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Old 03-12-2012, 12:07 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
Thanks unitron. I spoke too soon when I thought I was plagued with the apple_free issue....my partition was named differently and was the first partition, not the 16th one as you pointed out - - funny seeing a partition named Apple anything on the Tivo drive - they're everywhere; As far as the instructions go for copying the settings and programs, I am assuming the "expand" command is done in the jmfs environment but I will still need to come back to winmfs in Windows to execute "supersize" before I install the new drive.

I spent most of the day going through posts and doing searches of "advanced format" and "jumper" in the drive upgrade thread- - the advanced format issue does not appear to be one that is going to cause me concern with a WD20EARS or WD20EURS. I've got an Asus P5b with an Intel dual core 800 mgH processor......it's not the greatest but it chugs along and has four sata 1 slots and I put in a JMicron sata 2 card that gives me four sata 2 slots. It booted fine with the winmfs boot CD when I did the original upgrade from the 160gb drive and recognized the drives, so I think I will not have a major obstacle unless someone sees something I have missed. I will give a report on my success (or lack of) later in the week when I've got the new drive and I'm done. Thanks again,

BJ
"As far as the instructions go for copying the settings and programs, I am assuming the "expand" command is done in the jmfs environment but I will still need to come back to winmfs in Windows to execute "supersize" before I install the new drive."

Correct, although you can go ahead and supersize the 1TB Hitachi with WinMFS first and then copy it to the 2TB with jmfs and add the 16th and final partition with jmfs.

Supersizing uses some of one of the original factory TiVo partitions and "unreserves" it, so you can do it anytime.

Apparently at least in part because of the CPU used in the original Series 1, TiVo chose to use the old Apple Partition Map way of formatting a hard drive, or at least a version of the APM.

The first partition of an Apple Partition Map formatted drive is always the partition map itself, regardless of what it's used in.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:32 PM   #362
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.......Correct, although you can go ahead and supersize the 1TB Hitachi with WinMFS first and then copy it to the 2TB with jmfs and add the 16th and final partition with jmfs.

Supersizing uses some of one of the original factory TiVo partitions and "unreserves" it, so you can do it anytime.......
I hope I am not boring the forum with my dense head: Thanks for the response unitron, but I fear I may have missed something or something may have been missing from the partition table/zone map info. I am doggone near certain I supersized the Hitachi drive using winmfs when I did the original upgrade from the 160 gb drive - that's how I got to 157 hrs. of HD capacity. Do I need to run it again before I start the 1 tb to 2 tb upgrade?

Thanks,

BJ
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:23 PM   #363
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I hope I am not boring the forum with my dense head: Thanks for the response unitron, but I fear I may have missed something or something may have been missing from the partition table/zone map info. I am doggone near certain I supersized the Hitachi drive using winmfs when I did the original upgrade from the 160 gb drive - that's how I got to 157 hrs. of HD capacity. Do I need to run it again before I start the 1 tb to 2 tb upgrade?

Thanks,

BJ
Somewhere in the TiVo software it says to reserve some of one of the original MFS partitions for the "Showcases" it downloads or records in the middle of the night.

Supersize undoes that instruction. Once that's been done, it's been done, and just like cable card pairing and what your zip code is, it should survive backups, expansions, etc.

You can hook up the Hitachi, run WinMFS and tell it to supersize, and either it'll do it or tell you it can't or that it already has, I suspect.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:56 AM   #364
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Thank you so much. I have a new premiere that i have never set up. I'm getting a cable card next week. (I live in a fairly small town with only one cable provider. Cable cards are a new fangled invention around here. They don't even advertise them. I guess they think we are all stupid rednecks anyway.) I really wanted to upgrade to 2tb before i started using.
Go ahead and get your cable card(s) and everything else properly set up.

Then you can use jmfs to go to 2TB and put the original on the shelf, and both drives will be set up for your cable setup and zip code and such, so if you ever need to put the original drive back in as a troubleshooting measure, it'll already be set up the way it needs to be.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:45 PM   #365
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Go ahead and get your cable card(s) and everything else properly set up.

Then you can use jmfs to go to 2TB and put the original on the shelf, and both drives will be set up for your cable setup and zip code and such, so if you ever need to put the original drive back in as a troubleshooting measure, it'll already be set up the way it needs to be.
And you can charge your friends a case of beer to upgrade their new Premieres using your drive as the source. They'll just have to run "Clear and Delete Everything" to get it to work on their hardware.

PS: Don't do this if you don't want them to see your season passes and wish lists. E.g., the "naked elvis" keywords wish list could lead to some awkwardness if they stumble on it before they CADE.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:44 PM   #366
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And you can charge your friends a case of beer to upgrade their new Premieres using your drive as the source. They'll just have to run "Clear and Delete Everything" to get it to work on their hardware.

