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Old 09-11-2010, 12:00 PM   #1
OSXFreak
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HDUI Speed

Ive had the Tivo Premiere for a few months now and LOVE IT so far.. As many have done I've moved over to the SD Menu's and have been (ok, Wife has been) happy with that.

But I was surfiing and made my way here. So the big Q... Has the HDUI gotten better? I'm on 14.5 software, so just wonderingif we're now faster and more responsive, or same ole story?

If there is a Thread on the HDUI and it is recent or talking about the latest 14.5 release, feel free to point me to that thread

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Old 09-11-2010, 12:59 PM   #2
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The 14.5 software has made the HDUI a lot faster then when it first came. It stills needs some more work on the speed.
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Old 09-11-2010, 03:31 PM   #3
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Still needs a lot more work. I moved back to the SD menus. Until the HDUI can be as fast as the SDUI, I am probably just not interested.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by OSXFreak View Post
Ive had the Tivo Premiere for a few months now and LOVE IT so far.. As many have done I've moved over to the SD Menu's and have been (ok, Wife has been) happy with that.

But I was surfiing and made my way here. So the big Q... Has the HDUI gotten better? I'm on 14.5 software, so just wonderingif we're now faster and more responsive, or same ole story?

If there is a Thread on the HDUI and it is recent or talking about the latest 14.5 release, feel free to point me to that thread

Thanks

Chip
14.5 is still too slow and unstable to be usable, unfortunately. I've written off the HD UI until late 2011. We'll check in each time there's a version change, but given all the work they have to do to even FINISH the HD UI menus, and the galacial pace of fixes so far, it's going to be a long while.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:04 AM   #5
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14.5 is still too slow and unstable to be usable, unfortunately. I've written off the HD UI until late 2011. We'll check in each time there's a version change, but given all the work they have to do to even FINISH the HD UI menus, and the galacial pace of fixes so far, it's going to be a long while.
"late 2011"? That's a year. I think you should be able to give them more credit than that. I hear the beta builds are even faster. Personally I hated the speed of the HDUI but once 14.5 came I switched for good to HD.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:43 AM   #6
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"late 2011"? That's a year. I think you should be able to give them more credit than that. I hear the beta builds are even faster. Personally I hated the speed of the HDUI but once 14.5 came I switched for good to HD.
Well, it's been 5 months and we've had almost NO progress on actually FINISHING the menus so they're all in HD. NO progress in putting existing SD UI features in the HD UI, and very SMALL progress in speed/stability.

I think doubling that time to finish everything that's left to port from the SD UI (and that's a LOT), and make it stable and fast, AND get the new HD UI features working right is a really tall order. I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see the Premiere advertised that we all bought actually being the Premiere we own before the end of 2011.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:46 PM   #7
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I couldn't imagine using only the SDUI on any of my Premieres. I can't stand the SD menus any more. Of course I'm not having any freezing issues or any reboots with my HDUI either.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:52 PM   #8
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I recently got a Premiere and still have an S3 OLED as well. I tried the HDUI on Premiere briefly and couldn't stand it - very slow and annoying for me compared to the SDUI and the S3 UI. I'll be sticking to the SDUI so hopefully TiVo continues to support that going forwards. So I have completely opposite take to aaronwt - I couldn't imagine using HDUI as it is right now. To think that HDUI was worse in previous releases doesn't inspire much confidence that it will ever be usable for me.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:16 PM   #9
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I think the current ver. 14.5 is reasonably fast. I don't spend that much time in the menus, so the current speed allows me to get to the show I want and start playing quick enough. Of course I would welcome it to be snappier, but I don't notice the menu speed anymore. Any haven't had any lockup since the new update.

btw, I have the video window in the HD-UI turned off.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:54 PM   #10
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Another thing that's become very annoying is 30 sec skip (not the scan, that is way too slow as well) and 8 sec skip back are much slower than my S3. The current frame you are on when you start the skip freezes for a second or so before the skip completes, making rapid succession of skips pretty impossible. My S3 response to skips is almost instantaneous and much more agreeable.

P.S. This is not related to HDUI or SDUI. The slow skip behavior during playback applies to either mode.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:08 PM   #11
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I recently got a Premiere and still have an S3 OLED as well. I tried the HDUI on Premiere briefly and couldn't stand it - very slow and annoying for me compared to the SDUI and the S3 UI. I'll be sticking to the SDUI so hopefully TiVo continues to support that going forwards. So I have completely opposite take to aaronwt - I couldn't imagine using HDUI as it is right now. To think that HDUI was worse in previous releases doesn't inspire much confidence that it will ever be usable for me.
I think more people agree the HDUI is sluggish and are using the SD mode than happy with the HDUI. I *hate* the HDUI as it is now. Can't stand it. I put the HD mode on our bedroom TiVo without saying anything to see what my wife would say and she *freaked out* when she turned the TV on and tired to use it, demanding that I "fix" the TiVo.

I think that says it all.

