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Old 05-24-2010, 11:04 AM   #451
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So the blood that kept appearing at Jack's throat in purgatory was basically like a stigmata resulting from Locke's knife being pressed up against Jack's neck during their final battle.

Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy Jack couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:04 AM   #452
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The Jack and Kate last kiss on the cliff top was nice. Feel the passion that they have been denying and accepting and then denying for six seasons.

Hurley's "Dude I am not going down that" in regards to the skimpy ladder was great. Could Kate and Sawyer survived a dive like that?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:06 AM   #453
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So the blood that kept appearing at Jack's throat in purgatory was basically like a stigmata from Locke's knife, pressed up against his neck during their final battle.

Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy he couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?
I like it!
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:06 AM   #454
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Isn't that true of pretty much all television?
I see Cerbhaill's point though, but I think it' might be misdirected or based on a misunderstanding (or, I guess, just a disagreement ). A lot of time, writers will create a "dream reality" where characters interact in ways that leave the "real reality" unimportant, and when we unknowingly invest our emotions into the "dream reality" of the show, and it turns out that it didn't really have consequences for the characters, because it wasn't "real", that can be very annoying. I certainly have felt that way over the years with various episodes of shows (think "Dallas" and the "Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower" ).

I would have HATED a "it was all a dream" type ending, and I think some interpret the ending as that. But it wasn't. These were the same characters, leading sideways lives that felt real TO THEM, and that had real consequences (be they in a different plane of reality). And all the Island stuff we've ever been shown DID happen. It wasn't a "and then they woke up", where none of what we saw before mattered. It ALL mattered. It was what created the "sideways" world, and the "sideways" world would not have existed without the "real" world characters and events.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #455
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It will be interesting to re-watch this entire season and look for clues that the "flash sideways" is what it turned out to be. Something like Hoffs-Drawler or maybe something not quite like that.

Here's another theory about the wreckage at the end, during the credits. What if it were another plane that Hurley made crash in order to find his own replacement?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #456
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I sure thought Locke could have pushed jack over the edge of the waterfall into the light, just like jacob did to him.
Halfway through, my thoughts were that Jack was going to push FLocke back down into that cave and it would reverse everything that ever happened with regards to Smokey. Time rewinds back and Jacob decides to let his brother leave the island with the warning that once he leaves, he'll never be able to find his way back to this place. With that out of the way, Jacob lives out his life on the island, protecting the light. None of the "canidates" are ever brought to the island, and island life ends up merging with the alternate timeline...where, through some mystical powers of Desmond, the Losties have these flashes of memories from the island reality and then end up living out their lives together in that reality.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:12 AM   #457
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It will be interesting to re-watch this entire season and look for clues that the "flash sideways" is what it turned out to be. Something like Hoffs-Drawler or maybe something not quite like that.
From a few seasons ago, there was the CANTON-RANIER laundry van (which was an anagram for REINCARNATION). Could it be said that after the characters each died, they were reincarnated in purgatory? Or does reincarnation necessarily imply coming back to the same plane of existence you were on before?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:17 AM   #458
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I loved Frank handing Miles the duct tape.

And it seemed Boone had recalled before Shannon did, how? and if he remembered, then why couldn't he cause shannon to remember?
Because he wasn't Shannon's constant. You could ask the same question about any of the characters. Desmond and Hurley were bringing them all to the places/situations where they would meet their constants. It takes more than just an encounter with someone who remembers.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:18 AM   #459
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Was the "appendectomy" scar, from an appendectomy Jack couldn't recall having, similarly stigmata from the fatal wound he took in his side?
Sorry to say it but, "Duh".


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Old 05-24-2010, 11:22 AM   #460
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Damn, 11 pages (40 per) long and I was only on 7 when I fell asleep. Ok screw it, going full-on smeek mode - complain away in the next Lost thread..

