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Old 09-11-2010, 02:29 PM   #571
mkkelly75
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
Understood. AFAIK the manufacture date isn't on the box anywhere, only on the drive itself. I take it you bought the drive recently...can you let us know the retailer?

TIA for posting the manufacture info at some point.

Now enjoy!
I bought it at Best Buy, it was a little bit more expensive than online, but I had a gift card and the whole instant gratification thing got the better of me
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:30 PM   #572
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I bought it at Best Buy, it was a little bit more expensive than online, but I had a gift card and the whole instant gratification thing got the better of me
Thanks...that answers my other question about a retail box Vs OEM drive. Good to know.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:42 PM   #573
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Thanks...that answers my other question about a retail box Vs OEM drive. Good to know.
My mistake it was a EADS drive and the manufacture date is 20 September 2009. If I had remembered the Intellipark issue before I would have disabled it to begin with, but I have had one soft reboot with no issues, so hopefully I am good to go.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:50 PM   #574
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My mistake it was a EADS drive and the manufacture date is 20 September 2009. If I had remembered the Intellipark issue before I would have disabled it to begin with, but I have had one soft reboot with no issues, so hopefully I am good to go.
Still good information...thanks!

If you conducted a menu reboot once it s/b fine going forward, but there's no harm in trying it again if you get bored.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:47 PM   #575
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WD A/V dedicated hard drives have several features not found in their standard cousins, one being that the Auto Acoustic Management (AAM) is tuned to it's lowest level (128). That reduces the seek noise of the heads. Unfortunately TiVo by design isn't able to take advantage of the other A/V features of those drives.
The most important feature is that AV drives designed/certified to work in always-on 24x7 mode. Other drives are not.
And Tivo is an always-on environment
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:15 AM   #576
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The most important feature is that AV drives designed/certified to work in always-on 24x7 mode. Other drives are not.
And Tivo is an always-on environment
That concept has been discussed here and elsewhere and has some merit. However the difference in drives isn't so much about the time the drive is active but the data throughput/workload demand, error recovery and such.

Enterprise class hard drives are the workhorses when it comes to 24/7 operations. They have additional sensors (vibration, fly height adjustment, etc.). There are some firmware differences including recovery timing settings (TLER in WD drives for example). The combination of these differences results in higher reliability, which makes a difference in the specifications. For WD the Unrecoverable Bit Error (UBE) is the same for both consumer and enterprise models. So if it were all about 24/7 heavy duty operations, an enterprise class hard drive would be the ideal for TiVo, which of course would be stupendous overkill (not to mention replicating the sound of a thrashing machine ).

Although it's true that TiVo is reading/writing data 24/7, in a TiVo environment as opposed to a true enterprise/server high performance environment, the workload TiVo (or any other DVR for that matter) handles is light to very light by comparison even when taking into consideration the possibility of processing/recording two HD signals, playback, broadband downloading, etc. all occurring at the same time. That said, a true enterprise drive would think it was on holiday if it were slipped into a TiVo. Having owned and maintained servers I would have never considered using an A/V dedicated hard drive in one, they just aren't cut out for that sort of duty. So it's a bit apples and oranges when it comes down to what drives can and can't do and what makes one better than another.

TiVo OEM drives have never been enterprise class (5900 RPM with a miniscule 2MB cache). They are however A/V dedicated hard drives. For example the TiVo HD's OEM drive is the WD1600AVBS, and the TiVo HDXL sports a WD10EVVS hard drive.

Also as mentioned, Western Digital's A/V dedicated hard drives have a number of proprietary features including "Silkstream", "Intelliseek", "Intellipark" and "Preemptive Wear Leveling" (PWL) all of which for one reason or another TiVo cannot take advantage. These added "features" contribute to the cost of the drives but not to any actual performance enhancements in TiVo.

"Certified" is generally a marketing term with no actual measurable standard. None of the TiVo OEM hard drives are "certified" for anything by their manufacturer Western Digital.

Going with an A/V dedicated hard drive can certainly do no harm and as mentioned can save some time when it comes to AAM adjustments. With respect to one being "better" than another, the proof is in the performance and to some extent longevity. Based on years of posts here and elsewhere both types of drives perform identically in a TiVo application and mean time to failure (MTTF) rates are just about identical as well. YMMV of course.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:40 AM   #577
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I bought a 2TB OEM (just came in a plastic static bag) harddrive WD20EVDS from frys in arlington, tx. I did not check the manufactor date, but will try to (it's already installed). I did not adjust intellipark and I have rebooted it successfully without any hangups.

