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Old 10-11-2010, 11:47 AM   #931
richsadams
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Originally Posted by tcfcameron View Post
I would bet, that once you do, and your freeware allows people to get the same result as a DVR_Dude drive or the other sellers' drives, in a DIY fashion, there will be some heated debating started over the forum sponsors losing money, claims of intellectual property infringement, etc.
If that were ever going to be an issue, it would have come up with winMFS years ago (or even the Hinsdale upgrade methods before that). The forum sponsors are just that, this isn't a for-profit forum and the only censorship I've ever seen (besides spam, flames, etc.) is when someone strays into discussing TiVo stock or violation of the actual image posting regulations.

The folks making money off of TiVo upgrades shouldn't be too concerned anyway. Although there seems to be a lot of activity here, the actual numbers are miniscule as compared to boxes in the wild. They'll still have plenty of "plug and play" customers that haven't a clue how to go about doing what we've been doing here IMHO.
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Old 10-11-2010, 12:00 PM   #932
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If that were ever going to be an issue, it would have come up with winMFS years ago (or even the Hinsdale upgrade methods before that). The forum sponsors are just that, this isn't a for-profit forum and the only censorship I've ever seen (besides spam, flames, etc.) is when someone strays into discussing TiVo stock or violation of the actual image posting regulations.

The folks making money off of TiVo upgrades shouldn't be too concerned anyway. Although there seems to be a lot of activity here, the actual numbers are miniscule as compared to boxes in the wild. They'll still have plenty of "plug and play" customers that haven't a clue how to go about doing what we've been doing here IMHO.
I didn't mean that the forum sponsors would actually come into this thread and start anything (or put a stop to anything).

I mean forum users, who think that projects like this could hurt the forum sponsors, thus resulting in the collapse of the forum, the sky falling, global warming, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, etc.

Somebody posted such an objection early on, with Comer's project. If I could easily find it, I'd quote it.

There are people here that are TiVo fanboys and TCF fanboys, so much so, that what we are doing here is heresy to them. I'm not one of them, for the record.

As far as the "it would have happened before" part of your opinion, I only disagree, in that, the economy is different now, than it was in almost every time period associated with the prior methods / sources of methods to upgrade TiVo hard drives. So, this may just be the time that -somebody- actually tries to stop the things that we pretty much take for granted, such as DIY TiVo storage upgrades. On the other hand, nothing of the sort may happen. Only time will tell.
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Old 10-11-2010, 12:17 PM   #933
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I didn't mean that the forum sponsors would actually come into this thread and start anything (or put a stop to anything).

I mean forum users, who think that projects like this could hurt the forum sponsors, thus resulting in the collapse of the forum, the sky falling, global warming, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, etc.

Somebody posted such an objection early on, with Comer's project. If I could easily find it, I'd quote it.

There are people here that are TiVo fanboys and TCF fanboys, so much so, that what we are doing here is heresy to them. I'm not one of them, for the record.

As far as the "it would have happened before" part of your opinion, I only disagree, in that, the economy is different now, than it was in almost every time period associated with the prior methods / sources of methods to upgrade TiVo hard drives. So, this may just be the time that -somebody- actually tries to stop the things that we pretty much take for granted, such as DIY TiVo storage upgrades. On the other hand, nothing of the sort may happen. Only time will tell.
Got it. Again, though, if someone were going to step in it would have already happened IMHO. There's just no case for it based on forum rules…not that rule makers can't change them of course. I've had personal conversations with the owner of DVRUpgrade and he's a very stand-up guy. DVRUpgrade/Weaknees have a business model that understands that competition (free or otherwise) is part of the landscape. Plus again, although we think our ranks are large, we're a tiny blip on the radar made up of enthusiasts that just aren't part of the "norm" when it comes to folks looking to get a little more recording space. Most will take the easy route and buy an Expander. The slightly more adventurous will continue to buy from Weaknees, DVRUpgrade and even the odd e-bayer and risk opening their TiVo's. People willing to spend time opening, fussing with their computers, running programs and the like are pretty rare. Although some have probably come and gone from this thread without ever saying a word, you can count on a couple of hands or so how many have actually posted their questions and results here.

Anyway, I think we're more than safe and kudos to you, Comer and all of the TiVo Pioneers here!
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:31 PM   #934
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At least somebody is figuring it all out

I would bet, that once you do, and your freeware allows people to get the same result as a DVR_Dude drive or the other sellers' drives, in a DIY fashion, there will be some heated debating started over the forum sponsors losing money, claims of intellectual property infringement, etc.
As it stands, Comer's work provides almost (or very close to) the result offered by the commercial vendors. On a 2gb drive the difference in recording time is pretty small.

