TiVo Losing Value

[Stormspace]

In my opinion TiVo is rapidly losing value with the Series 3 and HD lines. Soon, MRV will not be available for anything other than local channels. Time Warner has already stated that the channels on their digital tier will remain copy protected, Comcast is moving to copy protect all of their channels(sans locals).

TiVo users are being hammered by issues involving tuning adapters, cable card, and DRM so much I cannot help but think that the cable operators are trying to impede a competing technology. Time Warner's recent decision to copy protect all channels in the digital tier is just another example of impeding progress.

For me, I'm now going to have to rent a cable box so I can transfer digital shows within my home and with the the tuning adapter fiasco all my transfers to the HD tivo are one way. I thought it had been corrected a few weeks ago, but what I discovered was that my TA had failed thus allowing for shows to be viewed and transferred once more. (sans digital tier stations)

Cable card installations that take three and four visits from the cable company to get them working is another example of the next gen TiVo failure. Whether this is a result of the Cable Co's impeding the device or TiVo's failure to implement the result is the same. Since it effects TiVo's bottom line I'd think they would be more interested in correcting the issue.

DRM too is causing TiVo issues. When all channels are converted to digital like Comcast is in the process of doing, the CCI byte will then prevent all channels from being transferred. MRV will be a thing of the past. Should TiVo implement an IR blaster for the new boxes that allow for bypassing the CCI byte? Or abandon MRV altogether? We are loosing MRV right now and I don't like it. As a single user I have no pull with the Cable Company other than to pull my business and use OTA only. TiVo on the other hand has more resources than myself and should be looking hard at this turn of events. My time with TiVo is counting down right now waiting on my contract to expire. I only hope that TiVo gets it's butt into gear and fixes these issues.

[dlfl]

+1 in general, although I don't see how copy-protection is linked to whether a Tuning Adapter is being used.

Before others chime in I would ask them consider whether they are feeling the full impact of the situation described by the OP. Do they use a Tuning Adapter? Are they on a cable system that copy-protects almost everything like TWC? If not, they haven't really felt the full impact of the overall situation, and may not appreciate the frustration it generates.

[socrplyr]

Originally Posted by dlfl

+1 in general, although I don't see how copy-protection is linked to whether a Tuning Adapter is being used.

It is an indirect relationship with the TA. When the TA is added, users now receive the digital version of their analogs instead. (analogs aren't copy protected, but digitals are)

[trausch]

I only have a TIVO for MRV. I have Charter's crappy Minneapolis service with far fewer HD channels than Direct TV. I dumped Direct TV for MRV. If they disable MRV, I will go back to Direct TV.

[bkdtv]

Originally Posted by Stormspace

In my opinion TiVo is rapidly losing value with the Series 3 and HD lines. Soon, MRV will not be available for anything other than local channels. Time Warner has already stated that the channels on their digital tier will remain copy protected, Comcast is moving to copy protect all of their channels(sans locals).

TiVo users are being hammered by issues involving tuning adapters, cable card, and DRM so much I cannot help but think that the cable operators are trying to impede a competing technology. Time Warner's recent decision to copy protect all channels in the digital tier is just another example of impeding progress.

TiVo is undoubtly working to address this issue with DTCP-IP, which would allow streaming MRV with protected content. This should be a standard feature on the next TiVo. However, due to hardware limitations (i.e. inadequate CPU and memory performance), it may not be possible to support this streaming on existing TivoHD hardware.

[Ziggy86]

Does the Time Warner DVR allow multi room viewing for their copy protected programs? If so is that not hypocritical?

[dlfl]

Originally Posted by trausch

I only have a TIVO for MRV. I have Charter's crappy Minneapolis service with far fewer HD channels than Direct TV. I dumped Direct TV for MRV. If they disable MRV, I will go back to Direct TV.

Minneapolis ? Do you need to update your profile? (It says Pittsburgh.)

[dlfl]

Originally Posted by Ziggy86

Does the Time Warner DVR allow multi room viewing for their copy protected programs? If so is that not hypocritical?

I don't know if it allows MRV, but it can be legal if it is done by streaming or any other way in which two complete copies of the program never exist at the same time. The TiVo MRV and TTG functionalities don't meet this requirement.