Also, while I'm not sure if the premium I paid for the av drive is worth it (I'm just guessing there reallky isn't much difference), the original tivo internal drive is an av-gp wd 320gb drive...so I replaced it with a drive in the same family, makes me feel good- it seems there is a ~$30 premium I paid to feel good...
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:01 AM   #578
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Ok, sorry for the dumb questions but I'm having a helluva time installing java. I'm using the Ubuntu CD live. I try installing it runnind this:

ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Downloads$ sudo ./jre-6u21-linux-i586-rpm.bin

and I get this every time:

inflating: jre-6u21-linux-i586.rpm
./jre-6u21-linux-i586-rpm.bin: 160: rpm: not found


What am I doing wrong?

I had the same problem. Try downloading the bin instead of the rpm.bin file from Java. It should take care of the problem.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:27 AM   #579
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"Certified" is generally a marketing term with no actual measurable standard. None of the TiVo OEM hard drives are "certified" for anything by their manufacturer Western Digital.
Marketing - true. Does not mean anything - not true If words "designed for 24x7" do not mean anything, then why not stick them on all models and get ahead of the other guy who didn't? Out of two, average consumer would go for something that looks more reliable, right?
Even if Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) is the same (sidenote: MTBF is higher for enterprise-level HDs, which is written ih huge bold letters right on the first page about the product - when they can they do ) it means that manufacturer will not deal with large volumes of returns of the drives used in 24x7 environment where manufacturer knew they would not last. It's money. So they do advertize drives for 24x7 which can perform, and do not advertize drives that can not perform. Even though they do not give technical details why they think so - it does not mean there are not any reasons for that.
In microchip world it may be equivalent to sorting out the same batch of chips, made from the same waffer, by the speed at which they can perform reliably. They are identical otherwise! But some make it to 1.3Ghz (just as an example) others only upto 1.0Ghz.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:42 AM   #580
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Find a study that shows the average MTBF is better on A/V drives than regular consumer drives, and I will agree with you (an actual use case study, not manufacturer claims). Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything in a Tivo which is the point Rich is making. I too do not believe that you will get longer service from an A/V drive, it's all a matter of luck with drives nowadays. Get one from a bad run or bad firmware and it won't matter if it's A/V certified or not, it's going to fail sooner than it should.

Or maybe it's just cosmic rays, who knows.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:37 PM   #581
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Marketing - true. Does not mean anything - not true If words "designed for 24x7" do not mean anything, then why not stick them on all models and get ahead of the other guy who didn't? Out of two, average consumer would go for something that looks more reliable, right?
Even if Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) is the same (sidenote: MTBF is higher for enterprise-level HDs, which is written ih huge bold letters right on the first page about the product - when they can they do ) it means that manufacturer will not deal with large volumes of returns of the drives used in 24x7 environment where manufacturer knew they would not last. It's money. So they do advertize drives for 24x7 which can perform, and do not advertize drives that can not perform. Even though they do not give technical details why they think so - it does not mean there are not any reasons for that.
In microchip world it may be equivalent to sorting out the same batch of chips, made from the same waffer, by the speed at which they can perform reliably. They are identical otherwise! But some make it to 1.3Ghz (just as an example) others only upto 1.0Ghz.
24/7, yes...I was saying that "certified" is a marketing term which has no measurable standard. With respect as to why wouldn't manufacturers claim all hard drives are suitable for 24/7 use, one could cynically argue that it would remove their ability to generate a higher margin for a like product...similar to charging more for a blue car than a white one. But I'm not quite that cynical. . I do know that enterprise class drives are actually built differently. I also know that dedicated A/V drives are also built slightly differently...however as mentioned, TiVo cannot (or perhaps doesn't need to) take advantage of the additional features.

MTBF is in fact higher for enterprise class drives but we need to keep in mind the A/V dedicated drives we're talking about are not enterprise class.

Anyway, I think we agree that a good A/V dedicated drive is a good investment. From personal experience (I'm using both) and several years of posts on the TCF and other forums, there doesn't seem to be any empirical or really even compelling evidence that they perform any better or worse or last any longer than the recommended "standard" hard drive options.