First, I'd it hasn't been fully explained before this post, yes the nuke did go off (but it didn't do much significantly, other than cause one more flash to 2007). Remember it was only *part* of the nuke, and it was pretty far down in the well, and it was near a pocket of magic energy, so there are enough outs as to how that doesn't destroy the island or anything. The reason to assume it went off? Well first the flash when she hit the bomb (no one else caused that flash, that we saw), and second the idea that Juliete, who was brought to the island to figure out why kids can't be concieved&born on the island since the 70s after the Incident, actually caused it during the incident by detonating the bomb. Poetic.

Kate early in this episode, seeing the coffin, said to Desmond "who died?", and during my rewatch I said aloud "apparently all of you!"

Excellent scene where Jack tells flocke that he's going to join him, that flocke THINKS he's going to destroy the island, but that really Jack is going to kill him.. and that "how" was going to be a surprise.

Great line (paraphrased): "That's one hell of a long con, doc!". !!!!! awesome!!!!

Ok so my take spelled out is that the sideways is a MADE little purgatory-like thing like a game lobby that let the dead souls of s bunch of them all meet up after their respective games were over, even though they all died at different times.

No one had to "wait" because it was outside time. They all arrived in this MADE fake place, which was a loose copy of our main timeline, but with some changes (like a lack of Jacob interference), which were probably deliberately made. They all got one last hurrah, being able to live and experience what their lives up until 815 would have been like without Jacob's interference, but the real reason this made place/existance/world exists is to collect the souls of these friends, in this cliche (not including Artz, etc), so they can all reunite and "move on" together (to "whatever" - rebirth, heaven, nothingness, whatever the viewer wants).

As to who "made" that sideways world, at first it seemed pretty clear to me that it was Hurley with his new powers, which (lay-claim-mode) I'd even claimed several weeks ago, saying maybe this was a "starter" universe made by a rookie like Hurley that didn't even make it convincing enough that try couldn't figure it out, since they were all way too frequently bumping into each other (/lay-claim-mode).

The idea there being that when Ben suggested to Hurley that he can forget Jacob's way and figure out his own way to help his friends, that was clearly what they were talking about.

After the rewatch, while I still feel it's obvious that Hurley made the sideways, I'm opening myself up to the possibility that maybe instead it was Jack, while lying in the plug room, being bathed in the light/water mix and still being like-Jacob/Hurley, that made the sideways.

Ben didn't go with them because he wanted more time to watch Alex grow, maybe have dinner with Danielle a few hundred times, and basically get to enjoy his life a bit (as him, not as the timid teacher that didn't feel like he'd accomplished much).

Michael wasn't invited to their afterlife soul-gathering lobby, because they didn't like him (he killed Libby, and that was kinda unforgivable, despite the whispers scene we saw with Michael in the jungle). He was a good example, though, of what can happen to someone who dies and hasn't moved on that ISN'T in the club - he just wandered the island, with no real chance to redeem himself and move on. Hurley knew that from his talk with them, which is more reason he'd want to prevent his friends from that fate (especially since most of them had killed people and really needed a chance for redemption so they could move on together).

Faraday wasn't invited because his poor mother didn't get enough time with him, so he let him stick around for a lot longer (also enjoying what he'd really wanted to do - playing music).

What I meant by saying that it was brilliant to have Juliete say her secret about unplugging was two things that the writers were really saying:
1) If they unplug the huge stone cork and the light goes out and the "candy" (kill Locke) drops, it's technically legal and not cheating writing-wise if they have the light come back on if you plug it back in.
and/or
2) (better) the writers are saying that it wasn't cheating showing us what would happen if things changed on a non-crash 815 (despite their absolute self-imposed difficult writing rule "what happened, happened") if the way that they do that is by unplugging everyone (everyone dies) and they're re-plugged in (they live in this new other world), because that other world is in an afterlife, post death.. It's fake - constructed. Their more-difficult task of creating a consistent static "what happened, happened" story line in season 5 (and earlier) isn't invalidated/broken/made-inconsistent by showing us this other world, if it's after they all die, in some new afterlife world. I agree with the writers 100%. They even had Jack call it out by correcting Desmond and telling him that he'd already tried changing things, and there were no short cuts, what happened, happened. Brilliant.

