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Old 03-07-2011, 08:49 PM   #751
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Thank you comer!

Just upgraded to a WD20EARS... What a voyage. First, it turned out that jmfs couldn't find my drives mounted to a usb dock (strike one). So I tried again from my laptop (strike two). Went back to the desktop and pulled the sata connectors from my HDD and DVD. Ooops... no DVD, so I moved jmfs to a bootable usb thumb drive. Reboot. Found the TiVo HDD, but not the WD20EARS... arrrggghhh... oops... inadvertently pulled the sata connector from the mobo... 3 hours later, finished supersize

Detached the TiVo HDD and reconnected the desktop DVD and set AAM to 128 with the Hitachi tool. Lastly wdidle3... but it wouldn't run from CD... so back to the bootable thumb drive... even though the WD20EARS is dated December 2010, reset intellipark from 8 sec to 300 sec. Installed new drive in Premiere, came up in 6 minutes w/o network... then soft reboot w/network... and (whew) all is well. Now I have to put the desktop pc back together.... Tomorrow, lol.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:50 PM   #752
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BUT I'll bet you don't have a bad disk. Mine has done the freeze/reboot dance and I'm thinking the disk is OK. After I restarted to TV to clear HDCP confusion, my Premiere has stayed up but I've still gotten signs of impending failure with drops and slowdowns.

One suggestion so far has to been to see how solid the operation is when you keep the Ethernet cable unplugged as much as possible - with the SD menus. The HD menus will complain endlessly about no net access.
Ok, so I did take the suggestion to disconnecting network and it seems that the freeze / reboot problem went away and when I put in my network cable again, that after sometime freeze / reboot occurs. I did not have this problem with the original drive, so what have changed? More importantly what can be done to fix this?

Tivo is connected to a wireless router that's bridged to the main router. Have had this setup for sometime and nothing changed recently.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:29 PM   #753
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Our 2TB upgraded TiVo Premiere XL rebooted and froze two nights ago. It was recording two programs at the time and I accessed Netflix. The screen went black a moment after I clicked on "Netflix" and TiVo rebooted. In addition, once it came back it was completely unresponsive (for a time) to all remote commands. The green menu background appeared once it booted up, but without any text. The amber front panel light blinked each time a button was pressed on the remote, but no activity. I let it sit for about three minutes and tried it again and finally got back to TiVo Central. It's been fine since then but I haven't had time to try Netflix on our TiVo again.

I ended up accessing Netflix on our Apple TV2 and it worked fine. I also downloaded an HD movie from Amazon VOD to our TiVo the next night and that worked fine (although I did see more macroblocking than normal).

This and several other network-related problem posts is also making me wonder if there's a connection between upgraded TiVo's using the jmfs program and network induced issues.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:35 PM   #754
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Were you using the HD interface? I have heard it can freeze/reboot with Netflix.

I am sticking with the SD interface for now. The (incomplete, unstable) HD menus just piss me off. And the SD menus are blazing fast.

That said, I have had instances where using the iPad app to start a show has "unfrozen" an unresponsive Premiere.
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:45 PM   #755
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I'm right there with you regarding the HD menus. I use SD menus exclusively. I switch to the HD menus now and then just to see if they behave any better than they used to, but get ticked off and go back to the SD menus.

This was only the second time the Premiere had an issue since I upgraded a little more than a month ago. At that time I checked the connections and found the HDMI cable a little loose so attributed it to that.

I'll have to try the iPad app if it freezes up again.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:49 PM   #756
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Doing a quick test with Netflix on one of our (jmfs upgraded) Premiere's now.

Both tuners recording (two red dots), went into Netflix, menu comes up OK.

Clicked Play on Serenity (HD). Playing fine.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:56 PM   #757
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Doing a quick test with Netflix on one of our (jmfs upgraded) Premiere's now.

Both tuners recording (two red dots), went into Netflix, menu comes up OK.

