End Tivo discrimination (Multi room blocking (CCI byte)

[dcbarry]

I am looking for help from my fellow Tivo users to help eliminate "Tivo discrimination" by Time Warner Cable -- but I need the help of Comcast, Verizion FIOS and other non-Time Warner cable subscribers.


As you may know, Time Warner Cable has implemented a policy of blocking Tivo users ability to use Multi-Room viewing (or the Tivo desktop application) for every channel on their system, except for the Broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, etc) which they must NOT block by law. (This is the famous CCI byte issue.) In essence, they are attempting to de-value the TIVO.... when I have brought this up with the local office and executives, I am told how wonderful thir DVR is, and how I could use thier view-on-demand features, etc, etc.


When pressed on the issue, they claim networks *require* them do this. Which is pretty odd, because, from the casual reports of this issue, only Time Warner seems to implement this policy across the board for non-premium channels (like HBO, showtime, etc.). In fact, most Verizon FIOS users seem to report no CCI (blocking) issues.


I've spoken with one network (Food channel) which is actually owned by Scripps network informally, and my contact indicated that he doubted that any such requirement existed from the network, that it is a decision by the cable company. I was asked if I could gather some more concrete data, which he could then help me forward up to thier management. I'm also going to make a similar effort with the A&E network group as well.


So, here is what I am asking: Can you please, (either by posting here, or by PM to me) test Multi-room viewing (or Tivo Desktop copy) of any (or all) of the following channels. It would be useful to get results for a few channels if possible, or at least one from each group (Scripp owned channels and A&E owned channels.) But any help is appreciated.

(For those of you who know how, you can simply check the CCI byte for the channels).

Please report your results (blocked or not blocked) along with your cable company and region:


(these are "Scripps" owned Networks/channels)

HGTV
DIY
Food Network
Cooking Channel (aka FIne Living)
Travel Channel
GAC (Great American)Channel

These are A&E network channels:

A&E channels
Biography Channel
History channels
Lifetime Channel
Military Channel
Crime and Investigation channel


Thanks in advance for your help with this! This may be tilting at windmills issue, but I'm not giving up with a fight here.

Cheers and thanks in advance

d.

[bicker]

None of those channels are blocked here, by Comcast or by FiOS.

If someone at Time Warner is telling you that they are required by those content providers to apply the CCI byte then they're probably just guessing. You really need to pursue the issue only with the national corporate office, where such agreements are negotiated. If you're dealing with someone regional or local, then you're just spitting into the wind.

Once you do get to the national corporate office, I suspect that what you'll be told will change, to either "It's none of your business" (they'll put it more politely) or "We are deciding to do it, as is our right" (again, they'll put it more politely). Either answer is correct. It'll essentially be a dead-end for you, but at least you'll get a more accurate answer.

[essjay22]

dcbarry, where abouts are you located? dont have my tivo yet but will test this.

[Raj]

Service Electric Broadband Cable (Sparta NJ system) doesn't put the CCI byte to 0x02 on any channels that I subscribe to, which is their "expanded basic" tier and HD. I don't subscribe to HBO or any movie channels so I don't know if they are blocked.

[Gavroche]

Comcast here only sets the flag for premium content, meaning HBO and the like.

Interestingly enough, if I record a premium program on my Series 3, I can not transfer it. If I record the same program on my series 2 from the same channel, I can. (Analog vs Digital issue, I guess, but makes for a nice loophole at least for now.)

[andyf]

Comcast Houston

Premium channels - blocked
All other channels open

[moyekj]

Cox, Orange County, CA
Only premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc) have CCI set, all others are clear.

Part of the blame for this lies with TiVo using copy for MRV, though current Series 3 boxes don't really have high enough network throughput for HD streaming. Hopefully with the next retail box coming up from TiVo it will have high enough network throughput where MRV can be updated to use streaming mode instead of copying mode which will take care of MRV. For TTG of course you would still be SOL.

What I'd really like to see from TiVo is a 4-tuner model and ~ <= $100 client boxes, but I won't hold my breath on that...

[dave13077]

Time Warner, Central New York Region

Everything is blocked except the local broadcat, NBC,CBS,ABC,FOX


Good Luck and let me know if I can help.

[CrispyCritter]

Originally Posted by dcbarry

When pressed on the issue, they claim networks *require* them do this. Which is pretty odd, because, from the casual reports of this issue, only Time Warner seems to implement this policy across the board for non-premium channels (like HBO, showtime, etc.). In fact, most Verizon FIOS users seem to report no CCI (blocking) issues.

If you can get this claim in writing, it might be good ammunition to use. But if you read all their statements that I've seen very carefully, while they seem to be implying this, they actually don't. All they really say is that the CCI byte setting is compliant with their network agreements, which is very different (ie, the agreements do not forbid TWC from setting the bytes.)