I suspect most users, at least the more adventurous ones can live with that. I certainly can.

It would be nice to get that extra space; but it's just not a necessity.
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:54 PM   #935
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Thanks Comer for the great work and the JavaMFS Live CD. I was able to upgrade my stock Premiere to 2TB, using a Hitachi 2TB hard drive I picked up from Fry's last week. It seems that the new Hitachi drives no longer allows you to edit the AAM settings. There is a review on amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/review/RJ69LRF...#RJ69LRFN7YFNN) that says there's a way to enable the functionality in the BIOS, but I have yet to get that to work. It's a little louder than optimal, but it's ok for now.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:08 PM   #936
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It seems that the new Hitachi drives no longer allows you to edit the AAM settings.
That shouldn't be the case, although the current version of Hitachi's Feature Tool doesn't work, v2.11 should and if not that hddscan should work as well. I'd give one or the other of those a try if the noise continues to be an issue. More information about both (plus the HFT iso) can be found in the Drive Expansion and Upgrade FAQ (specifically Section IV, #32):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...60#post5616160

Enjoy your "new" TiVo!
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:39 AM   #937
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That shouldn't be the case, although the current version of Hitachi's Feature Tool doesn't work, v2.11 should and if not that hddscan should work as well. I'd give one or the other of those a try if the noise continues to be an issue. More information about both (plus the HFT iso) can be found in the Drive Expansion and Upgrade FAQ (specifically Section IV, #32):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...60#post5616160

Enjoy your "new" TiVo!
Thank you. I'll give it a shot this weekend.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:41 PM   #938
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It appears that the newest WD GP drives no longer require the Intellipark feature to be tweaked at all. ("Newer" being somewhere around the second week of September or so.) Drives with a manufacture date prior to that often need the tweak. Trial and error is about the only way to find out…or you can just run wdidle3.exe and not worry about it.
My drive arrived today! - Manufacture date is 9/22/10 - Do you think I'm safe regarding the Intellipark feature??? How should I verify?

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Old 10-13-2010, 09:12 PM   #939
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That shouldn't be the case, although the current version of Hitachi's Feature Tool doesn't work, v2.11 should and if not that hddscan should work as well. I'd give one or the other of those a try if the noise continues to be an issue. More information about both (plus the HFT iso) can be found in the Drive Expansion and Upgrade FAQ (specifically Section IV, #32):

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...60#post5616160

Enjoy your "new" TiVo!
Hmm, I've downloaded HDDscan and the older Hitachi Feature Tool, and both show the new Hitachi 2TB HDD as "Not Supported" for the Automatic Acoustic Management (AAM) feature. I'll have to see if I can somehow switch to IDE mode from AHCI mode within my BIOS.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:51 PM   #940
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My drive arrived today! - Manufacture date is 9/22/10 - Do you think I'm safe regarding the Intellipark feature??? How should I verify?
The only way to fnd out would be to perform the upgrade, install the drive and see if it will reboot from a menu restart. If not (or if it doesn't boot up at all) then you'll probably need to run wdidle3 to extend or disable the Intellipark timeout. Not very scientific, but that's about it.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:55 PM   #941
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Hmm, I've downloaded HDDscan and the older Hitachi Feature Tool, and both show the new Hitachi 2TB HDD as "Not Supported" for the Automatic Acoustic Management (AAM) feature. I'll have to see if I can somehow switch to IDE mode from AHCI mode within my BIOS.
Understood. It's quite possible that hddscan hasn't caught up with the 2TB drives...or may never, it's hard to say and the old HTF program may only work on 1TB or smaller drives as well. I could had sworn that I remember some folks being able to adjust the AAM on the 2TB Hitachi drives though...but it's becoming a blur anymore.