Clicked Play on Serenity (HD). Playing fine.
Thanks for checking. That's good news. Again, it may be a fluke, but since there are several reports of problems occurring that seemed to be network-oriented it's a bit of a worry, particularly since nothing like that ever happened with the OEM drive. Only time will tell I guess.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:57 PM   #758
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Houston...we have a glitch

I finally found time to try and recreate the reboot/freeze on our upgraded (2TB) Premiere XL when using Netflix that I posted about earlier.

This time I had one recording in progress. From TiVo Central I once again headed to my Netflix Instant Queue. It opened and I was able to start playing back several movies and TV shows without any problem. HOWEVER when I backed out of Netflix and returned to the regular TiVo menus the background was black. I'm still using SD menus so no red, green, blue, etc. backgrounds, just text. Unlike before TiVo responded to the remote commands normally.

HOWEVER Part II...when I tried playing several recordings the screen remained black. The progress bar showed on the screen initially as normal, but no video. I could FF or RW even, but the counter stayed at :00...nothing.

I ended up performing a menu restart and TiVo booted back up and then acted normally afterward.

I tried Netflix again, just as I had before and then backed out to the regular menus, played recordings, etc. and everything performed normally. I even went into other IP source materials including Amazon VOD, YouTube, etc. and all was fine.

Soooo...I've no idea if this is a Netflix thing, a Premiere thing, an upgraded Premiere thing, a jmfs thing...or what. I know this never happened with the OEM hard drive. I also know that it's going to stick in the back of my mind now and I do NOT like having to worry if TiVo is going to perform properly or not.

Going forward I'll probably just use our Apple TV2 to watch Netflix (in fact the PQ via the Apple TV is generally better than on the TiVo) but it bothers me that there may be some sort of network problem with TiVo's that have been upgraded using the jmfs program. It may be a coincidence but I've experienced it three times now and there are several other posts about similar issues here as well.

If anyone runs into anything unusual...be sure to post so we can evaluate what it might be and hopefully figure out how to address it. TIA!
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:40 AM   #759
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My freeze then reboot occurs even when I'm not accessing any network feature which is odd. It's mostly happens while I am watching a recorded show, don't recall if it happens while watching live. The symptom is it'll always freeze, then unfreeze for 2-3 sec, then freeze again follow by a reboot, all the while the tivo would not response to any remote command, no light register on the front panel. Once I caught it where it wouldn't response to the remote and I knew the freeze was coming and it did.

So far with my bridge router shut off, I have not experience the issue. I'm really baffled by this. Could the supersizing of the drive taken up space that Tivo wants for their ads?
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:36 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
I finally found time to try and recreate the reboot/freeze on our upgraded (2TB) Premiere XL when using Netflix that I posted about earlier.

...

Soooo...I've no idea if this is a Netflix thing, a Premiere thing, an upgraded Premiere thing, a jmfs thing...or what. I know this never happened with the OEM hard drive. I also know that it's going to stick in the back of my mind now and I do NOT like having to worry if TiVo is going to perform properly or not.

Going forward I'll probably just use our Apple TV2 to watch Netflix (in fact the PQ via the Apple TV is generally better than on the TiVo) but it bothers me that there may be some sort of network problem with TiVo's that have been upgraded using the jmfs program. It may be a coincidence but I've experienced it three times now and there are several other posts about similar issues here as well.

If anyone runs into anything unusual...be sure to post so we can evaluate what it might be and hopefully figure out how to address it. TIA!
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My freeze then reboot occurs even when I'm not accessing any network feature which is odd. It's mostly happens while I am watching a recorded show, don't recall if it happens while watching live. The symptom is it'll always freeze, then unfreeze for 2-3 sec, then freeze again follow by a reboot, all the while the tivo would not response to any remote command, no light register on the front panel. Once I caught it where it wouldn't response to the remote and I knew the freeze was coming and it did.

So far with my bridge router shut off, I have not experience the issue. I'm really baffled by this. Could the supersizing of the drive taken up space that Tivo wants for their ads?
You guys are running into exactly what I did with my 2TB upgrade. I could also tell the crash/reboot was coming on by drops, stutters, and remote no response.

Rich, for one thing, the crash after NetFlix abort bug is what TivoJerry says is fixed in the new software update for the Series 3, so it may also be present in the S4TP.