I believe TiVo could implement a modified form of MRV that would be legal for copy-protected programs. But you wouldn't end up with copies on more than one TiVo. Streaming doesn't make a complete copy at the destination end, so it would be OK.

[supersportsfan]

Everything you said is so very true. The cable companies are getting too big for their britches. Like you said, it is frustrating, because as it relates to TiVo, the CC's are in the drivers seat, and there is nothing the customer can do about it.

If the DTV TiVo happens, I might start thinking about switching to that, even without MRV, simply to try to put it to the monopolistic cable companies. Where is the FCC in all of this? The cable companies continue to act anti-competitive, and no one ever seems to say anything to them. They continue to "rape" the customer by raising cable costs, not adopting things like the NFL Network, and fooling with line-ups and such.

[dbenrosen]

The cable companies are definitely trying to impede competing products.

I had Cablevision and they were much better about copy protection. I left for FIOS after I tried the Tuning Adapter from CV. I spent 6 months fighting with the Cablecards when I first got my S3 and wasn't about to spend another day on it once the TA didn't work correctly. I realize FIOS may not be an option in many areas, but only some of the premium channels (HBOs, etc) are copy protected at all, and it isn't even everything on those stations and I have had no issues with their Cablecards.

[dlfl]

Originally Posted by supersportsfan

Everything you said is so very true. The cable companies are getting too big for their britches. Like you said, it is frustrating, because as it relates to TiVo, the CC's are in the drivers seat, and there is nothing the customer can do about it.

If the DTV TiVo happens, I might start thinking about switching to that, even without MRV, simply to try to put it to the monopolistic cable companies. Where is the FCC in all of this? The cable companies continue to act anti-competitive, and no one ever seems to say anything to them. They continue to "rape" the customer by raising cable costs, not adopting things like the NFL Network, and fooling with line-ups and such.

[Holding my breath. Waiting for bicker to pounce. ]

I always say: Living well, err... switching providers, is the best revenge!

[moyekj]

Originally Posted by Stormspace

<snip>Comcast is moving to copy protect all of their channels(sans locals).<snip>

I had not heard/seen that. TWC obviously has a corporate policy in place to copy protect all non-local digital channels but it would be news to me if Comcast has also adopted that policy.
Do you have any links/information on this specifically?

[moyekj]

BTW, I totally agree that if I lost the ability to use TiVo To Go and Multi-Room viewing my Tivos would lose substantial value and I would have to look elsewhere for a better solution. In my case that has not happened yet - only premium channels are copy protected by Cox OC here locally. Also working in my favor is about 80% of what I record is from HD locals anyway, so that capability should not be lost regardless of cable provider policies.

[slowbiscuit]

Originally Posted by moyekj

I had not heard/seen that. TWC obviously has a corporate policy in place to copy protect all non-local digital channels but it would be news to me if Comcast has also adopted that policy.
Do you have any links/information on this specifically?

Agreed, that's just wild speculation. In the ATL Comcast recently CP'd the premiums and a few other movie channels (Encores mostly), but that's it.

OP, the Cablecard issues are what they are, and if you're not willing to escalate to get what the FCC mandates then return the Tivo(s). Yes, they suck, but they can be made to work.

[Stormspace]

Originally Posted by moyekj

I had not heard/seen that. TWC obviously has a corporate policy in place to copy protect all non-local digital channels but it would be news to me if Comcast has also adopted that policy.
Do you have any links/information on this specifically?

Maybe someone else here can help, but another poster said it was happening to them where all channels were either going SDV or digital. Sorry, I can't find it.

[Stormspace]

Originally Posted by slowbiscuit

Agreed, that's just wild speculation. In the ATL Comcast recently CP'd the premiums and a few other movie channels (Encores mostly), but that's it.

OP, the Cablecard issues are what they are, and if you're not willing to escalate to get what the FCC mandates then return the Tivo(s). Yes, they suck, but they can be made to work.

My cards are working. It was just a pain. It's the TA, MRV, and copy protection that is causing me the most pain. I'm happy that you aren't suffering though.