That said, the more positive posts I read about 2TB upgrades here...the more difficult it is not to jump on the bandwagon! Thanks very much for your continued hard work on this...you have a lot of happy "customers" (of which I will likely be another pretty soon).

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Old 09-12-2010, 03:44 PM   #582
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Anyway, I think we agree that a good A/V dedicated drive is a good investment. From personal experience (I'm using both) and several years of posts on the TCF and other forums, there doesn't seem to be any empirical or really even compelling evidence that they perform any better or worse or last any longer than the recommended "standard" hard drive options.
Of course
I am a bit bitter because of multiple drive failures I have experienced for the past year. It included WD Caviar Greens. I mentioned it in other posts. However, I replaced it with WD AV-GP drive and it has been fine so far (few months).

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That said, the more positive posts I read about 2TB upgrades here...the more difficult it is not to jump on the bandwagon! Thanks very much for your continued hard work on this...you have a lot of happy "customers" (of which I will likely be another pretty soon).
No problem As Socrates said in "Peaceful Warrior": "There's no greater purpose than service to others."
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:55 PM   #583
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Marketing - true. Does not mean anything - not true If words "designed for 24x7" do not mean anything, then why not stick them on all models and get ahead of the other guy who didn't? Out of two, average consumer would go for something that looks more reliable, right?
Even if Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) is the same (sidenote: MTBF is higher for enterprise-level HDs, which is written ih huge bold letters right on the first page about the product - when they can they do ) it means that manufacturer will not deal with large volumes of returns of the drives used in 24x7 environment where manufacturer knew they would not last. It's money. So they do advertize drives for 24x7 which can perform, and do not advertize drives that can not perform. Even though they do not give technical details why they think so - it does not mean there are not any reasons for that.
In microchip world it may be equivalent to sorting out the same batch of chips, made from the same waffer, by the speed at which they can perform reliably. They are identical otherwise! But some make it to 1.3Ghz (just as an example) others only upto 1.0Ghz.
I've been using non Enterprise Drives in TiVos(over two dozen) for almost nine years. I've yet to have an issue with any of them. Even the drives from my philips DirecTv TiVos from the early 2000's are still going strong. I put in 80GB ide drives and my girlfriends neice is using those boxes today with no issues.
And the next gen Philips DirecTV TiVos I put even larger drives in. I gave them to my a friend and he is still using the three of them. They have been running 24/7 for around six years.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:00 PM   #584
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The only TiVo drive failure I had was during a power outage that have about 3 power cycles in about 10 seconds. That killed it. I know it was not a AV drive.

I now have a UPS on my main TiVo.

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Old 09-12-2010, 05:10 PM   #585
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My take on upgrading drives.
People that do it don't keep them long enough to know if or when they die. Maybe some do, but if you're an upgrade geek like me as soon as the next upgrade size comes along you go for it.
Personally the only drives I've seen fail in 24/7 operation were 6-7 years old and I'm talking about PC's that are in an industrial environment.
I think that the quality of drives available today will last as long as the technology does for 95% of users.
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:18 PM   #586
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Great discussion on hard drives. Thanks guys, and keep the opinions coming.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:10 PM   #587
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I've been using non Enterprise Drives in TiVos(over two dozen) for almost nine years. I've yet to have an issue with any of them. Even the drives from my philips DirecTv TiVos from the early 2000's are still going strong. I put in 80GB ide drives and my girlfriends neice is using those boxes today with no issues.
And the next gen Philips DirecTV TiVos I put even larger drives in. I gave them to my a friend and he is still using the three of them. They have been running 24/7 for around six years.
You are one generous kind of guy!
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:37 PM   #588
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WD GP and AV-GP feature sets and what WD (and myself) have to say about them

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Also as mentioned, Western Digital's A/V dedicated hard drives have a number of proprietary features including "Silkstream", "Intelliseek", "Intellipark" and "Preemptive Wear Leveling" (PWL) all of which for one reason or another TiVo cannot take advantage. These added "features" contribute to the cost of the drives but not to any actual performance enhancements in TiVo.
I've been wanting to say something regarding how some people keep stating that none of these AV feature sets can be utilized by the TiVo (or in this case stating that they can't/won't enhance performance).