If there is some problem with the way that jmfs configures a 2TB drive, we need to know how many have been 100% OK.

I think I had problems only when the new 2TB drive was nearly full with 100s of suggestions after 2-3 weeks of life, and it first made itself known with a network upload. I did get some rare audio drops and pixellation glitches from day 1 but they didn't concern me. I have had few to none since going back to the OEM drive and letting it settle.

If there a way to view the system log - even if not over the network? Can I find it on the drive itself?

I'm going to burn in/soak the failed 2TB drive if possible to see if it really is defective.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:10 PM   #761
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My freeze then reboot occurs even when I'm not accessing any network feature which is odd. It's mostly happens while I am watching a recorded show, don't recall if it happens while watching live. The symptom is it'll always freeze, then unfreeze for 2-3 sec, then freeze again follow by a reboot, all the while the tivo would not response to any remote command, no light register on the front panel. Once I caught it where it wouldn't response to the remote and I knew the freeze was coming and it did.

So far with my bridge router shut off, I have not experience the issue. I'm really baffled by this. Could the supersizing of the drive taken up space that Tivo wants for their ads?
I'd pull the Ethernet cable to see if things improve, but I've only experienced issues when accessing the network...otherwise it runs fine. That yours runs okay with the network basically off is worrisome. FWIW I don't think Supersize would impact performance with respect to freezing, etc. or we would have seen that in earlier upgrades.

Quote:
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You guys are running into exactly what I did with my 2TB upgrade. I could also tell the crash/reboot was coming on by drops, stutters, and remote no response.

Rich, for one thing, the crash after NetFlix abort bug is what TivoJerry says is fixed in the new software update for the Series 3, so it may also be present in the S4TP.

If there is some problem with the way that jmfs configures a 2TB drive, we need to know how many have been 100% OK.

I think I had problems only when the new 2TB drive was nearly full with 100s of suggestions after 2-3 weeks of life, and it first made itself known with a network upload. I did get some rare audio drops and pixellation glitches from day 1 but they didn't concern me. I have had few to none since going back to the OEM drive and letting it settle.

If there a way to view the system log - even if not over the network? Can I find it on the drive itself?

I'm going to burn in/soak the failed 2TB drive if possible to see if it really is defective.
I know TiVo Level 2 folks can read individual DVR logs, but I only know enough to be dangerous so I'm not sure if any logs are viewable if you pull and read the drive. My 2TB drive is less than 50% full so it doesn't seem to be a capacity sort of thing. I didn't know about the Netflix "bug". I'll have to read up on that...thanks for the tip.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:47 AM   #762
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Been asleep at the wheel...found a thread discussing a Netflix reboot problem with TiVo Premiere's. So it may have (hopefully) nothing to do with the upgrade.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:56 AM   #763
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Apparently this is fixed via a recent software update for the TiVoHD's and S3's.

So... when can we expect the same for the "Premiere" boxes?
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:11 AM   #764
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Apparently this is fixed via a recent software update for the TiVoHD's and S3's.

So... when can we expect the same for the "Premiere" boxes?
I hope an update will fix it, but based on TiVoJerry's description, the S3/HD issue was caused by using Netflix and experiencing a lost network connection...which as far as I can tell isn't what's happening with our Premiere. The first time TiVo rebooted when I clicked on Netflix. I suppose there could have been a coincidental loss at that moment, but it doesn't seem likely. The second time I accessed and played Netflix Instant Queue content without any problem...the problem showed up after returning to normal TiVo menus. They had no background and no recordings would play until the unit was rebooted.

Both situations tell me that it's Netflix/TiVo related, but not due to a lost network connection.

Whatever the case, I would indeed like to see them address the issues, whatever they are.

