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Old 01-29-2011, 09:58 PM   #601
Gregor
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Originally Posted by ThreeSoFar View Post
Rich,

Do you know the kBps speeds the jmfs copy gets with these various units?

Have you ever used the jmfs style (ddrescue) copy from one firewire to another on your Mac booting the jmfs cd?

In particular, if I get one USB and one Firewire, what would the speed be and which one should be firewire?
I think the speed is going to be dependent on the slowest connection, ie the USB.

I used 2 USB SATA adapters on my Macbook Pro and the copy took 10-12 hours, with a full 320 GB drive. I'll be upgrading the Woot Premiere sometime after Wed when I get the cablecard, and it will be empty when I copy it, so it should take a lot less time.

In any case, I'm going to do that copy on an old windows laptop that I can let run for awhile.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:44 PM   #602
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I'll be upgrading the Woot Premiere sometime after Wed when I get the cablecard, and it will be empty when I copy it, so it should take a lot less time.
It's not a truncated copy so the time is dependent on the size of the drive (and the transfer speed), not data content. In other words, it doesn't matter if the drive is empty or full.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:11 AM   #603
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Thanks, Rich, I'll plan accordingly!
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:07 AM   #604
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I'm sorry that i wasn't using i guess correct grammar on a forum.... Just not what I'm used to.

Anyways, i still would imagine the idea i have is quite if not completely possible. i really don't know why no one has tried it and i don't honestly see how it could be that hard. With the right amount of time and effort that is. As for why do it in the first place, well i already bought the $30 eSATA enclosure and i don't really want that to go to waste.

I would imagine a way to do it would to re-image the non-verified drive to look and seem like the Western Digital drive or "mimic" it.
I think Tivo looks for a specific ID string to enable eSata device. Unless someone can reprogram firmware in the enclosure, there is no way to make a generic solution to add an external drive without opening Tivo and pairing drives using external tools (jmfs)
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:36 PM   #605
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Me too

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Originally Posted by Gregor View Post
I think the speed is going to be dependent on the slowest connection, ie the USB.

I used 2 USB SATA adapters on my Macbook Pro and the copy took 10-12 hours, with a full 320 GB drive. I'll be upgrading the Woot Premiere sometime after Wed when I get the cablecard, and it will be empty when I copy it, so it should take a lot less time.

In any case, I'm going to do that copy on an old windows laptop that I can let run for awhile.

I successfully comerized a 2TB HD for my Tivo Premiere over the weekend. I went with the WD20EURS.

I found WinMFS to be a snap in the past but I had big trouble with JMFS. The interface was simple enough but the transfer speed was as bad as yours. It took about 10 hours on my iMac but it did work. I think Linux for some reason couldn't get a full USB 2.0 connection on the iMac and reverted to USB 1.1 speeds. It was painfully slow but I am a happy camper now.


(Before the iMac, I tried my ThinkPad but it has USB 3.0 ports that won't work my new USB Enclosure. Later when I tried the single USB 2.0 port (hidden on the back), it worked).
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:43 PM   #606
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Per my post on TiVoitis' other thread, I can't recall...has someone with a TiVo HDXL (1TB HDD) used jmfs to upgrade to a 2TB drive? I can't see any reason it wouldn't work, but it would be good to have confirmation. TIA
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:44 PM   #607
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hdparm hell

Using the Linux CD (JMFS), I also tried to set some firmware settings on the WD20EURS using HDPARM.

This website (http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/tivo_upgrade/) recommends:

hdparm -k 1 -B 1 -M 128 -W 1 /dev/sda

where sda may be sdb or sdc as the case may be.


But most of the settings I tried, just gave me errors about not being supported. I couldn't even get hdparm -i (identify drive) to work over USB (though it did work over eSATA). Curiously, over eSATA I couldn't get hdparm -M to work (just wanted to verify the acoustic setting was 128), but over USB while '-i' didn't work, '-M' did work (yes it was acoustic 128).

It was all very voodoo and I googled hdparm and found that sometimes when the scsi subsystem is used, hdparm doesn't fully function. As if I have anyway of controlling that.

I also changed my mind about the -B 1 setting, which sets it for most aggressive power management, which sounded to me like Intellipark head parking to me. So I issued -B 254 instead, which forces it to be less power conserving (without turning it off). But honestly, both times it gave me an error about not being supported and I got the feeling it did nothing at all!