So, one thing that's a bit weird is the idea that in the real world, Hurley saw ghost Charlie outside the insane asylum(sp?), yet that ghost Charlie didn't share any memories with the ghost-Charlie-living-in-the-sideways-game-lobby.. Eh..

Pulling the plug again looked like The Quickening - incredible special effects and sound. That's what it should have felt like to become the next protector.

Loved how Hurley only agreed once he had told Jack it was temporary, and that he was gonna give it right back to him after.

Once Jack's body was somehow expelled from the light cave, he rested in exactly the same pose (I think) on the same log as MiB's body (before he made it past the shoe to his starting spot in the jungle).

Can't believe I never guessed it'd end on an eye close (until the 10 seconds before it did).

Locke saying "It looks like you were wrong" to Jack at the top of the cave wad like an opposite of the line in the hatch where they didn't push the button and metal was flying everywhere and he said something like "I was wrong..."

Ben's on top of a cliff, and he just casually THROWS a walkie talkie to James?? Nice catch! Oops, dropped the walkie.. Game over..

And my I'll end this post with this one - I loved that when they had MiB finally killed by being kicked over the cliff by Jack, he didn't even land in the water!!! He landed on a rock ledge, RIGHT NEXT to it. He never made it off the island (yeah yeah, small boat trips to hydra.. missing the point). Evoked the memory of his mother saying (paraphrased) "My love, you must know that whatever you have been told, you will never leave this island".

Ok time to see how behind I am now!
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:26 AM   #461
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Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:29 AM   #462
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Exactly. Clear as day.

Hurley and Ben ruled on the Island for quite some time, possibly.

My only question was how did Jack get out of the hole?
My quote to Jami as we watched it: "I wonder what it feels like to be puked out by an island?"
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:31 AM   #463
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From a few seasons ago, there was the CANTON-RANIER laundry van (which was an anagram for REINCARNATION). Could it be said that after the characters each died, they were reincarnated in purgatory? Or does reincarnation necessarily imply coming back to the same plane of existence you were on before?
I don't remember that. Was there anything specific that it was supposed to be a reference to? I could sort of see it being a hint about MIB/Locke.

I imagine that if you were telling a story that involves both different planes of existence and reincarnation, then you could certainly combine them.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:32 AM   #464
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Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)
Large planes have reverse thrust, which can be used to actually back up a plane if cranked all the way up. Now, can it move a plane out of a jungle? Maybe it had some help from the Island.

I would have much preferred if Smokie pushed the plane into position earlier.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:34 AM   #465
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Here's another theory about the wreckage at the end, during the credits. What if it were another plane that Hurley made crash in order to find his own replacement?
I would hope Hurley served for more than just a couple of years before throwing in the towel. I would hope that after a few hundred years that air travel evolves a little bit.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:34 AM   #466
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I'm opening myself up to the possibility that maybe instead it was Jack, while lying in the plug room, being bathed in the light/water mix and still being like-Jacob/Hurley, that made the sideways.
I like that idea.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:35 AM   #467
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Seems like Jacob could have been a little more forthcoming with Jack (I know, that's NEVER been a complaint before). Jacob got Desmond back to the island, so we have to assume that Jacob understood what Desmond could do. If he thought Desmond's abilities would only destroy the island, he wouldn't have brought him back.
I don't think what happened was Jacob's plan...it was MiB's plan, only it didn't work out the way he intended.

Jacob wanted Jack to take over the Jacob role and keep MiB trapped on the island. MiB wanted to use Desmond to unplug the hole and free him. Jack thought Desmond was important to Jacob's plan, not MiB's, so let him do his thing. When he realized his mistake, he improvised (brilliantly), taking advantage of the power-down to kill MiB, then anoint Hurley as his successor and go back into the cave to re-stop the hole.

Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:36 AM   #468
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I don't think what happened was Jacob's plan...it was MiB's plan, only it didn't work out the way he intended.

