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Old 12-17-2009, 06:26 AM   #1
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"Opening Up Set-Tops Would Be Too Costly"

For years now, TiVo owners have capitalized on laws imposed on cable companies to provide access to their programming utilizing separable security, facilitating the use of the subscriber's own host device, specifically, in our case, our TiVos, of course. During that time, however, satellite services have enjoyed waiver from the added cost and trouble associated with complying with such a requirement. And now, yet again, DirecTV is claiming that complying "would be too costly". It's nothing but a lame excuse. They put up weak arguments about satellite is different, but in the end, everything is different from everything else, and in this day and age with widespread broadband access, the excuses are now nothing but attempts to capitalize on the waiver as a cost advantage over their competitors, the cable companies.

This unfair favoritism by the FCC should stop. Either all providers should be made to comply, or no providers should be made to comply... one or the other!

So next time you think to complain about some difficulty getting your TiVo HD to work with your cable company, think about how much easier it is than to get your TiVo HD to work with your satellite provider. That'll help keep things in perspective.


http://www.multichannel.com/article/...Too_Costly.php
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:37 AM   #2
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Well, the FCC has admitted that cable cards are a failure. Perhaps if they come up with another solution hopefully they will force the satallite companites to comply.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=438541
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:47 AM   #3
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I doubt it. Despite the change in regime, it seems to me that there is still an anti-cable/pro-satellite bias at the FCC.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:29 AM   #4
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I doubt it. Despite the change in regime, it seems to me that there is still an anti-cable/pro-satellite bias at the FCC.
It certainly seems that way based on this case. What was the rationale as to why DBS was exempted from separable security?
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:01 AM   #5
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One should not forget to include those telecoms that provide television service, U-verse and FiOS.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:09 AM   #6
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FiOS at least is complying.

DBS was originally exempted because it was an insignificant player in the industry and a burgeoning source of competition, and likely wouldn't survive if burdened by regulation from the outset. Is DirecTV still insignificant?
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:19 AM   #7
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FiOS at least is complying.

DBS was originally exempted because it was an insignificant player in the industry and a burgeoning source of competition, and likely wouldn't survive if burdened by regulation from the outset. Is DirecTV still insignificant?

I would say they are doing pretty well now, in part thanks to that waiver. Did the FCC sya the waiver was to be permanent or was there a time period or other conditions attached to it?
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:23 AM   #8
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The waiver is indefinite.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:02 PM   #9
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It certainly is not an equal footing, shouldn't all providers play by the same set of rules? Makes sense to me, favoritism should not be allowed. Forcing equal rules to apply to all would be a lawsuit I would like to see. Though a judge may just muck that up too.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:27 PM   #10
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Well, the FCC has admitted that cable cards are a failure. Perhaps if they come up with another solution hopefully they will force the satallite companites to comply.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=438541

Well, didnt the FCC allow the cable industry to engineer the seperable security mandate themselves, which they didnt want, and so it is no coincidence it is not supported by those companies who they themselves designed the damn thing. Did the FCC tell them to "use a PCMIA card, and require technicians to make a house visit to setup the cards which they know little to nothing about........"? I doubt it, but wasnt around when this all was negotiated.

You can blame the industry for torpedoeing the whole thing and the FCC for allowing the fox to guard the hen house.

Cable should be made to follow the same rules-I agree.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:35 PM   #11
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For years now, TiVo owners have capitalized on laws imposed on cable companies to provide access to their programming utilizing separable security, facilitating the use of the subscriber's own host device, specifically, in our case, our TiVos, of course. During that time, however, satellite services have enjoyed waiver from the added cost and trouble associated with complying with such a requirement. And now, yet again, DirecTV is claiming that complying "would be too costly". It's nothing but a lame excuse. They put up weak arguments about satellite is different, but in the end, everything is different from everything else, and in this day and age with widespread broadband access, the excuses are now nothing but attempts to capitalize on the waiver as a cost advantage over their competitors, the cable companies.

This unfair favoritism by the FCC should stop. Either all providers should be made to comply, or no providers should be made to comply... one or the other!