The only setting that worked was -k (save the settings) and -W (write caching, which was already on!)
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:00 PM   #608
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I'm hoping I won't need to run wdidle3.exe but if I want to adjust the AAM (to 128) can this be done with a SATA-USB adapter?
Yes. Only wdidle3.exe requires a direct SATA connection.
Hmm. Well, I tried using hddscan (specifically to adjust AAM to 128) on a Windows 7 laptop, and the 2 TB hard drive connected via a SATA->USB bridge. It recognized the drive, but all of those options were grayed out. Like the previous poster, I wonder if this edit can't be done via USB?

I have a new SATA multi-dock on the way, so I'll be trying again, but I'm wondering if the only way to do this is with a real SATA port on a desktop PC.

Last edited by Fofer : 01-31-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:02 PM   #609
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Using the Linux CD (JMFS), I also tried to set some firmware settings on the WD20EURS using HDPARM.

This website (http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/tivo_upgrade/) recommends:

hdparm -k 1 -B 1 -M 128 -W 1 /dev/sda

where sda may be sdb or sdc as the case may be.


But most of the settings I tried, just gave me errors about not being supported. I couldn't even get hdparm -i (identify drive) to work over USB (though it did work over eSATA). Curiously, over eSATA I couldn't get hdparm -M to work (just wanted to verify the acoustic setting was 128), but over USB while '-i' didn't work, '-M' did work (yes it was acoustic 128).
Indeed, yours is already set to 128, as richsadams explained:

Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
The WD20EURS should work fine in your TiVo HD. Mind you that although it is a dedicated A/V GP "green" drive, it's power saving is helpful but the only "DVR optimization" you'll get is that the AAM (auto acoustic management) is already set to 128 which is the quietest setting.

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Old 01-31-2011, 09:46 PM   #610
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Hmm. Well, I tried using hddscan (specifically to adjust AAM ro 128) on a Windows 7 laptop, and the 2 TB hard drive connected via a SATA->USB bridge. It recognized the drive, but all of those options were grayed out. Like the previous poster, I wonder if this edit can't be done via USB?

I have a new SATA multi-dock on the way, so I'll be trying again, but I'm wondering if the only way to do this is with a real SATA port on a desktop PC.
Short answer is that HDDScan works for setting the AAM with a USB dock. I've done it a few times as have lots of others here. My only guess in your case is that the SATA bridge might be getting in the way. Try it with the fancy new Voyager dock and I'll bet it'll work.

Now, here's the long story for anyone else that might question the results like I just did. I don't have a PC laptop (well, my wife does for work but I stay as far away from it as possible ). However I do have Win7 Ultimate running on my spiffy new MacBook Air via Bootcamp. I just so happened to have a WD20EARS sitting here that I'm going to drop into our Premiere XL and it needed the AAM set. Thanks for the reminder! I connected my BlacX dock to the MBA, inserted the WD20EARS and fired up HDDScan > Features > IDE Features.

It showed that AAM was enabled (green "light" on) and the "Set" and "Disable" controls were active. As expected the AAM indicated that it was set to 254 in the LH window and the "Recommended" was 128 in the RH window. So I clicked on the slider and pushed it from the far RH side to the far LH side. Now both windows showed 128. I clicked on the "Set" button, closed it out, shut it down.

Now here's an oddity. I reopened everything and it says that the AAM is back at 254! I tried it with a WD10EARS and the same thing. So I thought I'd try it on my dusty, er, trusty Dell PC using the USB dock. It showed the same results. I could set the AAM to 128, close it out, but when I opened it again it showed that it was back to 254. How is that possible? Soooo with your thoughts in mind I popped the Dell open and connected each drive directly to the SATA port on the MB. Surprisingly HDDScan said both drives were set to 128. That was very odd, but I'm happy that it worked. I've no idea why the "before and after readings" were different when it was attached via the USB dock.

Bottom line, if you use a USB dock to change the AAM on a WD drive, it does work.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:09 PM   #611
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Cool - good to know, and thanks. I'll try again with the new Voyager dock when it arrives.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:16 AM   #612
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I just finished an upgrade on a Tivo Premiere to a 2TB drive (WD20EARS). Did the wdidle3, ran extended test through WD Lifeguard tools, used Tivo boot disk (which was awesome). Didn't change AAM settings with hdscan - didn't research enough beforehand apparently. Did the whole Copy, Expand, Supersize.

Two items:

1) Will the stock AAM setting only affect sound or does it affect performance also. I have a media server right next to the Premiere with Caviar Blacks so that will drown out any noise the Green drive would make.

2) I did the Supersize command, it said it completed successfully, but when I look at the Tivo Recording Capacity I only get 290 vs. 317 like many others do (ONLY is a relative term in this case). Has this happened to anyone else?