I disagree, but only in a matter of degrees:

Some feature sets are embedded and operate entirely within the drive. "S.M.A.R.T." is a good basic example. But, if said feature set is also supported by the host, you can get more from the feature (read the SMART data that is stored on the drive, for example). While not the best example, it's one everybody knows of (pretty much). You can also take a SMART capable drive that has been running in a host that doesn't support SMART, move it to one that does, and the SMART data will all be there to read. Now, on the flip side of the coin, there are feature sets that are useless without host support (such as SilkStream, which some day may be advanced enough that the drive itself can detect the type of data and automatically utilize the appropriate feature set, but until/unless that happens, useless).

Here's some further thoughts, as well as a few quotes from Western Digital's website and spec sheets:

The current WD20EADS (GP, non-AV) drive specifications include:
"Intelliseek - Calculates optimum seek speeds to lower power consumption, noise, and vibration." - from WD web site.

Intelliseek seems to be doing it's job very well with the WD20EADS drives in my four TiVo HDs. (I believe it is also a firmware controlled feature that does not require the host to support it to utilize it.) I have found that my TiVos get laggy when doing things such as reorganizing SPs and other drive-intensive operations if I enable AAM at all, while not making any discernible difference in audible seeking noise. I also tested this by using Hitachi Feature Tool, which allows real-time adjustment of AAM with a slider and allows you to listen as the software makes the drive perform full/random seek operations. My WD20EADS drives (bare OEM from Fry's) came with AAM disabled. I believe they were manufactured in Q3, 2010.

One feature that is not listed for GP-only (but is listed for WD20EVDS AV-GP):
"IntelliPark - Delivers lower power consumption by automatically unloading the heads during idle to reduce aerodynamic drag." - this feature is only listed on the spec sheets for the AV-GP, yet if it isn't in the GP-only feature set, why would WDIDLE3 be needed for non-AV models? So, it must be there and function at some capacity, but the TiVos apparently lack a proper command to un-park the heads, thus WD must have began including that into the firmware, making it another fully firmware controlled feature, like IntelliSeek, in the newer (more recently manufactured) drives. It actually seems like there is nearly no need for this feature in an AV-GP drive, yet it has potential for use in GP-only drives, where it isn't listed as a feature. <scratching head on this one>

This is a feature listed for WD20EADS (GP, non-AV):
"NoTouch ramp load technology - The recording head never touches the disk media ensuring better drive protection in transit as well as significantly less wear to the recording head and media." -If a TiVo being rebooted from the menu, (hypothetically), sends a "Shut-Down" or "Standby" command to the drive, but something in the newer drives' firmware changed and the "Resume" command isn't properly recognized by the drive firmware, this could explain things with the "soft-reboot issue". Perhaps WDIDLE3 is really adjusting this, when used on GP-only drives. Note that this is not the same as IntelliPark, which could be something that the FAQ could include in the future to avoid confusion (hint-hint, wink).

Preemptive Wear Leveling (PWL) AV-GP models only:
"The drive arm frequently sweeps across the disk to reduce uneven wear on the drive surface common to audio video streaming applications." This is a drive firmware controlled feature. It does not matter what the drive is connected to. (Yet, I fail to understand what this could achieve, since WD brags about how "The recording head never touches the disk media..." in both the AV-GP and the GP-only models. How does a head, riding on air, that never touches the platter, cause uneven platter wear?)

"StableTrac - The motor shaft is secured at both ends to reduce system-induced vibration and stabilize platters for accurate tracking, during read and write operations. (2 TB models only)" - This isn't listed as a feature on the AV-GP 2TB model, but it is on the GP-only 2TB.

It seems to me that the GP-only drives may actually have a few features that don't rely on the host they are installed in to be functional, which actually make them better than the AV-GP drives (for TiVo use). One thing that is true, and will certainly be beaten like a dead horse, is that non-AV drives don't have a 24x7 rating. I'm not concerned about it. I care more about "features" and which ones actually are of benefit to me when the host is my TiVo. I've been running hard drives in computers 24x7 for over 10 years, and it's always been the ones that weren't being run 24x7 that died early deaths.

Yes, I just now realized that this post is a bit off-official-topic. Maybe I'll move it, or just delete it, after a few days... Nothing said here is really different for the Premiere, though, AFAIK...