It'll be good to know if you're successful...making you a bit of a TiVo Pioneer yourself!
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:18 AM   #942
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I just upgraded mine......
I pretty much followed hotoru's guide on post #869 of this thread except if I would have hit "e" at the expand option it would have exited I believe. I just had to hit "y" to confirm the expansion.
Sorry, glad you were paying attention. I wrote that part from memory. I will change on the post (#860)

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Old 10-14-2010, 12:29 AM   #943
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Intelli to park or not to park

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My drive arrived today! - Manufacture date is 9/22/10 - Do you think I'm safe regarding the Intellipark feature??? How should I verify?
Mine was mnfg in 9/2010 but I still disabled the intellipark. I understood the problem as early drive failure. I thought it was 'probably' fixed by 9/2010. But, I decided the benefits of intellipark did not outweight the risk of early drive failure with loss of up to 2TB worth of shows and a $100 drive. You can run the WDidle program without arguments to check the intellipark status. (As per my post #860)
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:08 AM   #944
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The only way to fnd out would be to perform the upgrade, install the drive and see if it will reboot from a menu restart. If not (or if it doesn't boot up at all) then you'll probably need to run wdidle3 to extend or disable the Intellipark timeout. Not very scientific, but that's about it.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!
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Mine was mnfg in 9/2010 but I still disabled the intellipark. I understood the problem as early drive failure. I thought it was 'probably' fixed by 9/2010. But, I decided the benefits of intellipark did not outweight the risk of early drive failure with loss of up to 2TB worth of shows and a $100 drive. You can run the WDidle program without arguments to check the intellipark status. (As per my post #860)
Thanks for both responses! I was just wondering if I should disable intellipark anyway, so both comments came in handy. Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:31 AM   #945
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Not sure if anyone would want to use a Seagate drive, but this is about the best price I have seen on a 2T yet:

$89.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...22148413-L012B

$10 off with promo code EMCZYZR58

I used a 1T in my 1st HD TiVo and never had an issue, but I know some people have been turned off to this by the issues Seagate had recently.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:00 AM   #946
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Mine was mnfg in 9/2010 but I still disabled the intellipark. I understood the problem as early drive failure. I thought it was 'probably' fixed by 9/2010. But, I decided the benefits of intellipark did not outweight the risk of early drive failure with loss of up to 2TB worth of shows and a $100 drive. You can run the WDidle program without arguments to check the intellipark status. (As per my post #860)
I'm not sure where the Intellipark/"early drive failure" idea ever came from. AFAIK there's no evidence that Intellipark would have any effect on the longevity of a hard drive, particularly in a TiVo. I did a little research and couldn't find anything to support that theory. If someone can point us to a source it would be very helpful. Otherwise there's no need to worry about it IMO.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:07 AM   #947
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Not sure if anyone would want to use a Seagate drive, but this is about the best price I have seen on a 2T yet:

$89.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...22148413-L012B

$10 off with promo code EMCZYZR58

I used a 1T in my 1st HD TiVo and never had an issue, but I know some people have been turned off to this by the issues Seagate had recently.
That's certainly a very good price! The specs list the acoustics at 2.6 bels which isn't as quiet as some drives, but not that bad either. The AAM can't be changed on Seagate drives, so if you can live with that, it's worth a try. I think we'd all like to hear how things go!
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:13 AM   #948
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That's certainly a very good price! The specs list the acoustics at 2.6 bels which isn't as quiet as some drives, but not that bad either. The AAM can't be changed on Seagate drives, so if you can live with that, it's worth a try. I think we'd all like to hear how things go!
I posted a link before here. From the article:
Quote:
It is worth noting that there are no actual failures attributed to this problem as yet — just a number of drives that are reporting rapid (and unusual) increases in load/unload cycles via the drive's SMART reporting feature. Some drives are approaching the rated specification of 300,000 load/unload cycles after less than a year of ownership. While the drives are extremely unlikely to give up the ghost right as the counter crosses 300,000, exceeding the specification indicates the point where the risk of failure begins to increase.
(underlined is my point of view)

I personally observed that effect on one of my drives and that drive did fail - for this reason or not - I don't know. YMMV of course.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:18 AM   #949
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That's certainly a very good price! The specs list the acoustics at 2.6 bels which isn't as quiet as some drives, but not that bad either. The AAM can't be changed on Seagate drives, so if you can live with that, it's worth a try. I think we'd all like to hear how things go!
I've got my 2 TiVo's upgraded now, but I thought their might be an adventurous soul out there.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:59 AM   #950
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I'm not sure where the Intellipark/"early drive failure" idea ever came from. AFAIK there's no evidence that Intellipark would have any effect on the longevity of a hard drive, particularly in a TiVo. I did a little research and couldn't find anything to support that theory. If someone can point us to a source it would be very helpful. Otherwise there's no need to worry about it IMO.
Well, that would vary, depending on how loosely you use the term "failure". HDD head retract/reload cycles are part of the SMART logging set. They start at a number like 255, 200, or 100, depending on the manufacturer, and tick downward incrementally over time as the number of cycles increases, eventually reaching zero. Just like Power-On Hours Count, when zero is reached, the SMART status of the drive may change to "BAD", which some may mistake as failure. This may also depend on the software you use to read the SMART data, as to how it interprets that register. Just like power-on hours, it doesn't mean the drive is now bad and must be replaced, but is supposed to be an indicator of drive age/workload.