Great work on the boot disk, that was about the easiest process I have ever seen.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:00 AM   #613
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I found WinMFS to be a snap in the past but I had big trouble with JMFS. The interface was simple enough but the transfer speed was as bad as yours. It took about 10 hours on my iMac but it did work. I think Linux for some reason couldn't get a full USB 2.0 connection on the iMac and reverted to USB 1.1 speeds. It was painfully slow but I am a happy camper now.
My Premiere drive is starting to fail manifesting in stuttering, video artifacts, skipping huge chunks of time while fast forwarding etc. I'm currently using JMFS to hopefully get the drive cloned to a 500GB drive using a MacBook and two USB to Serial ATA enclosures and it's also painfully slow. I thought it was so slow because the drive is going bad which still may be the case but my experience seems to closely match your own. The average rate is currently just shy of 5000kB/s. Fortunately the original drive is a 320 and not something bigger but for those of you who haven't started yet, definitely go with pure SATA if possible. I've used both enclosures for backups and generally see somewhere around 30MB/s so there's something else going on here.
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:26 AM   #614
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You are the third data point here using a Mac with JMFS and getting glacial transfers. But rest assured, it does work! I suspect the USB drivers on that Linux Live distribution used by JMFS aren't working with the Mac chipsets at full USB 2.0 speeds. The transfer looked to be at USB 1.1 speeds, and it took place on both enclosures I had, pretty much identically.

Ironically, I wasn't even going to use my Mac for this but the peculiar incompatibilities around my ThinkPad's USB 3.0 ports made me switch to the Mac. I really wanted to use the ThinkPad because I have an eSATA port on it and an enclosure with an eSATA port. I got the eSATA port-based enclosure recognized but never got the USB Enclosure to work (it's new but I've only tested it on the Mac previously). Later, I recalled I had a dedicated USB 2.0 port off the back of the ThinkPad and indeed, after I had comerized the HD, I tested and found the ThinkPad did recognize the enclosure on that port. Good info for the future.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:43 PM   #615
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1) Will the stock AAM setting only affect sound or does it affect performance also. I have a media server right next to the Premiere with Caviar Blacks so that will drown out any noise the Green drive would make.
TiVo's OEM hard drives are WD A/V GP drives so the AAM is already set to 128. Adjusting the AAM on non-A/V drives won't affect TiVo's performance one way or the other. So if you're happy with things as-is, there's no reason to worry about it.

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2) I did the Supersize command, it said it completed successfully, but when I look at the Tivo Recording Capacity I only get 290 vs. 317 like many others do (ONLY is a relative term in this case). Has this happened to anyone else?
I've read about others experiencing the same issue. I haven't tried it, but you should be able to go back and set it again to get the full 317 hours. It shouldn't affect the existing data as it just reclaims the small amount of space reserved for TiVo Clips. I believe you can also do the same thing using winMFS or MFSTools as well.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:01 PM   #616
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sorry if the answer is buried in this thread somewhere, i've been reading and reading and thought i'd just ask.

I just got a new tivo premiere and i'm upgrading to a 2TB WD20EARS. I'm going back and forth on whether i should do the wdidle3.exe and disable the intellipark.

So here is the question: I have a Dec 2010 (330GB orig and 2TB upgrade). Won't the 330GB original have intellipark and has anyone looked at what it's set to?

thanks!
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:05 PM   #617
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sorry if the answer is buried in this thread somewhere, i've been reading and reading and thought i'd just ask.

I just got a new tivo premiere and i'm upgrading to a 2TB WD20EARS. I'm going back and forth on whether i should do the wdidle3.exe and disable the intellipark.

So here is the question: I have a Dec 2010 (330GB orig and 2TB upgrade). Won't the 330GB original have intellipark and has anyone looked at what it's set to?

thanks!
This is exactly the upgrade I just did, and I did not need the wdidle3 at all, soft reboot is no issue.

But Rich, would Acoustic Management help at all compared to how those shipped?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:07 PM   #618
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This is exactly the upgrade I just did, and I did not need the wdidle3 at all, soft reboot is no issue.