[bicker]

Originally Posted by CrispyCritter

If you can get this claim in writing, it might be good ammunition to use.

Very good point. This advice really applies broadly -- perhaps generally -- when dealing with any mass-market service or product provider in the country. If they're just telling you something verbally, you're probably better-off not relying on that information unless you can validate it yourself or gain some other corroboration, and especially if they won't provide it in writing.

Originally Posted by CrispyCritter

But if you read all their statements that I've seen very carefully, while they seem to be implying this, they actually don't. All they really say is that the CCI byte setting is compliant with their network agreements, which is very different (ie, the agreements do not forbid TWC from setting the bytes.)

Another really great point: Very often when folks are not getting what they want, they'll read (or hear) the explanation of why they're getting what they're getting but understand it in a manner such that it is easier to object to. The way I've seen this presented by Time Warner, specifically, in the past, is that what they're doing is in accordance with the agreements they have with the content providers and applicable laws. It is. That's true. That doesn't mean that either the agreements or the law requires them to apply the CCI byte that way, but rather what those words actually mean is that, taken together, the agreements and the law allow them to apply the CCI byte. Again, that's true.

[nhaigh]

I have FIOS in central NJ and can confirm that NO CHANNELS are blocked including HBO and all the premium channels. MRV and TTG work without issue on all of my TiVo's for all channels and programs.

Previously I had Comcast in this area and then they only blocked premium channels such as HBO leaving all other channel clear.

[Revolutionary]

Cox Northern Virginia

They block (0x02) all channels other than the locals and a few completely random non-SDV cable channels.

Bastardos.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by bicker

Another really great point: Very often when folks are not getting what they want, they'll read (or hear) the explanation of why they're getting what they're getting but understand it in a manner such that it is easier to object to.

Is it easier to object to if the content providers are requiring the cable company to do it? It seems to me like that prevents one from objecting, at least to the cable company - there's nothing they can do about it.

The way I've seen this presented by Time Warner, specifically, in the past, is that what they're doing is in accordance with the agreements they have with the content providers and applicable laws.

True. But I think they worded that very carefully so as not to prevent the reader from assuming that the agreements and/or laws require it. (In which case, the person would go away, since they'd think the cable company has no choice in the matter.)

[dlfl]

Although it's interesting to get all the anecdotes about CCI protection in different cable service areas, this is just rehashing old stuff.

The issue with TWC was beat to death in **this recent thread**. Emails were sent to TWC corporate headquarters by several posters and essentially identical responses were received -- see **this post** for an example. Note this critical excerpt:

With respect to Time Warner Cable’s content protection settings, however, they are established in accordance with applicable law and its own agreements with programmers.

Any interpretation of this as saying their agreements with programmers are forcing them to copy protect is just wishful thinking. And to my knowledge this statement is all that TWC has ever said about this subject. Given how many of us have asked them and got this identical response, it's clear to me that's all they ever intend to say.

The law allows them to set CCI protection as they do, much as it galls us, and for their own (unstated) reasons they are doing it.

Please read the **linked thread** and ask yourself what new information you can provide in this thread.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by Brainiac 5

Is it easier to object to if the content providers are requiring the cable company to do it?

You've misunderstood... It is easier to object to a false claim (that the content owners are requiring it) than it is to object to a true claim (that doing it is in accordance with the law and the contracts with the content owners).

Originally Posted by Brainiac 5

True. But I think they worded that very carefully so as not to prevent the reader from ...

Didn't you just word that very carefully?

Their job is to present their product in the best light, without lying. Yes, that means that they will work to present even their limitations in a positive light; that's perfectly fine and reasonable.

It benefits arch-consumerists to surround standard consumer marketing best practice with loads of FUD, but that's all it is, FUD. A consumer who believes that a supplier should be saying things like, "My service is really crappy, you're really going to hate it," is smokin' somethin'.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by dlfl

Any interpretation of this as saying their agreements with programmers are forcing them to copy protect is just wishful thinking.

I'm not sure how it's wishful thinking, since if it were true it would seem to close to door to any possibility of changing things.

But you're right - the situation seems clear: TWC specifically decided to set CCI=0x02, they know some people object, but they don't plan to change anything. There's nothing wrong with writing to them and adding oneself to the list of objectors, but I think your right that there's really nothing else we can add here.

[dlfl]

Originally Posted by Brainiac 5

I'm not sure how it's wishful thinking, since if it were true it would seem to close to door to any possibility of changing things.

But you're right - the situation seems clear: TWC specifically decided to set CCI=0x02, they know some people object, but they don't plan to change anything. There's nothing wrong with writing to them and adding oneself to the list of objectors, but I think your right that there's really nothing else we can add here.