So next time you think to complain about some difficulty getting your TiVo HD to work with your cable company, think about how much easier it is than to get your TiVo HD to work with your satellite provider. That'll help keep things in perspective.


http://www.multichannel.com/article/...Too_Costly.php
The cable companies are evil.

For years we've been able to use our own equipment, at least for what's sometimes called "extended basic". Now, with TVs and devices being able to do "in the clear" QAM, what do they try to do? Encrypt everything they can and force us to use their equipment for everything, cripling our own recording devices (unless they're one of the few with cable card slots).

This isn't the time to focus attention on the satellite companies. Not if it's to distract from what the cable companies are doing.
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:15 PM   #12
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Why do you people want satellite user to suffer same fiasco as you did? I don't give a crap about 3rd parties like TiVo making satellite receivers. CE manufacturers besides TiVo don't give a crap either. There are only 2 satellite providers and both of the make excellent DVRs that are far superior to any TiVo or Moxi. Both satellite providers do excellent job providing me services I want. Why should they be forced to use cable cards or similar nuisance when nobody except for Tivo users want them?
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:15 PM   #13
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The cable companies are evil.

For years we've been able to use our own equipment, at least for what's sometimes called "extended basic". Now, with TVs and devices being able to do "in the clear" QAM, what do they try to do? Encrypt everything they can and force us to use their equipment for everything, cripling our own recording devices (unless they're one of the few with cable card slots).

This isn't the time to focus attention on the satellite companies. Not if it's to distract from what the cable companies are doing.
Umm, I don't really like the (cable) digital transition either (but finally got cablecards for one Tivo, and admittedly am starting to think about getting them for the other -- the picture usually *is* better even on my really old TV.. and I don't get *that* many dropouts, though I will always think that analog snow is less bad than digital dropouts)...

But at least in many places, "extended basic" and the entry digital package are the same price.

and if they are going to have distinctions between basic, extended basic, etc., they have to have some way so that people don't get what they're not paying for, don't they?

Don't get me wrong, I STILL would prefer clear QAM mapping on Tivos... I think there's only 1-2 channels I regularly record on that I now have access to with cablecards. (Note I said regularly.. I sporadically record others.)
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:18 PM   #14
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Why do you people want satellite user to suffer same fiasco as you did? I don't give a crap about 3rd parties like TiVo making satellite receivers. CE manufacturers besides TiVo don't give a crap either. There are only 2 satellite providers and both of the make excellent DVRs that are far superior to any TiVo or Moxi. Both satellite providers do excellent job providing me services I want. Why should they be forced to use cable cards or similar nuisance when nobody except for Tivo users want them?
+1 On every point.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:40 PM   #15
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Why do you people want satellite user to suffer same fiasco as you did? I don't give a crap about 3rd parties like TiVo making satellite receivers. CE manufacturers besides TiVo don't give a crap either. There are only 2 satellite providers and both of the make excellent DVRs that are far superior to any TiVo or Moxi. Both satellite providers do excellent job providing me services I want. Why should they be forced to use cable cards or similar nuisance when nobody except for Tivo users want them?
In my opinion, it would foster competition.
As it stands now, CE manufacturers don't want to jump in the pool because of all the restrictions and individual standards.
If the FCC could come up with a set of standards, grow some balls and force all providers to follow them, more manufacturers might be willing to get their feet wet.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:28 PM   #16
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more manufacturers might be willing to get their feet wet.
Might is a key word. Manufacturers are not going to invest money and jump into market that does not want their product. Satellite users are happy with what they get and are not going to pay for something they get for free or at very reasonable cost from the providers. As a matter of fact, cable users did not and will not switch to TiVo or cable card enabled TVs for the same reasons. And from what I read cable DVRs really suck and are leased for much more than satellite DVRs. Competition is only good for the consumers if it provides consumers with a better product at better price. Forcing satellite companies to adapt new standard will increase cost to all satellite users and will only benefit companies like TiVo who will be be able to come up with a new hype for the Wall Street and print more stock certificates. No legit company will be stupid enough to invest into venture that is doomed to fail.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:01 AM   #17
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The cable companies are evil.
Totally ridiculous. You just don't like the fact that you don't own one.