But Rich, would Acoustic Management help at all compared to how those shipped?
I'm going back and forth on this because many say it's not needed for the reboot issued, however if you read enough threads others talk about hitting the 300k parking limit at something like 3 months. Is this still a concern or not?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:20 PM   #619
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I'm going back and forth on this because many say it's not needed for the reboot issued, however if you read enough threads others talk about hitting the 300k parking limit at something like 3 months. Is this still a concern or not?
No idea what you mean by this limit, please elaborate.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:42 PM   #620
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No idea what you mean by this limit, please elaborate.
Sure. I've read things like this:

Quote:The problem is this: The Green Power is designed and marketed as a "green" drive, where power efficiency is the primary engineering concern. As part of this concern, the drive is designed to unload the read/write heads after approximately 8 seconds of inactivity. That in itself is not a bad thing — in fact, it's a common attribute of notebook drives, which have different reasons for saving power (battery life). However, certain software (notably, SpeedFan and some distributions of Linux) can cause issues because they access the drive regularly every 10 seconds or every minute or so. This causes a cycle of rapid loading and unloading that is stressful to the drive — far more stressful than "ordinary" use in which the drive is either working steadily or completely idle.

It is worth noting that there are no actual failures attributed to this problem as yet — just a number of drives that are reporting rapid (and unusual) increases in load/unload cycles via the drive's SMART reporting feature. Some drives are approaching the rated specification of 300,000 load/unload cycles after less than a year of ownership. While the drives are extremely unlikely to give up the ghost right as the counter crosses 300,000, exceeding the specification indicates the point where the risk of failure begins to increase.

In some ways, the solution is simple: Don't use software that accesses the drive every 10 seconds. However, for those who can't or won't deal with this on the software level, Western Digital offers a firmware update that either disables the head unload feature or modifies it so that the unload timer is set to longer than 8 seconds (up to 5 minutes is supported). A separate utility is used to control the feature once the new firmware is installed. In either case, the power saving gained by unloading the heads will be lost, but that's probably safer than dealing with potential drive failures down the road. More information about the firmware update (including a new, lower power spin up mode) can be found in this product change notice.

and then you find the people that say don't disable it:

**DO NOT USE** the wdidle3.exe /d command. This turns the timer off however many people have reported that the drives eventually slow down to a crawl and/or generate errors using this command. The best is to change the timer to 300 seconds.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:31 PM   #621
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So we're talking about Intellipark. Do those folks then recommend turning it ON for newer drives (apparently) that come with it already disabled? Sorry, I'm confused.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:41 PM   #622
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So we're talking about Intellipark. Do those folks then recommend turning it ON for newer drives (apparently) that come with it already disabled? Sorry, I'm confused.
for the newer WD drives (at least some of the models) it's on and it's set to 8 secs. Now this of course was interfering with the soft reboot and the solution was either A) set it to 300 secs or B) disable it. And then option C) was to leave it alone as some were perhaps not having the issue (??? i'm guessing here).

And now i see that people say if you don't do anything then you hit this load cycle limit rather quickly --- mainly because we are using the drives with linux on tivo and this wasn't necessarily the intended usage. Result here is that people think the drive will fail sooner. Finally, there is also postings that completely disabling it will cause the above problems mentioned.

So my question from above is what is the intellipark set to with the current drives that are being shipped with Tivo Premiere's? Is it 8sec, 300sec, disabled. I realize it's an AV drive but if it has intellipark then what's it set to?
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:53 PM   #623
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Here are a couple really nice links:

http://chbits.blogspot.com/2009/07/f...dtler-and.html

and this one:

http://webdiary.com/i/?tag=wdidle3

In this one they have a quote from WD:

Quote:WD drives are designed to reduce power consumption, in part by positioning the heads in a park position (unloading the heads) and turning off unnecessary electronics, resulting in substantial power savings. WD defines this mode as Idle 3.

Some utilities, operating systems, and applications, such as some implementations of Linux, for example, are not optimized for low power storage devices and can cause our drives to wake up at a higher rate than normal. This effectively negates the power-saving advantages of low-power drives, such as WD GreenPower™ models, and artificially increases the number of load-unload cycles. Although the increase in load/unload cycles is within design margins (drive has been validated to 1 million load/unload cycles without issue) a balance between life of product, logging requirements, and low power consumption can be achieved depending on what is critical to the system. Present SMART normalized values have not been re-normalized to 1 million cycles so advisory reporting on this attribute does not mean failure of product.


As soon as i finish copying my drive i'm going to run the wdidle3 utility on the original drive and see what the intellipark setting is (unless of course it doesn't have this feature).
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:06 AM   #624
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Ugh, I don't want to be fearful of my drive dying in 3 months, taking all of my recordings with it, because I didn't set Intellipark properly.

Yes, I'm dying of curiosity to know what the original drive is set at...
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:52 AM   #625
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Ugh, I don't want to be fearful of my drive dying in 3 months, taking all of my recordings with it, because I didn't set Intellipark properly.