It would be wishful thinking in the sense that some posters here want to catch TWC in a public lie, which they believe could be used to exert moral (or legal?) pressure on them to relax copy protection.

I'm glad you agree we're beating a dead horse here.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by dlfl

It would be wishful thinking in the sense that some posters here want to catch TWC in a public lie, which they believe could be used to exert moral (or legal?) pressure on them to relax copy protection.

My point, exactly, with regard to arguing against something easier to argue against, that I made earlier. They're not lying. Their statement is absolutely honest and accurate. It is, however, not complete/directly in response to the prejudicial question asked. It is unreasonable to expect anyone, except a sworn witness in a court of law, to answer any ol' question you want to ask them, and answer it the way you want them to answer it, especially when you've cynically crafted your question so that the only complete/direct answer possible casts them in a negative light. If you want to say something negative about someone (or, in this case, a company), you're going to have to have the maturity to say yourself, and stand behind it, and indeed, make your assertion, itself, subject to critical scrutiny.

Originally Posted by dlfl

I'm glad you agree we're beating a dead horse here.

Better than beating a live horse.

[djwilso]

Cox Phoenix

All digital channels blocked except local broadcast channels.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by bicker

You've misunderstood... It is easier to object to a false claim (that the content owners are requiring it) than it is to object to a true claim (that doing it is in accordance with the law and the contracts with the content owners).

Okay, I understand, if by "object to" you mean something along the lines of "argue with by saying it's a lie."

Didn't you just word that very carefully?

Guilty as charged.

Their job is to present their product in the best light, without lying. Yes, that means that they will work to present even their limitations in a positive light; that's perfectly fine and reasonable.

I agree, I just don't blame people too much for misunderstanding it, because it specifically avoids contradicting that misunderstanding (while, as you say, not lying).

A consumer who believes that a supplier should be saying things like, "My service is really crappy, you're really going to hate it," is smokin' somethin'.

I agree - the message from TWC is exactly what I'd expect to get from them, and I'm not objecting to it; I'm just recognizing it for what it is. It's purposefully vague (as any letter would be to a customer when the company doesn't have an answer that will make the customer happy).

[bicker]

Originally Posted by Brainiac 5

I agree, I just don't blame people too much for misunderstanding it, because it specifically avoids contradicting that misunderstanding (while, as you say, not lying).

Indeed, I consider it, at that level, a fault-less situation: The writer cast the information in a positive light, which is not a transgression. The reader was not conscientious in comprehending what the write actually wrote, which is not a transgression.

[HTH]

Originally Posted by dcbarry

I am looking for help from my fellow Tivo users to help eliminate "Tivo discrimination" by Time Warner Cable -- but I need the help of Comcast, Verizion FIOS and other non-Time Warner cable subscribers.


As you may know, Time Warner Cable has implemented a policy of blocking Tivo users ability to use Multi-Room viewing (or the Tivo desktop application) for every channel on their system, except for the Broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, etc) which they must NOT block by law. (This is the famous CCI byte issue.) In essence, they are attempting to de-value the TIVO.... when I have brought this up with the local office and executives, I am told how wonderful their DVR is, and how I could use their view-on-demand features, etc, etc.

Try disconnecting the Switched Digital Video box from your TiVo.

Here, in Lincoln, NE (also one of the beta sites for the mystro cable box software, with its own TiVo-crippling features I've posted about before) Time Warner Cable is also blocking analog broadcast channels from being shared between TiVos. In a test, last night I knew I didn't need to record any switched channels, so I took my SDV box out of the loop and recorded a show off of two analog broadcast channels (24 "6:00 PM - 8:00 PM" on 4 KSNB and 18 KFXL, available only in analog). Unlike the recordings made the previous night on the same channels (and 9 KPTM), I could transfer last night's programming.

To me, this proves that the Switched Digital Video box is a Trojan Horse into TiVo-user's homes. They've changed their service to require its presence to access certain channels (and such access is sporadic, often failing to tune the channel) and use it to lock down their whole analog tier against room-to-room sharing (TiVoToGo).

And they make a big deal in how these SDV boxes were developed in conjunction with TiVo and other DVR makers, when in fact they're designed to cripple their features and lock down TWC's service against them.

[Brainiac 5]

I was replying to the other messages so much I never responded to the root of the thread:

Originally Posted by dcbarry

When pressed on the issue, they claim networks *require* them do this.

Others have covered this, but just be aware they don't actually claim this - they say something that leaves open the possibility, but they don't say that's the reason.

I've spoken with one network (Food channel) which is actually owned by Scripps network informally, and my contact indicated that he doubted that any such requirement existed from the network, that it is a decision by the cable company. I was asked if I could gather some more concrete data, which he could then help me forward up to thier management. I'm also going to make a similar effort with the A&E network group as well.