PS: Don't do this if you don't want them to see your season passes and wish lists. E.g., the "naked elvis" keywords wish list could lead to some awkwardness if they stumble on it before they CADE.
Naked young skinny elvis or naked old fat elvis?
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:06 PM   #367
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Naked young skinny elvis or naked old fat elvis?
"naked elvis" should catch both. Or...err...I'd have to assume that's the case anyway.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:11 AM   #368
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"naked elvis" should catch both. Or...err...I'd have to assume that's the case anyway.
No substitute for experience...
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:30 PM   #369
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......... I will give a report on my success (or lack of) later in the week when I've got the new drive and I'm done. Thanks again, [insert 3/16/12: thanking unitron]

BJ
WooHoo!! The process was actually easier than I had imagined. Thanks to Tivoitis for his original instructions on upgrading the TiVo HD to 2TB using JMFS, thanks to Commer for the original Premier upgrade process and the wonderful JMFS tool, thanks again to unitron for his guidance on fine tuning the process. I used a WD20EURS for my TiVo 652160 which already had a supersized Hitachi 1TB Deskstar HDD in it. Here are the steps I used for the upgrade:

1. Built an ISO image bootable disc containing the Hitachi feature tools, the latest Western Digital DLGDIAG tool, and WDIDLE3.EXE (if you use the WD20EURS you can use any DOS boot disk with the two Western Digital programs as the only reason for the Hitachi tools is to set the AAM to 128 and it is already there on the EURS....the Hitachi program is one way to to get a handy bootable CD however)

2. Ensured AAM setting with the Hitachi feature tool

3. Ran full diagnostic routine from the DLGDIAG menu (this takes awhile)

4. Ran WDIDLE3.EXE with the /r switch and discovered that in the case of my WD20EURS the idle timer had already been disabled. I then ran WDIDLE3 /d just to be safe and got the same message; that the idle timer was disabled

5. Disconnected my Windows HDD's (all SATA) and hooked up my Hitachi 1TB and the WD20EURS to my Asus P5B SATA 1 and 2 ports respectively

6. Booted with the JMFS boot disc and followed the menu instructions for a) first doing the [c] copy of my Hitachi drive to the Western Digital drive, and then b) doing the [e] expand function, and then c) selecting the [s] shutdown function and your pc will shutdown.

7. Since my Hitachi drive had already been supersized by winfms/mfslive when I did the original upgrade three or four years ago, those settings (the supersize settings) were copied over and I was pretty sure I didn't need to do anything further, but put the new WD20EURS into the TiVo HD box, which I did.

8. Went through a normal boot up, and then soft boot process, both successful, and the settings screen reports "account in good standing" and 318 hours of HD capacity available I went through and checked the movies that had been copy-protected and I wanted to keep on the TiVo HDD and they copied over in perfect order from the old Hitachi 1TB to the new WD 2TB So, all in all, I am a happy camper and very pleased with the process (there were many hours of HD programming that I wanted to keep and the copy process ran overnight). I will be making a donation to Commer for this most very useful tool JMFS. Thanks again to all for their help.

BJ
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:35 PM   #370
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.........4. Ran WDIDLE3.EXE with the /r switch and discovered that in the case of my WD20EURS the idle timer had already been disabled. I then ran WDIDLE3 /d just to be safe and got the same message; that the idle timer was disabled............
Alas, wdidle3.exe misled me, as others have reported it has with this very same model drive (EURS). For whatever reasons, the softboot showed a successful restart without any sign of trouble. My first hint of things amis was the dozen or so recordings I had queued up for copying over to "my tivo recordings" network drive on my PC overnight; the first recording failed about 40 minutes into the process, and I was intent on blaming my new installation of Windows 7 (first time I had used TiVo Desktop in that configuration). Then I sat down to watch some TV and noticed that it was a bit odd that a show I had deleted the day before was showing up back in the Now Playing list. I chocked that up to faulty memory (on my part) and went on to watch something that had been recorded only to see it freeze frame after about 10 minutes and then the "Welcome Powering Up Message" sign show up. Well, this goose chase went on for a little bit, each time degenerating......I got all the way through boot-up that first time while watching it; almost the second time (the intro video was running); and by the third time the oft spoken of loop was going on, but I was also looking at a GSOD....or so I thought.

I removed the drive, booted up the Hitachi PC Dos disc again that had the WD programs on it and ran the DLGDIAG program and found no errors (first good news) and then ran wdidle3 /s300 which in the last 24 hours has seemed to have solved the problem. Will report otherwise if I see some new bug crop up.

BJ
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:52 PM   #371
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........Will report otherwise if I see some new bug crop up.
Well, I am about to take the WD20EURS out and use it for archiving or some other home network use.....it does not seem to want to work in my TiVo HD. I couldn't even get 24 hrs. straight with the wdidle3 set to the maximum /s300. I found my unit in a loop when I went to watch a pre-recorded program. I was able to get through the cold boot process (kill power for 15 seconds, then power back up) but the inconsistancy/hit-or-miss nature of the performance of the drive means I can't trust the unit to record season passes or other scheduled shows if I'm not there to make sure it didn't go into never-never land and get it to wake up with a cold boot.

I almost went with the WD20EARS or WD20EARX; now I am beginning to wonder if I ought to just steer away from any Western Digital drive because of this doggone intellipark issue. Anyone have some suggestions? That old Hitachi worked well for three years - I wonder if I should try to stick with a Hitachi drive.