Yes, I'm dying of curiosity to know what the original drive is set at...
FWIW, my WD20EVDS was set to 8 sec. I disabled it. Now I wonder if 300 sec would have been better.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:50 AM   #626
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Wow! Things can really get crazy around here!

Bottom line for DrTivol's OP...if your WD20EARS has a manufacture date of December 10, 2010 there's a very high probability that you won't need to make any adjustments to the Intellipark setting.

FWIW the "cut off date" (for lack of a better term) for having to deal with the Intellipark issue with WD GP drives is September 15, 2010. It was a little before then that WD made an adjustment to their GP drive line's firmware which allowed them to play nice with TiVo once more. So even though the Intellipark setting remains at the default 8 seconds, drives made after that date (and a few before - as far back as March 2010 on their A/V GP drives) have no problem booting up and will reboot from a menu restart normally as attested to by a number of folks here.

Since TiVo is never idle (the buffer is recording 24/7 on both tuners) the Intellipark feature is never implemented and never cycles

Of course there may be an exception to the rule but it hasn't reared it's ugly head so far. The only way to find out is to perform the jmfs upgrade install the new drive and boot it up and then perform a menu restart. If it boots up and reboots normally life is good.

If you're using a something other than an A/V dedicated drive (like a WD20EARS) and you want to enjoy the same acoustics as the original TiVo drive you can run HDDScan and adjust the AAM to 128. More in Section IV, #32 here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...60#post5616160

Hope that helps.

Last edited by richsadams : 02-02-2011 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Add link
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:59 AM   #627
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Ugh, I don't want to be fearful of my drive dying in 3 months, taking all of my recordings with it, because I didn't set Intellipark properly.

Yes, I'm dying of curiosity to know what the original drive is set at...
The Intellipark default setting on all WD GP hard drives is 8 seconds. For drives manufactured prior to 09/15/10 I always recommended using wdidle3.exe to adjust the setting to 5 minutes (/s300) having read a few horror stories about disabling it completely. That always took care of the boot/reboot issue without any apparent ill affects with respect to drive function or lifespan.

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FWIW, my WD20EVDS was set to 8 sec. I disabled it. Now I wonder if 300 sec would have been better.
It's an easy fix for anyone wanting to change it again. Since it's a basic firmware change it won't affect any data.

Last edited by richsadams : 02-02-2011 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Tyop…d'oh!
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:56 AM   #628
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Rich,

I appreciate your input here. I'm past the soft-reboot reason and the fact that i have a newer drive. So this one was leaning me towards not running wdidle3.exe . Then i ran across all the discussions about the load cycle count. This one was then convincing me to run it. Finally, i threw my hands up in the air when i read the thread that completely disabling it could cause further problems.

You are right that having the drive used in a DVR causes a continuous stream to be generated (written and possibly read), however the part i'm not sure about is how often does that data get written to disk. The threads outside of the tivocommunity are usually using the drive in a NAS and RAID mode with Linux. The claim the GP drives aren't designed for linux and this is where the 8 sec issue comes into play.

So i currently have the same opinion as you: that the continuous writing of the video stream is probably not allowing the intellipark to kick in. And that got me to wondering what the original HD is set to in the Tivo? I agree the default is 8 secs, so i was just thinking that maybe WD sets it differently for the drives they ship to TIVO. If they don't then this should be a NON ISSUE --- leading the discussion back to running wdidle3.exe just for the soft-reboot issue.

by the way, for the life of me i can't seem to create a CD or USB mem stick with wdidle3.exe. I'd prefer a USB option. I followed the instruction in the FAQ and on other webpages after searching. Non of these are working for me.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:24 AM   #629
DrTivol
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
If you're using a something other than an A/V dedicated drive (like a WD20EARS) and you want to enjoy the same acoustics as the original TiVo drive you can run HDDScan and adjust the AAM to 128. More in Section IV, #32 here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...60#post5616160

Hope that helps.
Can't you also run right from the copy/expand/supersize boot disk:

hdparm -M 128 /dev/sda
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:55 AM   #630
DrTivol
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Posts: 26
O.k. i finally got the wdidle3.exe boot USB stick going (must have been the storm in Chicago last night!).

So i just ran it on the original WD3200AVVS (WD AV-GP) drive:

c:> wdidle3.exe /R

and the response is that the timer is disabled!!! My drive was manufactured on 09 Dec 2010.

This does it for me!!!!

Initially on my new drive i tried:

wdidle3.exe /D and it says that it set it to 62 minutes .... hmm

searched around and found that if i run:

wididle3.exe /S[10000000000] (ten zeros) it completely disables it. So that's what i did. Now it's time to fire it up.

Last edited by DrTivol : 02-02-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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