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Old 09-13-2010, 02:09 AM   #589
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I've been wanting to say something regarding how some people keep stating that none of these AV feature sets can be utilized by the TiVo (or in this case stating that they can't/won't enhance performance). <snip>
Thanks for that and although we've certainly strayed a bit OT, I think these discussions are, if not a little self indulgent, beneficial for a number of reasons.

I still stand by my and other's supposition that most of the various features in A/V drives either do not enhance TiVo's performance or are not used at all, but your points are well taken.

Over the years a general rule of thumb has been that it is better to leave a hard drive running 24/7, at least with respect to longevity. Many experts have said that the repeated power surges required to spin up a drive, un-park heads and so on will contribute to a shorter lifespan. So that may explain a little about why A/V drives are touted to be "better" (in a sense) than others.

In any case, thanks for taking the time to share. I think we agree on things for the most part and we can certainly agree to disagree on some of the finer points.

Bottom line is that we all want our TiVo's to perform as best as they can for as long as possible and it's conversations like this that can make a difference for those that follow.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:40 AM   #590
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It has been a good discussion; Very informative.

However, since I already ordered the 2T EARS, the drive is cast

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Old 09-13-2010, 09:34 AM   #591
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Is the hard drive in the Premiere an SATA 3 or SATA 6?
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:54 AM   #592
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Is the hard drive in the Premiere an SATA 3 or SATA 6?
I would imagine it's SATA 3. I can't see any benefits to having an SATA 6 controller and SATA 6 drive.
However, SATA 6 drives are backwards compatible, so they'll work with the Tivo.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:41 AM   #593
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Newegg has both the WD20EADS and EARS on sale with free 120gb WD Elements external for free shipped.
The EARS is 109 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136514

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Old 09-13-2010, 10:46 AM   #594
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Is the hard drive in the Premiere an SATA 3 or SATA 6?
The hard drive inside the TiVo Premiere is a 320GB SATA- 2, WD3200AVVS.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:49 PM   #595
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I would imagine it's SATA 3. I can't see any benefits to having an SATA 6 controller and SATA 6 drive.
However, SATA 6 drives are backwards compatible, so they'll work with the Tivo.
I miagine that it would be overkill.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:23 PM   #596
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$95 - 2TB WD Hard Drive

And the price continues to drop. 2TB WD GP Hard Drive - WD20EARS for $94.99 w/free shipping...

http://dell.to/bmW3pA
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:51 PM   #597
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Not to veer too far off topic, but are the drives being discussed (EADS/EARS) good for NAS applications? I keep my machines running 24/7, but not nearly with the read/write workload like a TiVo has. What would be good in a NAS (thinking of the ReadyNAS discussed in other threads) or other type of RAID setup?
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:50 PM   #598
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Not to veer too far off topic, but are the drives being discussed (EADS/EARS) good for NAS applications? I keep my machines running 24/7, but not nearly with the read/write workload like a TiVo has. What would be good in a NAS (thinking of the ReadyNAS discussed in other threads) or other type of RAID setup?
It really depends on what you want your NAS to do. They would be fine as long as you didn't need high read/write/access speeds. WD GP drives are not up to the performance of full/standard 7200 RPM drives. The GP drives do use less energy, run quiet and cool though. If you're planning on streaming video you should probably go with the WD Black series or a similar drive from another manufacturer.

We have a D-Link 323 NAS w/2 1TB Hitachi Deskstar 7K2000.c drives inside running RAID 1 (mirrored). It works fine for our purposes, saving and streaming our iTunes and iPhoto libraries as well as copies of our DVD movie library that I rip to it.

That said, you're right, recommendations for NAS hardware, RAID setups, etc. are probably pretty far OT and best discussed on forums like the Broadband DSL or SmallNetBuilder. Plus I'm sure you'll get better information from the "experts" there rather than folks that only know enough to be dangerous like me.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:32 PM   #599
RichB
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I have 6 2TEADS green drives in my ReadyNas.
I can write to the NAS at around 90MB/sec.

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Old 09-13-2010, 07:30 PM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeboy View Post
Not to veer too far off topic, but are the drives being discussed (EADS/EARS) good for NAS applications? I keep my machines running 24/7, but not nearly with the read/write workload like a TiVo has. What would be good in a NAS (thinking of the ReadyNAS discussed in other threads) or other type of RAID setup?
I've got two EARS drives in my Drobo. No problems so far.
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