..."
__________________
Xbox: MetalThreshkeen -- PSN: Threshkeen
TiVo Elite
Jonathan_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 03:06 PM   #19
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan_S View Post
Actually it only partly clears up the problem. Because the minute a retailer goes a couple bucks over the discounted MSRP the same argument is back. "It says $99 or less and I got charged $105. I should get the $13/month fee, not the $20"

It needs to be clearer that it applies to all TiVos where the $200 discount to full MSRP has been applied. Because that's what TiVo really cares about. Maybe move the $99/$299 into parenthesis.

Something like: "2.1.2 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box from a third party retailer with the instant $200 savings off MSRP (new suggested retail price $99.99) for the TiVo Premiere box or (new suggested retail price $299.99) for the TiVo Premiere XL box..."
TiVos English may leave a lot to be desired but at this point in time ANY TP that never had a sub and is not a refurb unit (The TSN has an extra 1 ie xxx-xx1x-xxxx-xxxx) will pay the $19.99/month rate, you can't purchase it from Amazon and then sell it to your son for $299 so he can get the $12.95 monthly rate. As time goes on even calling TiVo with a tail of but i paid $299 on E-Bay because I am a jerk will not work most of the time in getting you a lower than $19.99/month rate.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 03:08 PM   #20
dianebrat
Uncontrolled Force
 
dianebrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: boston'ish
Posts: 7,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan_S View Post
Actually it only partly clears up the problem. Because the minute a retailer goes a couple bucks over the discounted MSRP the same argument is back. "It says $99 or less and I got charged $105. I should get the $13/month fee, not the $20"

It needs to be clearer that it applies to all TiVos where the $200 discount to full MSRP has been applied. Because that's what TiVo really cares about. Maybe move the $99/$299 into parenthesis.

Something like: "2.1.2 When purchasing a TiVo Premiere box from a third party retailer with the instant $200 savings off MSRP (new suggested retail price $99.99) for the TiVo Premiere box or (new suggested retail price $299.99) for the TiVo Premiere XL box..."
EXACTLY..
and for the OP to even try to play the "but I didn't know" game assumes that Tivo is naive in this, of course the OP knew, they were trying to get out of the $19.95 and thought they found a loophole.

The loophole to get out of $19.95 is to pay full price (or buy a woot refurb)
__________________
"There is a distinct difference between having an open mind and having a hole in your head from which your brain leaks out."
dianebrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 03:28 PM   #21
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by grubbscd View Post
They should change their terms for 2.1.2 to purchasing from a third party retailer at $99 or less. 2 extra words clears up a lot of problems.
They'd also need to define the words "purchase" and "third party retailer", lest someone conclude that the terms don't apply because they bought it on ebay for $100.01. It really takes a legal 'wall of text' (or wall of fine print) to get something like this done right with no ambiguities or loopholes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dianebrat
EXACTLY..
and for the OP to even try to play the "but I didn't know" game assumes that Tivo is naive in this, of course the OP knew, they were trying to get out of the $19.95 and thought they found a loophole.
Perhaps he did in fact not know, it really doesn't matter. It's not a loophole, it's a straightforward reading of the ToS. Bring it to a lawyer and I bet they'll interpret it the same way the OP did. Tivo has had plenty of time to fix the ToS yet they choose not to.

That section applies to Tivos purchased at $99.99. Not $49.99. Not Tivos with an original MSRP of $99.99. Not Tivos that 'should have been sold for $99.99 but weren't for reasons X Y and Z'. It says at $99.99. If Tivo had meant something else, they should have written something else.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2011, 05:06 PM   #22
orangeboy
yes, I AM orangeboy!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Moline, IL
Posts: 4,075
I don't get how people are missing sections 2.1 and 2.2, and debating about the various subsections. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...36#post8485536
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
orangeboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2011, 02:16 AM   #23
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeboy View Post
I don't get how people are missing sections 2.1 and 2.2, and debating about the various subsections. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...36#post8485536
If one argues that 2.1 applies and therefore excludes 2.2, and both subsections 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 do not apply then there is no section in the ToS that applies. The box then has no service?

Section 2.2 is very broad, "for all other Tivo boxes". I think the argument could be made that a box that is covered by neither 2.1.1 or 2.1.2 is by extension not covered by 2.1 and thus falls into the catch-all of "all other Tivo boxes".

I really wonder what kind of person wrote this thing up, they're referring to their product as a "box". They don't sell boxes. They sell DVRs. Maybe they saved a few bucks and had one of the programmers that was supposed to be implementing HDUI work on it instead of the lawyers.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2011, 06:58 AM   #24
orangeboy
yes, I AM orangeboy!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Moline, IL
Posts: 4,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
If one argues that 2.1 applies and therefore excludes 2.2, and both subsections 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 do not apply then there is no section in the ToS that applies. The box then has no service?

Section 2.2 is very broad, "for all other Tivo boxes". I think the argument could be made that a box that is covered by neither 2.1.1 or 2.1.2 is by extension not covered by 2.1 and thus falls into the catch-all of "all other Tivo boxes".
I would place blame solely on the retailers for not disclosing that the consumer is purchasing a TiVo box @$99.99 plus any additional discounts offered by the retailer. Should the retailers detail which discounts are applied towards the final price? Absolutely. Could the TiVo Payment Plans outline better reflect such discounts? Certainly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
I really wonder what kind of person wrote this thing up, they're referring to their product as a "box". They don't sell boxes. They sell DVRs. Maybe they saved a few bucks and had one of the programmers that was supposed to be implementing HDUI work on it instead of the lawyers.
"Box" is one of the recommended terms.