BJ
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:49 PM   #372
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Well, I am about to take the WD20EURS out and use it for archiving or some other home network use.....it does not seem to want to work in my TiVo HD. I couldn't even get 24 hrs. straight with the wdidle3 set to the maximum /s300. I found my unit in a loop when I went to watch a pre-recorded program. I was able to get through the cold boot process (kill power for 15 seconds, then power back up) but the inconsistancy/hit-or-miss nature of the performance of the drive means I can't trust the unit to record season passes or other scheduled shows if I'm not there to make sure it didn't go into never-never land and get it to wake up with a cold boot.

I almost went with the WD20EARS or WD20EARX; now I am beginning to wonder if I ought to just steer away from any Western Digital drive because of this doggone intellipark issue. Anyone have some suggestions? That old Hitachi worked well for three years - I wonder if I should try to stick with a Hitachi drive.

BJ
I'm wondering if the real problem is the "advanced format" (4K sectors). Is anyone using one of the new advanced-format WD drives with no problems? Of course it could be something else entirely.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:05 PM   #373
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I'm wondering if the real problem is the "advanced format" (4K sectors). Is anyone using one of the new advanced-format WD drives with no problems? Of course it could be something else entirely.
The copy process worked flawlessly. All of the old programs are pefectly intact. I don't think it is the format issue, I am pretty convinced by the behavior it is the idle timer or intellipark issu - It records perfectly as well when it doesn't "go to sleep". When it is in its narcoleptic fits, I can hear the disc spin down and a clicking noise that I believe has been reported elsewhere as the heads parking. So, the problem remains if there is a period of five minutes where the hard drive doesn't see a comand from the processor, the idle timer kicks in and parks the heads. What bothers me, is the wdidle3.exe program reporting the timer disabled in the begining, and then when I persisted by giving the /d command anyway and verifying it was still disabled I ran into the reboot loop problem pretty quick. But I am now seeing that the /s300 (five minutes) option doesn't get me home free either. Doggone I wish hard drives weren't so darned expesnive right now.......
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:35 PM   #374
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The copy process worked flawlessly. All of the old programs are pefectly intact. I don't think it is the format issue, I am pretty convinced by the behavior it is the idle timer or intellipark issu - It records perfectly as well when it doesn't "go to sleep". When it is in its narcoleptic fits, I can hear the disc spin down and a clicking noise that I believe has been reported elsewhere as the heads parking. So, the problem remains if there is a period of five minutes where the hard drive doesn't see a comand from the processor, the idle timer kicks in and parks the heads. What bothers me, is the wdidle3.exe program reporting the timer disabled in the begining, and then when I persisted by giving the /d command anyway and verifying it was still disabled I ran into the reboot loop problem pretty quick. But I am now seeing that the /s300 (five minutes) option doesn't get me home free either. Doggone I wish hard drives weren't so darned expesnive right now.......
Problems with 4K sectors would probably show up as symptoms that could be caused by timing glitches resulting from misalignment of TiVo's reading and writing activities. But I think others have used those drives with no obvious problems. Parking the heads would be a symptom of an IntelliPark issue, but surely that wouldn't spin the drive down, would it? (Anybody?)

Check your drive's power connections. I've seen (years ago) computer hard drives get flaky and even spin down because of a loose power connector. And if you can, check the output voltages of your power supply under load, especially the 12 volt. TiVo power supplies can fail, too. Look for bulging capacitors while you're in there. And check the specs to see how much power your drive draws. When I put a 1TB in my TiVo HD or a 2TB in my Premiere (I forget which now), I was surprised to see that it actually draws less power than the OEM drive. One reason people avoid 7200 rpm drives is that they draw more power (causing them to also generate more heat).
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:26 PM   #375
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The copy process worked flawlessly. All of the old programs are pefectly intact. I don't think it is the format issue, I am pretty convinced by the behavior it is the idle timer or intellipark issu - It records perfectly as well when it doesn't "go to sleep". When it is in its narcoleptic fits, I can hear the disc spin down and a clicking noise that I believe has been reported elsewhere as the heads parking. So, the problem remains if there is a period of five minutes where the hard drive doesn't see a comand from the processor, the idle timer kicks in and parks the heads. What bothers me, is the wdidle3.exe program reporting the timer disabled in the begining, and then when I persisted by giving the /d command anyway and verifying it was still disabled I ran into the reboot loop problem pretty quick. But I am now seeing that the /s300 (five minutes) option doesn't get me home free either. Doggone I wish hard drives weren't so darned expesnive right now.......
The hard drive in a TiVo is working every fraction of every second, if nothing else writing and reading back the 30 minute cache.

The only time it gets a break is when you pull the power cord out of the wall, or when the TiVo does a soft reboot.

It's the soft reboot where Intellipark causes problems.

Maybe you got a good model, but a bad indivual unit of that model.

Or maybe you copied over corrupt data from the Hitachi, and that's causing the problem.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:45 PM   #376
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The hard drive in a TiVo is working every fraction of every second, if nothing else writing and reading back the 30 minute cach........
I even tried getting it to record while trying to watch a different show previously recorded. All I know is, this afternoon when I first reported the bug, it was doing its reboot loop every couple of hours. My wife and I tried to watch an epsiode of Harry's Law this evening and we went from 10 minute increments to five minute increments to 30 seconds before giving up and killing power to the entire entertainment system - in other-words, the TiVo was going into reboot mode every few minutes even with obivous pronounced disc activity (I had no idea there was as much until unitron posted his coment above). I am going to put the old 1 TB Hitachi back in tomorrow and see what happens. While I am doing that, I will take a peek at voltages with the current HDD in it before I pull it.....I have already inspected the capacitors....all good there.