Last edited by richsadams : 03-11-2011 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Corrected poor grammar.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:35 PM   #765
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anyone able to do this with an imac? I don't have a PC for SATA support.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:46 AM   #766
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anyone able to do this with an imac? I don't have a PC for SATA support.
Yes, you can use two individual USB docks or adapters (not a dual dock). If you search you can probably find a couple of posts from folks that have done this successfully.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:38 AM   #767
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anyone able to do this with an imac? I don't have a PC for SATA support.
The jmfs bootable CD works only in the Intel Macs, though. Or at least that's what I thought.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:41 AM   #768
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The jmfs bootable CD works only in the Intel Macs, though. Or at least that's what I thought.
That's possible, but I'm not sure why that would be the case since it's a Linux based program. It would be good to know though.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:07 PM   #769
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That's possible, but I'm not sure why that would be the case since it's a Linux based program. It would be good to know though.
There's certainly Linux kernels compiled to work on the older processors (G4?), and the jmfs source could be compiled for it. But the jmfs image has only the one bootable kernel, Intel.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:08 PM   #770
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There's certainly Linux kernels compiled to work on the older processors (G4?), and the jmfs source could be compiled for it. But the jmfs image has only the one bootable kernel, Intel.
Ah, I did not know that.
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:44 PM   #771
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WD20EURS vs WD20EVDS for THD and Premiere, which is better?

Hey guys. I am debating which western digital hard drive to buy.

I am looking at buying either a WD20EURS or a WD20EVDS. I would buy the WD20EURS but I am concerned about the whole advanced formatting issues.

I currently have a THD with a 1tb drive, upgraded using winMFS and a stock Tivo Premiere. I plan on upgrading the Premiere now and the THD in the future.

Are their any known issues with using the WD20EURS and the THD together?

Which drive is the better buy guys? I can't decide. Newegg is selling them for a $10 difference.

The EURS has a 64mb buffer compared to 32mb with the EVDS......

power consumption:

WD20EURS: Read/Write @ 4.5W, Idle @ 4.0W
WD20EVDS: Read/Write @ 5.9W, Idle @ 4.9W

but does the advanced formatting slow the THD or the Premiere down at all by installing an advanced format drive such as a WD20EURS?

I am so confused.....



Thanks guys,
Scott
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:04 PM   #772
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Hey guys. I am debating which western digital hard drive to buy.

I am looking at buying either a WD20EURS or a WD20EVDS. I would buy the WD20EURS but I am concerned about the whole advanced formatting issues.

I currently have a THD with a 1tb drive, upgraded using winMFS and a stock Tivo Premiere. I plan on upgrading the Premiere now and the THD in the future.

Are their any known issues with using the WD20EURS and the THD together?

Which drive is the better buy guys? I can't decide. Newegg is selling them for a $10 difference.

The EURS has a 64mb buffer compared to 32mb with the EVDS......

power consumption:

WD20EURS: Read/Write @ 4.5W, Idle @ 4.0W
WD20EVDS: Read/Write @ 5.9W, Idle @ 4.9W

but does the advanced formatting slow the THD or the Premiere down at all by installing an advanced format drive such as a WD20EURS?

I am so confused.....



Thanks guys,
Scott
Welcome to the forum. Nothing to be confused about, either drive will work fine. "Formatting issues" are not relevant to TiVo. Both drives are A/V dedicated drives so no need to make any adjustments. Both of these drives are being used successfully by folks here.

FWIW they are both cheaper at amazon.com and Amazon has a "friendlier" return policy.

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digita...0050098&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/WD-AV-GP-WD20E...0050472&sr=1-2

Happy upgrading!
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:57 PM   #773
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I upgraded my Premiere XL to a 2TB WD20EARS, from Amazon for $79, without too much trouble:
tofu.org/drupal/node/180

I was unable to see the drive using the Hitachi Feature Tool, so I did not adjust the AAM. I can't hear the drive anyway. Intellipark seems to be a non-issue for me as well.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:41 PM   #774
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I am thinking WD20EURS for my Tivo Premiere.

Thanks for the info guys. I am thinking I am going to go with the WD20EURS in my Premiere. Although the WD20EURS is more expensive than the WD20EARS, I personally like the reduced power use and at the same time, the 64 mb buffer should at least in theory result in a faster working drive with less issues than the WD20EVDS.

Also, from what I understand, advanced format drives should actually help to reduce drive errors, which is one of the reasons's why hard drive makers are going with advanced format drives in the new larger drives they are making. So, it would seem to be a natural choice to go with an advanced format drive if they do not slow the Tivo down at all.