That's a good idea; if the Food Channel or any other network actually cares, they would likely have a better chance of effecting a change than a cable customer would. (Although I certainly wouldn't count anything...)

So, here is what I am asking: Can you please, (either by posting here, or by PM to me) test Multi-room viewing (or Tivo Desktop copy) of any (or all) of the following channels.

I'll try to remember to do that. My guess is that they are not copy protected for me. I'm on Comcast, and they used to copy protect everything they could with CCI=0x02, but interestingly a few weeks ago they changed everything to 0x00 (copy freely) except premium channels.

Thanks in advance for your help with this! This may be tilting at windmills issue, but I'm not giving up with a fight here.

Realistically I think TWC is pretty set on what they're doing, but if you have the energy to pursue it I wish you luck. I must admit that if no one complains, it only makes it more certain that they won't change anything.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by HTH

In a test, last night I knew I didn't need to record any switched channels, so I took my SDV box out of the loop and recorded a show off of two analog broadcast channels (24 "6:00 PM - 8:00 PM" on 4 KSNB and 18 KFXL, available only in analog). Unlike the recordings made the previous night on the same channels (and 9 KPTM), I could transfer last night's programming.

Are you sure the channels are still analog when you have the SDV box attached? Where I am, Comcast simulcasts the extended basic tier in analog and digital - if I have a CableCARD in, I get an SD digital version of those channels; if I take it out, I get them in analog on the same channel numbers.

[HTH]

Originally Posted by Brainiac 5

Are you sure the channels are still analog when you have the SDV box attached? Where I am, Comcast simulcasts the extended basic tier in analog and digital - if I have a CableCARD in, I get an SD digital version of those channels; if I take it out, I get them in analog on the same channel numbers.

They don't come through letterboxed. Of two channels recorded simultaneously with the SDV, one does still report it was recorded at "Best Quality", but the other does not report any quality which may mean it was digital before it got to the TiVo, possibly digitized by the SDV. However, both are locked against sharing.

KFXL and KSNB don't have alternate digital channels on the cable lineup, unlike KPTM which has KPTMDT. And an instance where 9 KPTM was recorded, it says "Best Quality" and yet is locked.

KPTM has its own problems shortly after the bottom of the hour (:30) where 5.1 HD drops to stereo SD and Dolby SD from full-frame to stereo letterboxed in order slide in the time and temperature sponsored by "Children's Hospital and Medical Center", dropping the same bit of dialog in both ("Olivia was responsible for w-- no one else."). This is why I'm recording 24 in quadruplicate.

And then there's the setting of the Copy Once flag on KPTMDT ever since the Baseball World Series, but only if recording the Firewire output using a cable box, not on the TiVo.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by HTH

They don't come through letterboxed.

My SD digital versions don't either - it's the same (4:3) picture you'd see on analog, but sent digitally.

Of two channels recorded simultaneously with the SDV, one does still report it was recorded at "Best Quality", but the other does not report any quality which may mean it was digital before it got to the TiVo, possibly digitized by the SDV. However, both are locked against sharing.

I think if it shows a quality level, then it is analog. I don't think the SDV dongle itself can digitize the channel, but possibly it allows access to a digital version of the channel when you'd otherwise get analog.

KFXL and KSNB don't have alternate digital channels on the cable lineup, unlike KPTM which has KPTMDT. And an instance where 9 KPTM was recorded, it says "Best Quality" and yet is locked.

Interesting. It does sound like the SDV dongle may be adding the flags...

And then there's the setting of the Copy Once flag on KPTMDT ever since the Baseball World Series, but only if recording the Firewire output using a cable box, not on the TiVo.

Really strange... I wonder if KPTMDT set the broadcast flag and the cable box is following it while TiVo is not? (They don't have to follow the broadcast flag.)

[Enrique]

Time Warner cable, San Antonio, Tx

Everything is blocked except the local broadcast, NBC,CBS,ABC,FOX

[convergent]

I'm with TWC in NC. MRV is blocked on everything but the broadcast channels for Tivo HD. With the Series 2, I can MRV anything. Interestingly, they have gone either further in that they completely blocked even recording on the same DVR their MLB Extra Innings last season. I paid over $100 extra for that and was unable to watch the games in HD later than play time. I had to use my old Series 2 and watch them in SD. That is just plainly stupid. MLB's own competing service allows you to watch the games later, and I'd bet that the TW DVR would too. That is more targeted against Tivo users.

[bicker]

Why do you think the same wouldn't apply to folks who choose to use the TWC-issued DVR to record the programming for later playback? It is really important to keep in mind same-to-same comparisons when addressing "targeting".

[lew]

Tivo needs to share the blame. AFAIK tivo is allowed to either stream the show to another DVR or to move the show to another DVR.