Thanks for the help everyone. This is getting a little frustrating.

BJ
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:42 AM   #377
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I even tried getting it to record while trying to watch a different show previously recorded. All I know is, this afternoon when I first reported the bug, it was doing its reboot loop every couple of hours. My wife and I tried to watch an epsiode of Harry's Law this evening and we went from 10 minute increments to five minute increments to 30 seconds before giving up and killing power to the entire entertainment system - in other-words, the TiVo was going into reboot mode every few minutes even with obivous pronounced disc activity (I had no idea there was as much until unitron posted his coment above). I am going to put the old 1 TB Hitachi back in tomorrow and see what happens. While I am doing that, I will take a peek at voltages with the current HDD in it before I pull it.....I have already inspected the capacitors....all good there.

Thanks for the help everyone. This is getting a little frustrating.

BJ
You mentioned wanting to save some of the stuff on the Hitachi.

If you haven't added any non-expendable recordings to the WD, download my TCD652160 images (that's your model number, right?) and use WinMFS to restore the .tbk one to the WD, but don't let it expand, just let it use the first 160GB.

Try that in your TiVo.

You'll have to go through Guided Setup and all that, but the software won't be suspect, so that eliminates a variable.

Actually if you have a known good SATA drive of 160GB or larger, that would work as well.

If the TiVo is currently soft-rebooting, but actually able to get past the welcome screen to the few more minutes screen and then on to TiVo Central and being able to watch live tv and change channels or play back recordings, even if it reboots again after a few minutes, then Intellipark is probably disabled, because with the factory default setting of 8 seconds, it prevents a reboot from ever getting past the welcome screen (which is on the motherboard) to the few more minutes screen (which is on the hard drive).

I suppose it is just barely possible that Intellipark is disabled by having the "no activity" period set to something high, like 5 minutes, which ordinarily would amount to the same thing, but that the Intellipark timer is not getting the message that drive activity is going on, even though it is, and so is putting the drive to sleep at the end of the 5 minutes, which would cause a reboot.

I consider the chances of that to be extremely unlikely and would suspect other causes first, like something wrong on the motherboard, or even more likely, something wrong with the power supply despite lack of visual evidence.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:44 PM   #378
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You mentioned wanting to save some of the stuff on the Hitachi.

If you haven't added any non-expendable recordings to the WD, ........Actually if you have a known good SATA drive of 160GB or larger, that would work as well.......
Thanks unitron, as you also suggested I may download your image for the TDC652160 - also, I do have a clean 1 TB drive (a WD10EVDS) and I also have the original 160 GB drive, although that was before cable made it out to my house (I live out in the boonies and in the foothills where ridge and tree-lines made satellite a no-go, but managed to get a decent digital signal from a roof-top antenna from Seattle) so the original drive will be sans cable card settings.

There is one show on the WD I am trying to copy off to my PC as I type this. I am now suspecting an issue with the power supply, tivo mother board, or the new WD that is heat related. I noted a pattern of the reboots getting closer and closer together the longer the unit had been running. After a cold soak overnight, we finally got through the show that we were trying to watch in five minute increments between reboots last night. I am hoping to get the 2 hrs of material copied off before it goes into loops, and then I will start some diagnostics - strange that none of this was going on before the drive upgrade. Just an occsasional freeze frame and stutter that made me think the Hitachi was showing its age.

BJ
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:10 PM   #379
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I am now suspecting an issue with the power supply, tivo mother board, or the new WD that is heat related. I noted a pattern of the reboots getting closer and closer together the longer the unit had been running. After a cold soak overnight, we finally got through the show that we were trying to watch in five minute increments between reboots last night. I am hoping to get the 2 hrs of material copied off before it goes into loops, and then I will start some diagnostics - strange that none of this was going on before the drive upgrade. Just an occsasional freeze frame and stutter that made me think the Hitachi was showing its age.

BJ
Have you verified that the cooling fan is working? They fail sometimes, too.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:15 AM   #380
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Have you verified that the cooling fan is working? They fail sometimes, too.
I had it apart and checked the fan operation, which appeared to be normal - it put out a pretty good draw. Hard drive power and data connections were all secure, and the cables looked to be fine. I checked no-load voltages coming from the power supply output to the motherboard and found votages of just over 3 vdc on one of the pins and just over 6 vdc on three or four of the others (sorry at this point I can't remember and it seems this is not the issue anyway at this point), with no voltage on the remaining pins (using a power supply mounting screw as the ground). Did not have a small enough probe to check votage output on the HDD power cord.