I would have no problem doing adjustments to the WD20EARS but, a drive that costs $30-40 more and is made to run continuously should at least in theory be better able to handle the rigors of being in a Tivo, running all the time. So once again, this is why I am thinking of getting the WD20EURS.

Please reply back if you guys have experienced anything different or know of anything different with these specific drives, as I do not currently own any of the drives and it is is hard to compare the difference with the way drives "should be" as to the way they actually function.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:47 AM   #775
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Thanks for the info guys. I am thinking I am going to go with the WD20EURS in my Premiere. Although the WD20EURS is more expensive than the WD20EARS, I personally like the reduced power use and at the same time, the 64 mb buffer should at least in theory result in a faster working drive with less issues than the WD20EVDS.

Also, from what I understand, advanced format drives should actually help to reduce drive errors, which is one of the reasons's why hard drive makers are going with advanced format drives in the new larger drives they are making. So, it would seem to be a natural choice to go with an advanced format drive if they do not slow the Tivo down at all.

I would have no problem doing adjustments to the WD20EARS but, a drive that costs $30-40 more and is made to run continuously should at least in theory be better able to handle the rigors of being in a Tivo, running all the time. So once again, this is why I am thinking of getting the WD20EURS.

Please reply back if you guys have experienced anything different or know of anything different with these specific drives, as I do not currently own any of the drives and it is is hard to compare the difference with the way drives "should be" as to the way they actually function.
Other than possibly using slightly more or less power there isn't any difference between the two drives with respect to using them in TiVo. The demand TiVo puts on a hard drive is minimal compared to other applications.

As is often mentioned on the TCF, TiVo can't and/or doesn't take advantage of any of the advanced A/V drive features designed primarily for security systems (IntelliSeek, Preemptive Wear Leveling (PWL), SilkStream, IntelliPark, etc.).

With respect to the cache, there's no advantage there either. Your TiVo HD has a WD1600AVBS OEM hard drive with 2MB of cache. Your TiVo Premiere has a WD3200AVVS OEM hard drive which has 8MB. TiVo doesn't require anything more nor does anything more enhance performance.

Otherwise the drives (including the WD20EARS) are basically the same...retail prices do not reflect performance or MTBF (mean time between failures) percentages.

If you want to get the best out of your new hard drive, reduce any heat by keeping TiVo well ventilated and be sure it's on a UPS (like this one: http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-s...p_ob_e_title_1). Power surges, spikes, brown-outs and outages cause more hard drive data corruption and failures than any day-to-day use.

Either choice is fine...whatever you feel comfortable with.

Also, be sure to put your original hard drives on the shelf as backups. If one of your new drives fails you can always slip the original back in and be back up and running right away plus you can use the original to image a new hard drive any time.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:05 PM   #776
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Better long-term investment the WD20EURS or the WD20EARS?

So, what you are saying rich is that the only real difference I would experience between the two drives is the minor electrical use. Since the WD20EARS can be manually set to the same settings the WD20EURS defaults at. I am somewhat disappointed to hear that the hard drive + tivo together negates all of the extra features of the WD20EURS that help to keep the drive running well.

So how many years would I have to run my premiere with a WD20EURS in it compared to the WD20EARS to recover the extra cost of the WD20EURS over the WD20EARS in electrical savings? Would it likely be longer than the estimated life of the drive?
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:09 PM   #777
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Yes. You're putting more thought into this than TiVo's own engineers likely did.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:00 PM   #778
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So, what you are saying rich is that the only real difference I would experience between the two drives is the minor electrical use. Since the WD20EARS can be manually set to the same settings the WD20EURS defaults at. I am somewhat disappointed to hear that the hard drive + tivo together negates all of the extra features of the WD20EURS that help to keep the drive running well.

So how many years would I have to run my premiere with a WD20EURS in it compared to the WD20EARS to recover the extra cost of the WD20EURS over the WD20EARS in electrical savings? Would it likely be longer than the estimated life of the drive?
As Fofer says, no need to over think this. It's not a big deal either way. Both drive's life expectency is about the same so it really depends on if you want to take the time to adjust the AAM on the WD20EARS (which is really quite simple using HDDScan since you'll have the drive connected to your computer anyway). But since you're giving this some thoughtful consideration...here are a few more things to think about.