Short version: if you have an environment or configuration where the drive retracts the heads, but then then reloads them almost immediately (and this repeats itself too often), you run the counter down very fast (some flavors of *nix are known for this).

This rumor about failure, wouldn't even affect TiVos. They are always reading/writing, excluding reboots, which would prohibit the counter from ticking-down at an accelerated rate (quite the opposite). This is why simply extending the Idle3 timer on WD drives works just as well as disabling it completely.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:30 PM   #951
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Well, that would vary, depending on how loosely you use the term "failure". HDD head retract/reload cycles are part of the SMART logging set. They start at a number like 255, 200, or 100, depending on the manufacturer, and tick downward incrementally over time as the number of cycles increases, eventually reaching zero. Just like Power-On Hours Count, when zero is reached, the SMART status of the drive may change to "BAD", which some may mistake as failure. This may also depend on the software you use to read the SMART data, as to how it interprets that register. Just like power-on hours, it doesn't mean the drive is now bad and must be replaced, but is supposed to be an indicator of drive age/workload.

Short version: if you have an environment or configuration where the drive retracts the heads, but then then reloads them almost immediately (and this repeats itself too often), you run the counter down very fast (some flavors of *nix are known for this).

This rumor about failure, wouldn't even affect TiVos. They are always reading/writing, excluding reboots, which would prohibit the counter from ticking-down at an accelerated rate (quite the opposite). This is why simply extending the Idle3 timer on WD drives works just as well as disabling it completely.
Excellent info...and makes perfect sense. So it would seem folks here (at least) shouldn't have any worries and we can put that idea to bed as they say. Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:31 PM   #952
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I've got my 2 TiVo's upgraded now, but I thought their might be an adventurous soul out there.
Volunteers? Anyone? Anyone?
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:11 PM   #953
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Not sure if anyone would want to use a Seagate drive, but this is about the best price I have seen on a 2T yet:

$89.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...22148413-L012B

$10 off with promo code EMCZYZR58

I used a 1T in my 1st HD TiVo and never had an issue, but I know some people have been turned off to this by the issues Seagate had recently.
Newegg also put the WD20EARS on sale for $99 with free shipping. That's the one I bought but paid $110 for it. My drive was due to be delivered on the day I saw the price drop, so I called and they gave me credit for the difference.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:08 AM   #954
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I've got a new one for you. I while back I mentioned I wanted to make a backup of my 2TB drive. Well I finally got a chance to play with making a backup. I recently got a free copy (giveawayoftheday) of Paragon Drive copy and it has a raw mode. I tried it. It took 6 and a half hours via direct SATA connection to the motherboard but after it was finished I stuck it in the TiVo and it worked flawlessly. It showed 317 HD hours and even did an update with no issues.

So if anyone wants to do a Windows copy of the TiVo drive, it works well, albeit slowly. Plus, it said the TiVo drive partition was "undefined" but copied it anyway. Interesting.
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Old 10-15-2010, 08:38 AM   #955
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I've got a new one for you. I while back I mentioned I wanted to make a backup of my 2TB drive. Well I finally got a chance to play with making a backup. I recently got a free copy (giveawayoftheday) of Paragon Drive copy and it has a raw mode. I tried it. It took 6 and a half hours via direct SATA connection to the motherboard but after it was finished I stuck it in the TiVo and it worked flawlessly. It showed 317 HD hours and even did an update with no issues.

So if anyone wants to do a Windows copy of the TiVo drive, it works well, albeit slowly. Plus, it said the TiVo drive partition was "undefined" but copied it anyway. Interesting.
80MB/s? Seems a bit too fast for 1-to-1 copy. It may have skipped some areas that it deemed inconsequential Did you have any recordings, do they all play fine?
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Old 10-15-2010, 06:10 PM   #956
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What about the WD20EURS?

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FWIW if I were going to upgrade my Premiere XL today I'd go with Western Digital's WD20EVDS:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136494

Price-wise it's a little higher than some of the other WD 2TB drives, but it's a dedicated A/V hard drive so the AAM is already set to 128 and based on recent reports if this drive has been manufactured after August 1 or so the issue with the Intellipark feature and soft reboots doesn't apply. So that would be my choice of the moment.