Put the original 160 GB HDD in and booted up and went through guided setup - unfortunately wound up with someone at Comcast who could see my cable card but could not understand how to flash it/pair it back up to my TiVo so I wound up with three year old programs (time capsule ) and the inability to watch in antenna reception because it kept trying to find cable channels the cable card wouldn't let it have - however, I think the culprit in all this may be pointing back to the WD20EURS. I replaced the hard drive in the middle of the Tivo having one of its reboot loops that wound up locking it into GSOD, so the good effects of last nights cold soak were long gone (and I didn't quite make the program transfer either....the unit's up time before the first re-boot was about three and a half hours - or about 20 minutes short of completing the program transfer). The original HDD has been running now for about three hours and no re-boots. If it is still awake tomorrow morning, I am going to put the 1 TB Hitachi back in and then ponder why the WD20EURS failed......and what is wrong with it since DLGDiagnostic dosn't report any errors. This continues to be a frustrating problem to chase out.

BJ
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:59 AM   #381
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I had it apart and checked the fan operation, which appeared to be normal - it put out a pretty good draw. Hard drive power and data connections were all secure, and the cables looked to be fine. I checked no-load voltages coming from the power supply output to the motherboard and found votages of just over 3 vdc on one of the pins and just over 6 vdc on three or four of the others (sorry at this point I can't remember and it seems this is not the issue anyway at this point), with no voltage on the remaining pins (using a power supply mounting screw as the ground). Did not have a small enough probe to check votage output on the HDD power cord.

Put the original 160 GB HDD in and booted up and went through guided setup - unfortunately wound up with someone at Comcast who could see my cable card but could not understand how to flash it/pair it back up to my TiVo so I wound up with three year old programs (time capsule ) and the inability to watch in antenna reception because it kept trying to find cable channels the cable card wouldn't let it have - however, I think the culprit in all this may be pointing back to the WD20EURS. I replaced the hard drive in the middle of the Tivo having one of its reboot loops that wound up locking it into GSOD, so the good effects of last nights cold soak were long gone (and I didn't quite make the program transfer either....the unit's up time before the first re-boot was about three and a half hours - or about 20 minutes short of completing the program transfer). The original HDD has been running now for about three hours and no re-boots. If it is still awake tomorrow morning, I am going to put the 1 TB Hitachi back in and then ponder why the WD20EURS failed......and what is wrong with it since DLGDiagnostic dosn't report any errors. This continues to be a frustrating problem to chase out.

BJ
The orange wire (I think there's only one) should be +3.3V, the red wire(s) should be +5V, and the yellow wire(s) should be +12V, and the black wires are all ground, which is always supposed to read 0V relative to ground.

You can wrap a couple of layers of paper towel around a hard drive and put it in the freezer overnight before doing something stressful to it.

The paper towel keeps moisture from condensing on it when you bring it out of the freezer and as a bonus leaves all the skin on your hands instead of the drive case.
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:23 AM   #382
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You can wrap a couple of layers of paper towel around a hard drive and put it in the freezer overnight before doing something stressful to it.

The paper towel keeps moisture from condensing on it when you bring it out of the freezer and as a bonus leaves all the skin on your hands instead of the drive case.
Is that called "freeze drive"...
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:46 AM   #383
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Is that called "freeze drive"...

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Old 03-21-2012, 10:30 PM   #384
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The orange wire (I think there's only one) should be +3.3V, the red wire(s) should be +5V, and the yellow wire(s) should be +12V, and the black wires are all ground, which is always supposed to read 0V relative to ground.

You can wrap a couple of layers of paper towel around a hard drive and put it in the freezer overnight before doing something stressful to it.

The paper towel keeps moisture from condensing on it when you bring it out of the freezer and as a bonus leaves all the skin on your hands instead of the drive case.
Thanks unitron.....I'm having enough trouble without freezing my drive though Actually it is my drive that is freezing my Tivo

Turns out the no-load voltages I was taking from the power supply weren't really telling me anything. So I made a probe that could get where it needed to go while stuck on an alligator clip and made voltage checks with the original 160 GB drive still in the unit (which ran overnight just fine - no rebooting). I got the expected voltages that unitron said I should get from the approtiate colored wires. I was able to check the yellow and red leads for the power cable to the HDD as well (under no load however) and they showed 5.1 vdc and 7.1 vdc respectively.

I put the Hitachi 1 TB drive back in and it has been running all afternoon (in excess of four hours) without any reboots - unfortunately, the cable card issue that came up with sticking the original 160 GB HDD in goobered up my HBO channel settings that were on the Hitachi and even calling Comcast and getting the cable card paired again to authorize the movie channels did nothing for the Tivo to see them. All I managed to get from Comcast flashing the card was going from seeing the cable card screen whenever I tried to access a HBO channel to seeing a blank screen with the HBO logo in the upper right hand corner. Now, I 'm going to need to go get a new cable card before I try to do a JMFS transfer to a different 2 TB drive. I got my hands on a Hitachi HDS7230BLA642 locally and was going try the copy tonight, but now I'd be copying bad cable card pairing data over so I'll wait unitl I get that part fixed.

Still leaves the question of what went wrong with the WD20EURS drive......of course I'm still assuming my PC/CPU did not pass anyting along during the JMFS copy that would have caused an issue (hence I really want to try a different drive and see what happens). With an Asus P5B, Intell dual core processor, and a JMicron Sata2 expander (used to connect my Thermaltake hot swap rack) I have a pretty low-tech but robust platform. I did have the 1 TB Hitachi in the hot swap bay during the JMFS copy - I doubt there was any issue there, it just recognizes drives in that bay as additional drives (it is not set up as a raid controller).