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For years we've been able to use our own equipment
Not on satellite service. If you want to label some companies as evil, you must start with DirecTV and Dish Network. Otherwise, you're just allowing personal enmity to trump rational logic.

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This isn't the time to focus attention on the satellite companies. Not if it's to distract from what the cable companies are doing.
That's insane. The cable companies are providing some measure of open-access; the satellite service are providing none. Fairness demands that open-access focus be placed totally on the satellite services until they at least come close to providing as much open-access at cable companies do now.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:02 AM   #18
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If the FCC could come up with a set of standards, grow some balls and force all providers to follow them, more manufacturers might be willing to get their feet wet.

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Old 12-18-2009, 06:43 AM   #19
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. . . .There are only 2 satellite providers and both of the make excellent DVRs that are far superior to any TiVo . . .
Is this true? I have never used a DVR from a satellite provider. I know the SA DVR provided by my cable company was sub standard compared to my Tivo.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:51 AM   #20
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Totally ridiculous. You just don't like the fact that you don't own one...


Tell us another one, cable boy.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:52 AM   #21
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In the end, aren't satellite in general less expensive than cable. I pay over 150 for tv+internet and most of my friends pay in excess of $200 a month. I'm talking normal paying consumers who don't call retention to threaten to quit.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:16 AM   #22
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Not on satellite service. If you want to label some companies as evil, you must start with DirecTV and Dish Network. Otherwise, you're just allowing personal enmity to trump rational logic.
Nonsense. You just don't know what you are talking about. For years satellite companies allowed (actually required) you to purchase your own equipment. I still have 4 DishDvrs that are purchased and 2 R10s from DirecTV. Only lately they switched to the leased model to reduce an entry price point and to combat piracy. You still can purchase HR21 from DirecTV if you are willing to pay more than twice as much as a leased unit.
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That's insane. The cable companies are providing some measure of open-access; the satellite service are providing none. Fairness demands that open-access focus be placed totally on the satellite services until they at least come close to providing as much open-access at cable companies do now.
Sure, make the open standard that every pirate will be able to use. Satellite companies change access cards and technology all the time to fight the piracy and unlike cable companies they don't get the opportunity to cut the cable.
Make the standard that they have to follow and they lose the last chance to stop theft of signal. With SDV and TA widely used cable companies have 2-way communication with the box and at least some control over cable card use, satellite can not do that. What fairness are you talking about? Repeat of the stupidity of cable cards that nobody wants except for TiVo users? There are 300K Tivo cable card users and 130 million TV households who don't give a crap about TiVo. How is it fair to force everybody suffer so TiVo users can order pizza from their TV?
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:25 AM   #23
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Is this true? I have never used a DVR from a satellite provider. I know the SA DVR provided by my cable company was sub standard compared to my Tivo.
Shall we just say that Samo has some non-standard views on what makes a good DVR? He is way on the end of the spectrum in wanting his DVR to be a straight VCR replacement (eg Wishlists? Bah humbug!)

(I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm misrepresenting his views!)
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:37 AM   #24
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Tell us another one, cable boy.
If you're going to stoop to name-calling, then you are going to have to call me "FiOS boy" now.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:39 AM   #25
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You just don't know what you are talking about. For years satellite companies allowed (actually required) you to purchase your own equipment.
Not the equipment of your own choosing, which is what is relevant here in the TiVo Community Forum!

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Sure, make the open standard that every pirate will be able to use.
That logic argues for doing away with the existing mandate on cable companies. It doesn't defend the waiver granted to satellite companies.

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Make the standard that they have to follow and they lose the last chance to stop theft of signal.
Again, that logic argues for doing away with the existing mandate on cable companies. It doesn't defend the waiver granted to satellite companies.

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How is it fair to force everybody suffer so TiVo users can order pizza from their TV?
Again, that logic argues for doing away with the existing mandate on cable companies. It doesn't defend the waiver granted to satellite companies.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:10 AM   #26
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The cable companies are evil.