I used to be a die-hard Seagate man, but over the past few years their QC has plummeted for some reason. Seems like that happened about the same time they acquired Maxtor, but it could be a coincidence. So WD has moved from lower in the food chain to near the top if not top on my list now. I've also had great success with Hitachi's Deskstar 7K1000.C HD31000 IDK/7K. (http://amzn.to/cinYZz or http://amzn.to/bmY99L) They run very cool and quiet and the three I have have been flawless for over a year now. They are 1TB however so I'm not sure about the 2TB version.

BTW, at today's current prices I wouldn't waste my time with a 1TB or 1.5TB drive. My rule of thumb has always been buy as much space as you can afford even if you don't think you'll use it.

The 4K Sector format hasn't affected TiVo upgrades to date.

I'm sure others will chime in but hope that helps and happy upgrading!
Is the WD20EVDS still the drive of choice? Isn't the WD20EURS still tunable to AAM of 128 with the DOS tools? Based on the WDC website, the EURS is 1dB quieter for both idle and seek. It also seems to be cheaper. Wondering what others thoughts and experiences are.
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Old 10-15-2010, 06:19 PM   #957
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Is the WD20EVDS still the drive of choice? Isn't the WD20EURS still tunable to AAM of 128 with the DOS tools? Based on the WDC website, the EURS is 1dB quieter for both idle and seek. It also seems to be cheaper. Wondering what others thoughts and experiences are.
Welcome to the forum! The WD20EVDS is a good choice, a number of folks are using them here. AFAIK no one has ever used the EURS series. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work and you s/b able to adjust the AAM, but it's an unknown. The second most popular drive to use is the WD20EARS.
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Old 10-16-2010, 01:17 AM   #958
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80MB/s? Seems a bit too fast for 1-to-1 copy. It may have skipped some areas that it deemed inconsequential Did you have any recordings, do they all play fine?
Yes and yes they did. Everything worked well!
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Old 10-16-2010, 07:36 AM   #959
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Arrow The Premiere "supersize" missing link?

How many hours did the original drive show?

If I am reading your posts correctly, you either copied a DVR_Dude type drive and got an equal copy, or you managed to gain hours, exceeding the current maximum with Comer's method, after you made the clone. In either case, this is great news, as long as there were no problems introduced.

So how was your original 2TB drive prepared? Was it a pre-imaged drop-in, or was it made with Comer's tools?

I'll bet that, in either case, if you could get the MFS file system partition data, from both drives, and post it, it may shed some light on a way to get everybody that extra storage that has been elusive to the DIY community.

I know that it may not be something you really want to do, but "doing that little extra and sharing the pertinent data" is how we thrive here.

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Originally Posted by gespears View Post
I've got a new one for you. I while back I mentioned I wanted to make a backup of my 2TB drive. Well I finally got a chance to play with making a backup. I recently got a free copy (giveawayoftheday) of Paragon Drive copy and it has a raw mode. I tried it. It took 6 and a half hours via direct SATA connection to the motherboard but after it was finished I stuck it in the TiVo and it worked flawlessly. It showed 317 HD hours and even did an update with no issues.

So if anyone wants to do a Windows copy of the TiVo drive, it works well, albeit slowly. Plus, it said the TiVo drive partition was "undefined" but copied it anyway. Interesting.

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Old 10-16-2010, 05:56 PM   #960
comer
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3T = 3 Thumbs down

Perhaps you would be interested to know that all of your donations - thank you very much - (and my birthday money) went into acquiring a 3TB seagate drive mentioned here earlier (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-580-_-Product). I guess that was a good news. The bad news is that it can not be used in Tivo. Neither as an internal nor as an external drive (the upcoming version of jmfs has an ability to add any drive as external - ala "bless"). I tried straight image of a stock 320G on it as an internal, without any expasion tricks - Tivo goes into boot-waitaminute-boot-waitaminute loop. If used externally Tivo does not recognize it - "your external storage has been disconnected, press CLEAR to remove". It feels very much like BIOS or hardware limitation or incompatibility. Linux on a PC sees the whole 3T capacity without a problem connected through SATA directly. W7 sees the drive as ~700G only connected through generic SATA-USB. However, through Seagate's stock USB dock the drive is seen correctly as 2794G on the same Winodws.
So, again, looks like Tivo Premiere is hard-limited to 2TB total storage
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Last edited by comer : 11-27-2010 at 09:41 AM.
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