I'll post again once I've fixed the cable card issue and have copied and expanded using the new Hitachi 2 TB drive instead this time.

BJ
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:52 PM   #385
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Thanks unitron.....I'm having enough trouble without freezing my drive though Actually it is my drive that is freezing my Tivo

Turns out the no-load voltages I was taking from the power supply weren't really telling me anything. So I made a probe that could get where it needed to go while stuck on an alligator clip and made voltage checks with the original 160 GB drive still in the unit (which ran overnight just fine - no rebooting). I got the expected voltages that unitron said I should get from the approtiate colored wires. I was able to check the yellow and red leads for the power cable to the HDD as well (under no load however) and they showed 5.1 vdc and 7.1 vdc respectively. ...

BJ
The yellow wire that runs to the hard drive and the yellow wire that runs to the plug that goes into the socket on the motherboard both connect to the same place on the power supply. There is only one +12V output section to the power supply, and the motherboard and the hard drive share it. No matter where you measure either yellow wire, you should get +12V referenced to ground (any of the black wires or the metal chassis itself).

The red wire going to the hard drive is connected at the same place on the power supply as all of the other red wires.

Same deal as the yellow wires, except this time it's the only +5V output on the power supply and any red wire should read +5V relative to ground.


If you accidentally measured between the red wire and the yellow wire, the difference between +5 and +12 is +7. In other words, +12V is 7V more positive than +5V. Computer case modders sometimes do this on purpose to run 12V fans on 7V to make them slower and less noisy.

But there's nothing in a TiVo that needs 7V.

Trying to measure inside SATA power plugs is much trickier than the old 4 pin Molex sockets used on PATA/IDE drives.


To measure TiVo voltages, clip the black lead to the chassis on the side away from the power supply and stick the red lead probe down into the individual holes of the back of the plug that goes into the socket on the motherboard.

If you have steady hands and no alligator clip for the black lead probe, stick it into one of the holes with a black wire as far from the colored wire you wish to measure as possible to avoid accidentally shorting them together.

All the black wires are tied together at the power supply where they are soldered to an area of copper that also extends to the screw holes on the power supply circuit board, so all of them and the metal chassis are at the same potential, electrically speaking.


All of the red wires are joined electrically at the power supply circuit board and are therefore electrically identical.

Same with the 2 yellow wires.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:22 PM   #386
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The yellow wire that runs to the hard drive and the yellow wire that runs to the plug that goes into the socket on the motherboard both connect to the same place on the power supply. There is only one +12V output section to the power supply, and the motherboard and the hard drive share it.......(snip)....
Thanks once again unitron. The plot thickens, although it may be headed in a direction that unitron may have (am I putting words in your mouth? ) suspected all along and that is the power supply; I had my first spontaneous reboot with the Hitachi 1 TB drive running in the unit, and it happened at a really rotten time - in the middle of guided setup as I was fixing the cable card issue from the problem I spoke of in an earlier post. The screen was stuck on the first "Welcome Powering Up" message and didn't move off of it. I cycled power after a 15 second delay, and it booted up normally, and I was able to finish guided setup. That was the only reboot so far this evening.

The no-load voltage readings I received from the power supply connector that goes to the mother board continue to bother me in that I never saw a 12 volt reading; only after loading by plugging the power supply in and plugging the hard drive cable in did I get the 12 volt reading on the yellow cable using my improvised probe on the connector.

I am not familiar with power supplies that regulate their voltage down when no load is sensed and I thought that there would be a constant voltage maintained despite current draw. Also, when I took the no-load voltage readings I could hear a capacitor discharging every half second or so (a rhythmic click-click-click-click-click, and so on). I just do not know enough about power supplies to nail if that capacitor discharging is a sure sign of trouble going on, or a normal operational mode for the large capacitor on the board.

The no-load voltages were 3.3 vdc on the orange leads, 5.1 vdc on the red leads, and a varied (not study but bouncing) voltage of 6.5 - 7.1 vdc on the yellow lead.

Does anyone have any similar result for a no-load voltage test? What about the capacitor discharge noise? I am going to postpone doing a JFMS copy onto the 2 TB Hitachi drive I picked up yesterday until I can get a better idea of whether the power supply is a prime suspect. If there should be a 12 vdc reading on the yellow lead regardless of load, then if I could be pointed to a member that sells refurbed or new power supplies, that would be great - - I am going to be heading out of town in a week and a half and I would like to get this issue resolved so that I've got both capacity and a functional Tivo to record in my absence.

Thanks to everyone who has followed this weird path. If we were all to conclude "it was the power supply that done it", I think we could also surmise for whatever reasons, the Hitachi drive was less susceptible to the culprit than the WD20EURS was.

BJ
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:20 AM   #387
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Thanks once again unitron. The plot thickens, although it may be headed in a direction that unitron may have (am I putting words in your mouth? ) suspected all along and that is the power supply; I had my first spontaneous reboot with the Hitachi 1 TB drive running in the unit, and it happened at a really rotten time - in the middle of guided setup as I was fixing the cable card issue from the problem I spoke of in an earlier post. The screen was stuck on the first "Welcome Powering Up" message and didn't move off of it. I cycled power after a 15 second delay, and it booted up normally, and I was able to finish guided setup. That was the only reboot so far this evening.