With respect to the other features being utilized or not, and how long a drive will last, probably a better way to look at it is that TiVo doesn't necessarily need them nor would they probably improve longevity. As mentioned, although it is running 24/7 TiVo never powers up or off (stressing a drive) and places a very low demand on hard drives overall. Drives used in enterprise service (servers, etc.) have some of the heaviest demand with potentially huge amounts of data I/O activity. Security DVR's with a dozen or more inputs and often multiple outputs would benefit from some of the WD's A/V features. AFAIK it's never been documented here, but the only advantage an A/V dedicated drive might have (besides being quieter) would be their ability to handle I/O errors by avoiding multiple reads when it encounters data issues like "normal" hard drives do. Rather than trying to repeatedly recover a read error, they're designed to more quickly "skip over" them.

However TiVo hard drives have a maximum of three input sources (2 x TV tuners and 1 x IP) and only one output. Generally the input source is steady even with the large amount of data HD requires. It does some housekeeping in the background periodically, but that's about it. At most it's doing four or five things at any one time, usually less. So as compared to other applications, TiVo's "work" is relatively relaxed.

That's not to say that drives don't wear out, they do. But a TiVo drive is more likely to fail due to manufacturer defects (bad sectors, head positioning mechanism issues, etc.) than to have the ball bearings seize up (and if they're about to do that you'll hear it long before they do). It's also true that Hi Def TiVo's put more strain on a drive than the original Series1's. My iMac puts more stress on a hard drive than my old DOS based computer. Drive technology has improved immensly over the years as well.

So if what you're worried about is replacing a hard drive, picking between one or the other of the drives you've suggested won't make much difference. One could fail in 90 days or run for years. The WD10EVCS I have in our Series3 has been rock solid for about three years now. But it could fail tomorrow. However drives rarely just quit. Generally there will be warning signs...glitches, reboots. PQ problems. If/when that starts happening you can run some of TiVo's built-in diagnostics called "Kickstarts" (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...23&postcount=2) and either fix what ails it or prepare to replace it. That's why keeping the original drive on the shelf as a backup is a good investment...you can always image a new drive.

That's probably TMI but with respect to TiVo, recordings are probably more valuable than the drive itself. My "policy" is to replace the drive when the warranty is about to run out. In the case of WD GP drives, that's three years. When the time comes, pop the drive out clone it to a new one (using dd or some other program) and you're good for another three years or so. Which reminds me...it's about time to replace our Series3's hard drive. Thanks for that.

Regarding your last question...my wife has the chemical engineering degree and I leave all of the "mathy" stuff to her. My WAG would be "yes".

Buy a good drive, keep TiVo well ventilated, use a UPS and you should be fine.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:54 PM   #779
ItsRounder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comer View Post
You can "supersize" at any time without copying or starting over. You can not expand the same drive more than once.
My original drive failed so I took a 500GB drive that was laying around and used it while waiting to get my 1TB replacement. The original drive was a 320GB drive. I used jmfs to copy to the 500GB drive and expand it. Now that I've copied the 500 to the 1TB I'm finding that it's stuck at 500GB and I can't expand it. Is there any way to get around this or because I expanded the 500GB or am I now stuck with that?

Last edited by ItsRounder : 03-15-2011 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:51 PM   #780
generaltso
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When I installed a WD20EVDS in my TPXL, I set wdidle to 5 minutes. I didn't think it was related, but any time the slide's bluetooth dongle was connected during a reboot, the box would hang on "Almost There". If I unplugged the dongle, it would boot up fine. Just for the heck of it, I opened up the TiVo and set wdidle to "Disabled". Low and behold, the box now boots normally with the bluetooth dongle attached. I've only tested it twice since it takes a full 10 minutes per reboot.

Do you suppose it's possible that the drive could really be idle for 5 minutes during a normal boot? Doesn't seem likely.
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