Jacob wanted Jack to take over the Jacob role and keep MiB trapped on the island. MiB wanted to use Desmond to unplug the hole and free him. Jack thought Desmond was important to Jacob's plan, not MiB's, so let him do his thing. When he realized his mistake, he improvised (brilliantly), taking advantage of the power-down to kill MiB, then anoint Hurley as his successor and go back into the cave to re-stop the hole.

Which probably gives Jack the all-time record for shortest tenure of an Island Protector!
But Jacob had Widmore bring Desmond back to the Island. Why do that if he didn't plan for him to do something?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:38 AM   #469
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Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?
Things are moving so fast I think this got Lost. Anyone know what happened to them?
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:39 AM   #470
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Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)
I think they can only use it on the ground, not in the air.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:41 AM   #471
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Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)
The thrust can be diverted back towards the front of the plane, thus giving it a reverse.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:41 AM   #472
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Was I alone in confusion on how the plane backs up? I didnt know planes had a "reverse" gear..
(havent read all 16 pages)
I believe it's call a thrust redirector? Part of the engine cowling(?) moves behind the exhaust of the jet redirecting the thrust forward, usually used for slowing the plane down after landing.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:44 AM   #473
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Ben's on top of a cliff, and he just casually THROWS a walkie talkie to James?? Nice catch! Oops, dropped the walkie.. Game over..
Well, not to mention the fact that it still worked after jumping off the cliff and swimming to and from the boat.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:45 AM   #474
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Frank survived a submarine explosion? PLEASE!
The Island wasn't finished with him yet.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:48 AM   #475
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I guess my questions are about the whole motivation for what happened throughout the show.

If Jacob planned or manipulated the plane crash to find a replacement, why did he need a replacement? Did he foresee his death? And if he knew that he was going to die, why not do something to avoid his death or to kill his brother? It seems to me if he had killed, or had someone kill Ben Linus, Jacob would have been safe to live happily on the island.

What drew the survivors back to the island after the 1st escape. If they had not returned, Ben doesn't kill Jacob, Locke's body never returns to the island, and there are still a couple candidates left on the island (Sawyer and Jin). So why would Jacob draw them back?

I guess my problem with the finale is that Jacob has been setup as the puppet-master of the whole series, and I don't see any reason that a puppet-master would do things this way, instead he would have picked an easier path.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:52 AM   #476
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When did Hurley die? Why was he in the church?
He died when he died. We don't know when any of the people who got off the island died, either. Hugo could have been the island's protector for a year or a thousand, it didn't really matter.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:58 AM   #477
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Also, what happened to all the people that went with locke before he killed everyone in the temple? ie the flight attendant and the children? Did they get stuck on the island?
Some, maybe all of them died in the mortar attack my Widmore's crew. I don't think we know for sure.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:58 AM   #478
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I guess my questions are about the whole motivation for what happened throughout the show.

If Jacob planned or manipulated the plane crash to find a replacement, why did he need a replacement? Did he foresee his death? And if he knew that he was going to die, why not do something to avoid his death or to kill his brother? It seems to me if he had killed, or had someone kill Ben Linus, Jacob would have been safe to live happily on the island.

What drew the survivors back to the island after the 1st escape. If they had not returned, Ben doesn't kill Jacob, Locke's body never returns to the island, and there are still a couple candidates left on the island (Sawyer and Jin). So why would Jacob draw them back?

I guess my problem with the finale is that Jacob has been setup as the puppet-master of the whole series, and I don't see any reason that a puppet-master would do things this way, instead he would have picked an easier path.
I think the answer to that is that Jacob just wasn't that bright. He made up the rules as he went along. Also, he kept looking for a replacement for the same reason his mother did - he wanted out.

As Ben said to Hurley, "maybe there's a better way."
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:58 AM   #479
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Things are moving so fast I think this got Lost. Anyone know what happened to them?
Desmond took them home or Hurley protected them.
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:01 PM   #480
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Al I have to say now is...

What happened, happened.
It only ends once.
Let it go and move on.
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