The no-load voltage readings I received from the power supply connector that goes to the mother board continue to bother me in that I never saw a 12 volt reading; only after loading by plugging the power supply in and plugging the hard drive cable in did I get the 12 volt reading on the yellow cable using my improvised probe on the connector.

I am not familiar with power supplies that regulate their voltage down when no load is sensed and I thought that there would be a constant voltage maintained despite current draw. Also, when I took the no-load voltage readings I could hear a capacitor discharging every half second or so (a rhythmic click-click-click-click-click, and so on). I just do not know enough about power supplies to nail if that capacitor discharging is a sure sign of trouble going on, or a normal operational mode for the large capacitor on the board.

The no-load voltages were 3.3 vdc on the orange leads, 5.1 vdc on the red leads, and a varied (not study but bouncing) voltage of 6.5 - 7.1 vdc on the yellow lead.

Does anyone have any similar result for a no-load voltage test? What about the capacitor discharge noise? I am going to postpone doing a JFMS copy onto the 2 TB Hitachi drive I picked up yesterday until I can get a better idea of whether the power supply is a prime suspect. If there should be a 12 vdc reading on the yellow lead regardless of load, then if I could be pointed to a member that sells refurbed or new power supplies, that would be great - - I am going to be heading out of town in a week and a half and I would like to get this issue resolved so that I've got both capacity and a functional Tivo to record in my absence.

Thanks to everyone who has followed this weird path. If we were all to conclude "it was the power supply that done it", I think we could also surmise for whatever reasons, the Hitachi drive was less susceptible to the culprit than the WD20EURS was.

BJ
With switching supplies, you can't assume lack of output in an unloaded condition means the same thing it does in the old style big heavy transformer before the AC is turned into DC type supplies.

I would measure TiVo PS voltages only with either the motherboard connected, or the hard drive connected, if not both.

In your case, I'd recommend hooking up the motherboard, clipping the meter's ground lead to the chassis on the side away from the power supply, sticking the red meter lead's metal probe tip down into the hole in the mobo plug into which the yellow wire goes, so that it's wedged against the metal end of the wire, then plug in the TiVo (have the cord already in the back of the TiVo, do the plugging and unplugging at the wall socket), and see what reading you get (already have the meter set on the right range).

It should read +12V, or right close.

Then plug the combo data/power lead into the hard drive and see how much change, if any, there is in the reading. It should stay steady.

Then unplug stuff and do it again, only this time start by measuring one of the red wires at the motherboard, which should read right around +5V, and then add the drive again, and see if the reading holds steady.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:25 PM   #388
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.....(snip).......In your case, I'd recommend hooking up the motherboard, clipping the meter's ground lead to the chassis on the side away from the power supply, sticking the red meter lead's metal probe tip down into the hole in the mobo plug into which the yellow wire goes, so that it's wedged against the metal end of the wire, then plug in the TiVo (have the cord already in the back of the TiVo, do the plugging and unplugging at the wall socket), and see what reading you get (already have the meter set on the right range).

It should read +12V, or right close.

Then plug the combo data/power lead into the hard drive and see how much change, if any, there is in the reading. It should stay steady.

Then unplug stuff and do it again, only this time start by measuring one of the red wires at the motherboard, which should read right around +5V, and then add the drive again, and see if the reading holds steady.
Thanks unitron. I did have two more spontaneous reboots with the 1 TB Hitachi; once in the middle of the night when I was up, I happened to check it and found it was stuck on the first "Welcome Powering Up" screen. I recycled power with the 15 second delay and it booted up normally. This morning I found it stuck on the first powering up screen again. FWIW, these symptoms were not present before I started down the JMFS upgrade path; as I mentioned in my earliest posts, the only aging issue with this drive was an occasional freeze frame of a few seconds or a few seconds of stutter framing.

The voltage tests revealed no change on the red leads; at the mobo plug (with the PS plugged into the MB) during power-up, before hard drive connection, and after the hard drive combo data/power plug was snapped on, I got a consistent + 4.9 vdc at the mobo plug lead and the hard drive power lead.

A little bit different story on the yellow lead. With the mobo plug connected to the MB and the hard drive disconnected, I got a + 12.4 vdc reading at the mobo plug lead as well as the yellow lead on the hard drive connector. With my Fluke meter's probe lodged in the mobo plug's yellow lead slot as you suggested, the moment I snapped the hard drive connector on, the voltage dropped to 11.4 and swung between 11.4 and 11.8 during boot- up. The further into boot the drive progressed, the closer to + 12.0 vdc the reading got. It stabilized at + 12.1 vdc.

This time I did notice the cooling fan spun down. It did not spin all the way down to a halt, but it spun down to the point where it was not drawing much air.....I would have to say the cooling efficiency would have sucked. In fact, I probably mistook the cooling fan spin-down as disc spin down when I reported hearing the same on the WD20EURS in an earlier post.