Maybe it's because we're TiVo veterans, there from Day 1, Series 1 - perhaps our expectations of a TiVo are higher because they've always delivered, and this Premiere software is SUCH a miss for the company? I dunno. It's just very, very disappointing on so many levels.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:31 AM   #12
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I put the HD mode on our bedroom TiVo without saying anything to see what my wife would say and she *freaked out* when she turned the TV on and tired to use it, demanding that I "fix" the TiVo.

I think that says it all.
No, that says your wife has habituated to the SDUI, hence the demand you "fix" the unit.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:35 AM   #13
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Coming from a nightlight S2 unit to the Premiere, the HDUI on the Premiere is about the same, and possibly a bit snappier than the SDUI on the S2. So for me, it's good enough now. The SDUI is blazingly fast compared to my S2, but I like the look of the HDUI now and don't see myself going back.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:56 AM   #14
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As a returning TiVo user, I was disappointed to find the old UI looking pretty much the same as 1999, kind of like going back to MS-DOS after using Windows or Mac. It needs an HD UI, its not a 480i world anymore but I'm not sure the design direction they've taken is the way to go, it looks kind to thrown together. They should ditch Flash and start over, use HTML-5 and basically make the UI a browser.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:22 PM   #15
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I can see why they went with flash, but I still think it was a bad move. Especially since they still have one of the cores disabled o.O
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:49 PM   #16
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I can see why they went with flash, but I still think it was a bad move. Especially since they still have one of the cores disabled o.O
There is no evidence that the Flash system they used is multithreaded, thus adding an additional core might make little to no difference in interface performance.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:39 PM   #17
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There is no evidence that the Flash system they used is multithreaded, thus adding an additional core might make little to no difference in interface performance.
Flash isn't multi-threaded, so no it wouldn't directly improve UI performance speed. But that assumes 100% of the CPU is devoted to the UI. The TiVO runs a lot of background processes recording channels on multiple tuners, scheduling episodes, checking for updates, etc etc, so the second processor could help grant the UI access to the full force of one of the cores. Generally, though, you need a better graphics card with hardware acceleration enabled in Flash to see substantial improvements.
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:28 AM   #18
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Flash isn't multi-threaded, so no it wouldn't directly improve UI performance speed. But that assumes 100% of the CPU is devoted to the UI. The TiVO runs a lot of background processes recording channels on multiple tuners, scheduling episodes, checking for updates, etc etc, so the second processor could help grant the UI access to the full force of one of the cores. Generally, though, you need a better graphics card with hardware acceleration enabled in Flash to see substantial improvements.
While that is true, it would only help with hesitation when there is something else actually happening at the time (assuming the HDUI is not threaded). If you are not transferring programs over the network, or it is not housecleaning, then it wouldn't help. (Non network recording, itself, takes almost no CPU). My issue is that the HDUI is too slow, even when I am pretty confident that nothing else is happening at the time.

Also, this is not the same "Flash" as you have in a web browser. It probably does have other features and capabilities we probably don't know much about. We might be surprised.

It is all speculation, but I have to keep pointing out to people that "enabling the second core" is not an automatic/guaranteed improvement in the HDUI that many people seem to believe it will be. If it were, there is no reason that TiVo would not have already had it "on" except maybe to save a tiny bit of power.
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:16 AM   #19
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While that is true, it would only help with hesitation when there is something else actually happening at the time (assuming the HDUI is not threaded). If you are not transferring programs over the network, or it is not housecleaning, then it wouldn't help. (Non network recording, itself, takes almost no CPU). My issue is that the HDUI is too slow, even when I am pretty confident that nothing else is happening at the time.

Also, this is not the same "Flash" as you have in a web browser. It probably does have other features and capabilities we probably don't know much about. We might be surprised.

It is all speculation, but I have to keep pointing out to people that "enabling the second core" is not an automatic/guaranteed improvement in the HDUI that many people seem to believe it will be. If it were, there is no reason that TiVo would not have already had it "on" except maybe to save a tiny bit of power.
The second core is not likely to have a appreciable effect.
The really long delays are disk or network based (downloading images etc).

Multi-threading can help but the programming can be complex (to debug).
If Flash is not thread-safe, they cannot turn on the second processor.

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Old 09-17-2010, 08:50 AM   #20
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In my limited use of the HDUI, flash in and of itself doesn't seem to be the most limiting/annoying part of the interface.

IMO, the most annoying part has been the integration of local and online content together. You click on a show you recorded, and then it insists on loading often unnecessary online content (graphics, etc) to go along with it. That's not really flash's fault. Tivo has always had poor online performance.

In effect, Tivo brought out the most annoying part of the interface -- the sluggish response of the apps -- into the everyday interface, and that's made it unusable to me. I don't *want* stock photos and other random junk cluttering up the interface if it's going to slow down my productivity... which it does quite handily. Minor tweaks won't solve that problem. It needs to be re-coded to buffer that stuff in advance, or let us turn it off.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:01 AM   #21
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You click on a show you recorded, and then it insists on loading often unnecessary online content (graphics, etc) to go along with it.
Try highlighting a show and, instead of hitting "select", press "play" instead. The show will immediately start.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:11 AM   #22
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Also, this is not the same "Flash" as you have in a web browser. It probably does have other features and capabilities we probably don't know much about. We might be surprised.
Yes, for fun TiVo reimplemented Flash in its spare time... that sounds perfectly logical...
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:26 AM   #23
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Yes, for fun TiVo reimplemented Flash in its spare time... that sounds perfectly logical...
Yes, but not alone:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
  • Why is the new HD user interface built in Adobe Flash?

    In the past, TiVo wrote all of its software in C, and that made updating and improving the interface difficult, especially with all the baggage accrued over the past decade. Developers required extensive knowledge of the code and its various dependencies to make changes. TiVo determined a major rewrite was necessary and plans were put in motion to do that.

    In its research and discussions, TiVo found that consumers disliked the separate environments for local and remote content found on existing products. Users wanted a single, consistent interface for all content. One of TiVo’s primary goals with the new HDUI is to replace the disparate interfaces that exist today with one seamless experience for TV and broadband media. Assuming the hardware is up to the task, Adobe’s Stagecraft platform is well suited for this purpose, as Flash applications with identical look and feel can be run from the hard drive or from Internet servers, with no apparent distinction to the user.

    Adobe Flash is also an established platform that can be used to more quickly develop and deploy new interface elements, as compared to the company's previous approach. Flash allows TiVo to bring new user interface features and other improvements to the Premiere in a much more timely manner. It also makes the Premiere a more attractive platform for potential partners, many of whom rely on that technology (ex: Hulu).

    The Premiere does not use a Flash browser plug-in like users have on their PCs, but a specialized Stagecraft application environment optimized by Broadcom for the hardware. TiVo, Broadcom, and Adobe continue to work to provide the best possible Flash experience.

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Old 09-17-2010, 11:01 AM   #24
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I think more people agree the HDUI is sluggish and are using the SD mode than happy with the HDUI.
...
Maybe it's because we're TiVo veterans, there from Day 1, Series 1 - perhaps our expectations of a TiVo are higher because they've always delivered, and this Premiere software is SUCH a miss for the company? I dunno. It's just very, very disappointing on so many levels.
My wife and I aren't Tivo veterans - the Premiere is our first Tivo. However, we did have a Dish Network DVR for four years prior to the Premiere. The four year old Dish unit was just as fast as the Premiere in SD mode for every operation, and faster for most functions. If Dish really was using Tivo's software, they were using it better than Tivo does.

That said, the Premiere does meet our expectations, is good enough, and really is the only product on the market which will do what we need. It was just surprising that basic operations like menu navigation, FF/RW, etc, were all no better than our antiquated Dish unit, and mostly worse.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:21 PM   #25
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IT's slower than sd menus, but it's easier on the eyes. So you can't win either way.

Amazing they couldn't whip up a good hd menu for everything. I mean we're talking text here.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:42 PM   #26
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Being that I haven't bought a Premier (yet)...

It's really a shock and depressing to me that the new TiVo UI still is this buggy. I know, as a user who has a peanut remote that can read my mind, if had one that was that slow I'd be throwing it out the window.

How much does the HD UI depends on your Internet speed?

I've posted that recently doing a YouTube search on my S3 drove me nuts. I have only 3MB DSL, often with a VPN running.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:34 PM   #27
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Thumbs up Like the HDUI even with problems

I have to say that I really like the HDUI, but I am not bothered so much by the difference in speed. When we started using the HDUI, it took my wife and kids a little while to get used to seeing the new UI, but they all find it easy to use now.

The only problem I have had is that if I try to go to settings from the HDUI (even to change to SDUI if I wanted), it goes to a black screen with the non responsive remote status (yellow light flashes and I get the bonk noise). I have not had time to call customer service yet, but will do that soon to see if this is known bug or something specific to my machine. I can go to other SD menus, such as account information, just not to the settings menu.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:48 PM   #28
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How much does the HD UI depends on your Internet speed?

I've posted that recently doing a YouTube search on S3 drove on my S3 me nuts. I have only 3MB DSL, often with a VPN running.
The network speed is not the primary problem with the HD UI. It has problems displaying Now Playing in a snappy manner, even with discovery bar stuff that's cached. Plus, in HD UI mode, the unit is unacceptably unstable, and reboots are always a looming danger when you least expect it.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:19 PM   #29
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Now that I finally have my premiere up and running I feel I can better comment on this. I last used a directivo many years ago. Since then I used the HD DVR. Now, the HD DVR was faster than the Premiere, but I'm honestly not seeing much slowdown. The tivo central screen loads in about 1 sec after hitting the button. Not instant, but not horrible. I have it on a 5 port 5ghz n bridge, which is talking to a airport extreme upstairs on 5ghz.

The only thing that seems to slow stuff down for me is that discovery bar. When it loads fast everything loads fast. When it's lagging everything is lagging. Oh how I wish I could turn that off.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:52 AM   #30
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The only thing that seems to slow stuff down for me is that discovery bar. When it loads fast everything loads fast. When it's lagging everything is lagging. Oh how I wish I could turn that off.
I couldn't possibly agree with you more. I want the choice to turn it off. I find it annoying, distracting, slow, mostly uninteresting/useless, and a waste of screen space.
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