For years we've been able to use our own equipment, at least for what's sometimes called "extended basic". Now, with TVs and devices being able to do "in the clear" QAM, what do they try to do? Encrypt everything they can and force us to use their equipment for everything, cripling our own recording devices (unless they're one of the few with cable card slots).

This isn't the time to focus attention on the satellite companies. Not if it's to distract from what the cable companies are doing.
I agree. Even an analog VCR cannot be used anymore unless you are sitting in front of the TV when the show comes on or you are willing to leave the cable box tuned to the channel you want to record on until it is recorded.

Cable Card needs to be fixed to give the customer the rights they have enjoyed for decades before we start worrying about Sat.

If the FCC decides to work on a new standard however Sat providers need to be included in the conversation but a neutral third party needs to do the development this time around.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:19 AM   #27
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I agree. Even an analog VCR cannot be used anymore unless you are sitting in front of the TV when the show comes on or you are willing to leave the cable box tuned to the channel you want to record on until it is recorded.

Cable Card needs to be fixed to give the customer the rights they have enjoyed for decades before we start worrying about Sat.

If the FCC decides to work on a new standard however Sat providers need to be included in the conversation but a neutral third party needs to do the development this time around.
And while we talk about 'rights'... darnit... I have a RIGHT to use my token ring card in my computer... how dare they put an ethernet port on the cable modem.

The words 'i have the right to....' is way overused in this country.... pet peeve of mine.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:35 AM   #28
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I agree. Even an analog VCR cannot be used anymore unless you are sitting in front of the TV when the show comes on or you are willing to leave the cable box tuned to the channel you want to record on until it is recorded.

Cable Card needs to be fixed to give the customer the rights they have enjoyed for decades before we start worrying about Sat.

If the FCC decides to work on a new standard however Sat providers need to be included in the conversation but a neutral third party needs to do the development this time around.
The first step is to have a system that works for everything. The cable companies borked cablecards on purpose, by providing "extra features" via a cable box that you can't get with cable cards. In other words, quite simply, they exploited a loophole in the cable-card mandate, by developing extra services that were purposely NOT cable-card compatible. (Don't complain to me about cable-cards only being a one-way standard, so you can't get VOD on them - the cable card was developed by the cable industry... if they were REALLY interested in preserving that capability, they would have created another version that provides 2-way capability long ago...)

So, the first step is, force ALL functionality to go through a separable device (not just "today's" functionality). Then, let the electronics companies make their boxes to accept these devices, and retail ALL functionality of a cable box. No more loopholes and games.

The cable company is then more than welcome to continue renting out their own boxes (with separable devices in them) and continue that scheme. Again, as long as their boxes don't provide any more capability than what you can get from a user-owned device.

Frankly, due to their intentional screwing of the cablecard standard (remember THEY developed it) I think we should have the electronics companies develop the next standard (or someone not in the cable industry). Allow them the input to the device, but don't let them dictate it... and then have a true-standard that the cablecoms have to adhere to. They don't deserve a second chance to screw over their customers... they've already done enough of that.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:48 AM   #29
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And while we talk about 'rights'... darnit... I have a RIGHT to use my token ring card in my computer... how dare they put an ethernet port on the cable modem.

The words 'i have the right to....' is way overused in this country.... pet peeve of mine.
You can still use your token ring card if you install an ethernet bridge and it will work fine, so your rights are protected.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:09 AM   #30
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I propose the thesis that we (the American people and TiVo lovers) would be better off if the FCC didn't try to foster "video device innovation". The CableCARD/Tuning Adapter history does not engender confidence they can make things better by such "innovative" regulation. What if they had never mandated "separable security" ? We wouldn't have the TiVo Series 3 but that doesn't prove things would be worse overall -- you have to consider what might have emerged instead -- perhaps from TiVo, or not. I'm not convinced that the feasibility of a consumer-friendly DVR that interoperates reliably with all digital cable systems has been proved by the existence of the Series 3 models. I suspect such devices are practically unrealizable. And then if you want one that not only does that but interoperates with all satellite and internet video services -- good luck!
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