Quote:
Registered Trademarks
The following is a list of registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. Except for slogans and sounds, these registered trademarks should be printed with the registered trademark designation ® on their first appearance in all materials and wherever necessary to demonstrate that they are trademarks.

Registered Trademarks and Recommended Generic Terms (to be included after the trademarks):

Code:
REGISTERED TRADEMARKS		RECOMMENDED GENERIC TERMS 
TiVo®				DVR, box, or service
TiVo Central®			screen, menu screen 
Season Pass ®			feature or recordings 
StopIIWatch ®			service, data 
WishList®			search or feature

Source
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by orangeboy : 04-23-2011 at 07:25 AM.
orangeboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2011, 12:34 PM   #25
smbaker
Registered User
 
smbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 14,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeboy View Post
I would place blame solely on the retailers for not disclosing that the consumer is purchasing a TiVo box @$99.99 plus any additional discounts offered by the retailer. Should the retailers detail which discounts are applied towards the final price? Absolutely. Could the TiVo Payment Plans outline better reflect such discounts? Certainly.
Oh, I agree there, the retailers need to do better and should disclose that a monthly fee is required, should disclose it right up there in plain view of the where the up-front price is show, should include it in the description field in the shopping card, and should clearly show the full amount of the monthly fee. That would solve everything. However, let's face it, the retailers don't want the customers to know there is a monthly fee, or how much it is, or that a 1yr term is required. It's in their best interest if those details 'slip by' the consumer.

I disagree that the merchants should try to obfuscate the language of the transaction by writing it up as 'purchased at $99.99 plus merchant discount'. The act of the purchase is done by the consumer and it's still purchased 'at $49.95'.

Regardless of the merchant's responsibility, it's still a poorly written terms of service that doesn't define what service a Tivo Premiere purchased 'at $49.95' is eligible for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeboy
"Box" is one of the recommended terms.
I still think DVR is a better word than 'box', especially when used in a terms of service. Box is ambiguous, as the 'Tivo Box' could refer to the electronic device I put in my entertainment center as well as the cardboard thing I put in the recycling bin. Generic terms might be useful for press media and and CSRs, but not necessarily in the document that defines your service relationship with the customer.
__________________
1 Roamio Plus
2 Lifetime Premieres, 2 HDs, 2 S2DTs
1 Original Philips S1 from all the way back in 1999!

Last edited by smbaker : 04-23-2011 at 12:45 PM.
smbaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 12:58 AM   #26
Series3Sub
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
Technically, he's correct. Read the terms, and it says "at $99.99". His Tivo was not purchased at $99.99 so that section does not apply. It's a very poorly written terms of service. At the very least, it should have been amended to say "at or below $99.99".

However, the argument just isn't going to achieve any practical real-world results, unless someone wants to start tying up a $250/hr lawyer's time over a $50 piece of consumer electronics.
That's what class actions are for, except now the conservative majority has made such possible redress by individuals pretty much impossible now for those cheated out of a few dollars but on a massive scale of millions of customers. Our Supreme Court is bought and paid for.
Series3Sub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 07:00 AM   #27
slowbiscuit
FUBAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 2,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
If one argues that 2.1 applies and therefore excludes 2.2, and both subsections 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 do not apply then there is no section in the ToS that applies. The box then has no service?

Section 2.2 is very broad, "for all other Tivo boxes". I think the argument could be made that a box that is covered by neither 2.1.1 or 2.1.2 is by extension not covered by 2.1 and thus falls into the catch-all of "all other Tivo boxes".

Maybe they saved a few bucks and had one of the programmers that was supposed to be implementing HDUI work on it instead of the lawyers.
+1, my interpretation exactly. I get the impression that the lawyers were hired at the same time as the HDUI Flash programmers...

As I said in another thread, I don't understand why Tivo's marketing folks don't enforce clear disclosure of terms with major retailers like Amazon. All this crap does is lead to more refurbs on woot and tivo.com.
slowbiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 07:34 AM   #28
aadam101
Future Prez of ABC
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 6,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan_S View Post
. But I just don't understand how you could read 2.1.2 and think it didn't apply to that box.
That's the point. He shouldn't have to "think." Tivo should spell it out. We shouldn't have dozens of threads (sometimes several pages long) to try and figure out what the price of a box is and why.
__________________
A passing grade? Like a C? Why don't I just get pregnant at a bus station!
aadam101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 07:39 AM   #29
Stormspace
Electrocuted by TiVo
 
Stormspace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hartsville, SC
Posts: 4,792
Meh. It's a contract and if TiVo wrote it poorly they don't get the option to not honor it. If you don't keep your sub for a year, they'll certainly hold that contract up to you and get the early service termination fee from you. A contract works both ways, that's the way they are designed to protect both parties from this type of thing.
__________________
137hr DTS2
20/180hr HD
166hr DTS2
180hr S2

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Stormspace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #30
scandia101
Just the facts ma'am
 
scandia101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MN, greater TC metro area
Posts: 9,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
I still think DVR is a better word than 'box', especially when used in a terms of service. Box is ambiguous, as the 'Tivo Box' could refer to the electronic device I put in my entertainment center as well as the cardboard thing I put in the recycling bin. Generic terms might be useful for press media and and CSRs, but not necessarily in the document that defines your service relationship with the customer.
That cardboard thing you put in the recycling bin is a carton.
__________________
discipuli nostrum bardissimi sunt.
scandia101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:08 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |