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Old 04-23-2010, 12:16 AM   #1
Airhead315
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Legalities of MRV and the Copyright flag

Ok, so here is the situation. If the cable company controls the CCI bit and they set it to "Copy Once" then how can the cable company legally transfer the recording to a different box? Are they able to garauntee DRM requirements between the boxes?

Is the problem of not being able to do MRV actually a fault of TiVos inability to garauntee DRM that is causing this problem?

If there is no legal means to transfer the recording from one tivo to another(ignoring capabilities) then how can it be legal for any other piece of equipment(such as the cable co box)?

We all know that FIOS has MRV...but we also know that FIOS doesnt set the CCI bit on almost all of its channels. Coincidence? Are there cable companies offering MRV and also setting the CCI bit?
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:43 AM   #2
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I don't think "legal" is quite the right concept here. As you note, it's the cable company (not the channel, much less the copyright holder) that sets the CCI flag, and it's the cable company that rents you their set-top boxes. So they can do whatever they want, since they're only enforcing their own policies.

TiVo, also, is not limited by law in the sense that it's illegal to ignore the CCI flag, because it's not. Rather, TiVo has to agree to obey the CCI flag in order to get a license from CableLabs to use CableCard technology. CableLabs is owned by the cable companies, so, again, they can arbitrarily set policy for their own equipment. The FCC places some limits on how restrictive the cable companies can be with the CCI flags, but they aren't going to stop anyone from being less restrictive.

At least this is my understanding.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:31 AM   #3
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Cable companies will do whatever they legally can to stifle competition.
Now that the FCC is getting involved, hopefully some of that will be thwarted.
I'm not holding my breath, though.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
Ok, so here is the situation. If the cable company controls the CCI bit and they set it to "Copy Once" then how can the cable company legally transfer the recording to a different box? Are they able to garauntee DRM requirements between the boxes?
I can't speak for all Cable companies, but in FIOS' mult-room solution I believe they get around the CCI bit b/c they stream the recording from the DVR to STB, they don't copy it. Since there is no copy made, there is no need to enforce the "copy" restrictions of the CCI bit. They do use a special method for streaming to enforce the DRM (DTCP-IP, I think).
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:15 AM   #5
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I can't speak for all Cable companies, but in FIOS' mult-room solution I believe they get around the CCI bit b/c they stream the recording from the DVR to STB, they don't copy it. Since there is no copy made, there is no need to enforce the "copy" restrictions of the CCI bit. They do use a special method for streaming to enforce the DRM (DTCP-IP, I think).
So it sounds like Tivo could legally provide MRV...to stream HD you need 8Mb/s (Thats 1MB/s). It is my understanding that this rate is a little to close for comfort for the processor in the Tivo HD and Series 3 boxes...but what about the TiVo Premier? Has there been any chatter about TiVo adding this type of functionality? It has to be legal, I mean, look at slingbox...this is essentially what they do.
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Scyber View Post
I can't speak for all Cable companies, but in FIOS' mult-room solution I believe they get around the CCI bit b/c they stream the recording from the DVR to STB, they don't copy it. Since there is no copy made, there is no need to enforce the "copy" restrictions of the CCI bit. They do use a special method for streaming to enforce the DRM (DTCP-IP, I think).
That is correct. The FiOS boxes stream over MoCA.

Microsoft and Arris (Moxi) also do MRV via streaming as well. Microsoft can do MRV by copying as TiVo does but you'll run into the CCI flag issue.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:50 PM   #7
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Moxi streams the recorded shows. They do not copy. They use an encrypted DTCP-IP to stream shows/live TV from the Moxi to the Moxi Mate.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:20 AM   #8
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So TiVos defenition of MRV is to implement file transfer capability, meanwhile other companies that offer MRV are streaming the feed. So in reality we should probably be requesting TiVo fix thier MRV to actually stream the feed rather than constantly complaining about the cable companies excersizing thier legal right to protect thier content. The reality of it is that as soon as a file hits TiVo desktop it is 2 clicks away from torrent and usenet. I am starting to point less and less blame at the cable companies and more and more blame at TiVo for implementing MRV in such a way that it requires DRM free material to use it.

I hate DRM just like the next guy, I would much rather not have copy protection on music, tv, movies, etc... but at the same time if I opened a company and developed a new piece of software I would want a way to at least discourage piracy...
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:49 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
The reality of it is that as soon as a file hits TiVo desktop it is 2 clicks away from torrent and usenet...
I would think that TiVo, if they chose to fix the MRV to work with copy protection, could limit the MRV to only work between tivos.
Tivo Desktop wouldn't even have to be involved with the process.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
So TiVos defenition of MRV is to implement file transfer capability, meanwhile other companies that offer MRV are streaming the feed. So in reality we should probably be requesting TiVo fix thier MRV to actually stream the feed rather than constantly complaining about the cable companies excersizing thier legal right to protect thier content. The reality of it is that as soon as a file hits TiVo desktop it is 2 clicks away from torrent and usenet. I am starting to point less and less blame at the cable companies and more and more blame at TiVo for implementing MRV in such a way that it requires DRM free material to use it.
...........
Just in the last year there have been about five threads on this topic in this forum and this obviously good idea has been arrived at in each case. I can't believe TiVo is so obtuse as not to be aware of this possiblity, even without reading this forum. Apparently, for reasons that will be known only to them, TiVo doesn't see fit to change this.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:09 AM   #11
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Just in the last year there have been about five threads on this topic in this forum and this obviously good idea has been arrived at in each case. I can't believe TiVo is so obtuse as not to be aware of this possiblity, even without reading this forum. Apparently, for reasons that will be known only to them, TiVo doesn't see fit to change this.
I believe they may have been held back by the Series 3/TiVo HD hardware specs(specifically max transfer rate), but with the release of premier they really have no justification for not fixing MRV...

Someone mentioned how TiVo had to abide by CableLabs rules and thats why Cable Co's can do MRV and TiVo cannot. In reality though, most of the STB's offered by cable cos have a permanent CableCard, If I look in the top of my STB I can clearly see a cable card mounted inside.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:26 PM   #12
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Since Comcast only flags premium channels where I live, I rarely run into any MRV problems. Last night, however, I was really annoyed when I went to watch Party Down. My wife was already asleep in the master bedroom where the show was recorded, so I decided to watch it in the basement. I forgot that Starz is a premium channel, so you can imagine my frustration when I went to transfer it and I couldn't. Yes, streaming would be a much better solution. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that TiVo sees the light and rectifies this situation.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:58 PM   #13
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There is really no difference between streaming and copying. What matters is whether CableLabs approves of what you do. As long as they see TiVo as, at least in part, a competitor, expect trouble.
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:32 PM   #14
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To answer the OP's original question, "copy once" content can't be transferred via MRV. The "once" is the copy made on the recording DVR.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
Ok, so here is the situation. If the cable company controls the CCI bit and they set it to "Copy Once" then how can the cable company legally transfer the recording to a different box? Are they able to garauntee DRM requirements between the boxes?

Is the problem of not being able to do MRV actually a fault of TiVos inability to garauntee DRM that is causing this problem?

If there is no legal means to transfer the recording from one tivo to another(ignoring capabilities) then how can it be legal for any other piece of equipment(such as the cable co box)?

We all know that FIOS has MRV...but we also know that FIOS doesnt set the CCI bit on almost all of its channels. Coincidence? Are there cable companies offering MRV and also setting the CCI bit?

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Old 04-24-2010, 08:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
Ok, so here is the situation. If the cable company controls the CCI bit and they set it to "Copy Once" then how can the cable company legally transfer the recording to a different box? Are they able to garauntee DRM requirements between the boxes?

Is the problem of not being able to do MRV actually a fault of TiVos inability to garauntee DRM that is causing this problem?

If there is no legal means to transfer the recording from one tivo to another(ignoring capabilities) then how can it be legal for any other piece of equipment(such as the cable co box)?

We all know that FIOS has MRV...but we also know that FIOS doesnt set the CCI bit on almost all of its channels. Coincidence? Are there cable companies offering MRV and also setting the CCI bit?
Because.... in the CONTRACTS that the Cable Co signs with the NETWORK involved. So when the Cable Co allows you to transfer a show from one cable company OWNED box, to another cable co owned box it is because they are allowed to do so by their contract with the original network.

This is ONE of the reasons (Not the only one) that Mark Cuban had with Time Warner Cable & is why you no longer find any of the HDNET channels on any of TWC's networks. For those of you who don't know Mark Cuban is from Dallas. Owns a major share of HDNET and also owns the Dallas Mavericks Basketball team.

As far as FIOS not making use of their CCI bit currently. It is because of contractual agreements with the networks. Same reason.

As far as why the TiVo recognizes the CCI bit and acts accordingly. It is that way so they can be approved by cable labs (Cable labs certification) to use cable cards.

TiVo's CEO in his latest interview with Molly Wood from CNET said that MRV streaming will be coming to the TiVo's soon. This doesn't mean it will come to the S3/HD/HDXL. It could mean that it will only be available on the S4 & S4XL.
We will just have to see when streaming MRV becomes available. For right now it is all speculation

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Old 04-29-2010, 12:28 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by gweempose View Post
Last night, however, I was really annoyed when I went to watch Party Down. My wife was already asleep in the master bedroom where the show was recorded, so I decided to watch it in the basement.

For the love of all that is holy, Tivo, if this isn't enough argument to get streaming now, what is?


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Old 04-29-2010, 01:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Airhead315 View Post
So TiVos defenition of MRV is to implement file transfer capability, meanwhile other companies that offer MRV are streaming the feed. So in reality we should probably be requesting TiVo fix thier MRV to actually stream the feed rather than constantly complaining about the cable companies excersizing thier legal right to protect thier content.
almost correct We should keep complaining about the Cable companies use of CCI - part of the things the FCC is looking at is to "clarify" that cable labs should only be doing hardware certification and thus not be able to add in CCI byte flag compliance. That stems from the whole flap over this issue.

TiVo can indeed use streaming and then not worry about CCI bit stuff - however bear in mind that FIOS, Moxi and cable companies only have digital recordings. They have no legacy analog to deal with. I would be fine with streaming only from the premiere but I think TiVo has some priorities on the premiere to sort out and many folks may want the premiere to be less buggy and have full HD menus.
And of course streaming does nothing for TiVoToGo feature so TiVo will find it well worth it to fight the CCI flag at the FCC level no matter what else they do
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