So, do the voltage fluctuations suggest the power supply? Does the fact that we seem to be stuck at either the GSOD (when the WD20EURS was doing its reboot loops) or the first power-up screen mean the MB is dying? I really hope we can find the answer soon (and without putting my 160 GB drive back in as I would hate to go through the cable card fiasco with Comcast again). Or could it possibly be as simple as the cooling fan spinning down and everything overheating as David M mentioned a few posts back??

Really do appreciate the group's help here.

Thanks,

BJ
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:44 PM   #389
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Thanks unitron. I did have two more spontaneous reboots with the 1 TB Hitachi; once in the middle of the night when I was up, I happened to check it and found it was stuck on the first "Welcome Powering Up" screen. I recycled power with the 15 second delay and it booted up normally. This morning I found it stuck on the first powering up screen again. FWIW, these symptoms were not present before I started down the JMFS upgrade path; as I mentioned in my earliest posts, the only aging issue with this drive was an occasional freeze frame of a few seconds or a few seconds of stutter framing.

The voltage tests revealed no change on the red leads; at the mobo plug (with the PS plugged into the MB) during power-up, before hard drive connection, and after the hard drive combo data/power plug was snapped on, I got a consistent + 4.9 vdc at the mobo plug lead and the hard drive power lead.

A little bit different story on the yellow lead. With the mobo plug connected to the MB and the hard drive disconnected, I got a + 12.4 vdc reading at the mobo plug lead as well as the yellow lead on the hard drive connector. With my Fluke meter's probe lodged in the mobo plug's yellow lead slot as you suggested, the moment I snapped the hard drive connector on, the voltage dropped to 11.4 and swung between 11.4 and 11.8 during boot- up. The further into boot the drive progressed, the closer to + 12.0 vdc the reading got. It stabilized at + 12.1 vdc.

This time I did notice the cooling fan spun down. It did not spin all the way down to a halt, but it spun down to the point where it was not drawing much air.....I would have to say the cooling efficiency would have sucked. In fact, I probably mistook the cooling fan spin-down as disc spin down when I reported hearing the same on the WD20EURS in an earlier post.

So, do the voltage fluctuations suggest the power supply? Does the fact that we seem to be stuck at either the GSOD (when the WD20EURS was doing its reboot loops) or the first power-up screen mean the MB is dying? I really hope we can find the answer soon (and without putting my 160 GB drive back in as I would hate to go through the cable card fiasco with Comcast again). Or could it possibly be as simple as the cooling fan spinning down and everything overheating as David M mentioned a few posts back??

Really do appreciate the group's help here.

Thanks,

BJ
You can't really make any assumptions based on what the fan does when the cover is off.

The fan's speed is controlled by the motherboard based on a temperature sensor on the motherboard.

That fluctuation in the 12 V line is probably at the outside edge of the allowable variation while remaining in spec.

Measure the 12V line again, this time with drive attached, plug TiVo into wall socket while watching meter, and see what happens.

When the drive first spins up is when it would draw the most current and pull down the voltage the most, but the power supply is supposed to be able to keep the voltage fairly steady in the face of current demand changes.

You might want to take the power supply out (watch out for the little screw that goes through the back panel from the outside into the top of the AC input socket, needs a #8 or #9 Torx), and looking at where the yellow wires enter it, turn it over and look at that particular area of copper, and then find the capacitor or capacitors whose + lead connects to that and whose - lead connects to the copper area which the black wires connect to and which also are where the screw holes are, that's ground.

Even if that cap or those caps don't look bad, consider going ahead and replacing it or them.

And examine all of the other caps very closely as well.

Check out the picture here

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=479176

for how subtle the visual clues can be.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:25 AM   #390
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.....(snip)....That fluctuation in the 12 V line is probably at the outside edge of the allowable variation while remaining in spec.

Measure the 12V line again, this time with drive attached, plug TiVo into wall socket while watching meter, and see what happens........(snip again)....

Even if that cap or those caps don't look bad, consider going ahead and replacing it or them.

And examine all of the other caps very closely as well.

Check out the picture here

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=479176

for how subtle the visual clues can be.
OK, if I understood unitron's directions, I started this time with the Fluke meter's probe lodged in the power supply mother board connector's yellow lead, and then cycled power on; voltage reads are as follows, all + volts dc: 12.3 for less than a second, then immediately dropping to 11.3-11.5 for first minute of boot; 11.5 -11-8 for second minute of boot; 11.8 for third minute of boot; 11-8 12.2 after boot complete and voltage stabilized at 12.2 this time.

I've got some programming I'm trying to record tonight. I will take the power supply out tomorrow morning and inspect the solder connections and also really scrutinize the capacitors - - I wasn't looking for chubby guys, I thought the ones with split tops and oozing innards were the signs of DOA....apparently there are some subtle signs of impending doom as those photos show.

Replacing the caps will take me back to my Heathkit building days too bad you have to have crappy consumer electronics to get the good old Heathkit experience any more. In terms of expediency, would it be wise to put in a new/refurb power supply? I could always do the cap replacement and hang on to this one as a back-up. It seemed to me I saw a link somewhere in one of the forums for replacement power supplies - - anybody got any ideas?

Thanks again for the help. I'll report back on the capacitor inspection when complete. Any comments on the voltages I reported in this latest test would be appreciated as well.

BJ
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