[SteadyEddieNYC]

I'm Ready to GIVE up tv/tivo all together and just read a good book- I have had it with TWC of NYC and the shake down- Who is with me? if we all stopped paythem for 30-60 days we can get what we want/need- Money talk folks-

[Grumock]

Originally Posted by SteadyEddieNYC

I'm Ready to GIVE up tv/tivo all together and just read a good book- I have had it with TWC of NYC and the shake down- Who is with me? if we all stopped paythem for 30-60 days we can get what we want/need- Money talk folks-

LOL I am on board already. I dont watch TV my wife does.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by socrplyr

It is an indirect relationship with the TA. When the TA is added, users now receive the digital version of their analogs instead. (analogs aren't copy protected, but digitals are)

You are slightly mistaken. The mapping comes from cablecards. Many companies do map to the digital versions of analogs (in cable STBs and cablecard users). However, a lot of companies still do not provide the digital equivalent of the analogs.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by Stormspace

In my opinion TiVo is rapidly losing value with the Series 3 and HD lines. Soon, MRV will not be available for anything other than local channels.

This will be fixed by switching to streaming. There's no other way around it and I can't see how Tivo can ignore the situation for much longer. TiVo already supports streaming of several formats on the S3 platform. IMHO, they should spend some more effort into adding the ability to stream protected content.

[dlfl]

Originally Posted by slowbiscuit

......OP, the Cablecard issues are what they are, and if you're not willing to escalate to get what the FCC mandates then return the Tivo(s). Yes, they suck, but they can be made to work.

As the OP replied above, it's not just the CC's. It's the whole mix of (1) whatever weird things the cable co may do to their signal, combined with (2) quirky behavior of the TA's (and CC's). In my experience the overall architecture is just trouble prone. I've experienced the following in just 3 months:

1. TA lost provisioning. Took 4 hours of fiddling and phone time to determine that was the problem and get it fixed.

2. When I tune a channel there is frequently a long delay, sometimes greater than 10 secs, before it snaps in or it may never snap in. There is a work-around that usually works (tune up 2 channels then back down). But it's a pain, and if I use an HDMI connection and it delays tuning for more than 5 secs, the remote control locks up and I have to power-cycle the TV to recover. My hunch is the delay is a TA/SDV problem.

3. On several occasions just one of my two tuners started failing to tune anything. Later, a software update occured to the corresponding cable card and since then the problem hasn't occured again. I can get no information on whether this update was actually scheduled, whether it happened to both my CC's, or what the firmware version is, or was.

4. Several of the SDV channels I watch have occasional pixelation and freezes. This despite signal levels and SNR all being in recommended ranges, and RS errors always being zero.

Other people have posted many other problems related to CC's and TA's.

The copy protection is just an additional aggravation.

Willing to escalate? In my experience you spend a lot of time and aggravation "escalating" (e.g., 4 hours just for my TA problem). It's not a very good solution for most people. Thus your comment amounts to saying "using a TiVo HD is only for the brave and hardy". Well, yes, that's pretty much what the OP said in his first post. This doesn't describe the profile of a successful consumer electronics device.

You say to return the TiVo. Is there a known case were TiVo has refunded the purchase price of a TiVo rather than just exchanging for a new or refurbished one? Amazon might do it within the first 30 days, but it usually takes longer than that for the user to realize what a mess they are in.

[spocko]

Originally Posted by rainwater

This will be fixed by switching to streaming. There's no other way around it ...

Could also potentially be resolved by "moving" the file to another tivo.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by spocko

Could also potentially be resolved by "moving" the file to another tivo.

Yes, but I don't see how will work with the TiVo interface. I seriously doubt TiVo is going to want to allow this.

[Stormspace]

Originally Posted by rainwater

Yes, but I don't see how will work with the TiVo interface. I seriously doubt TiVo is going to want to allow this.

If they did it, the user wouldn't see any difference other than perhaps for the show to immediately be unavailable on the device of origin, perhaps marked with some sort of play never flag until the transfer is complete. If they did it right the show wouldn't be visible on the device of origin once the transfer started.

Series 3 and HD TiVo's are expensive. And being one of the first cable card enabled third party DVR's the FCC needs to make certain these guys work. Cable labs didn't have any problems with MRV when the devices were introduced and for the Cable Co's to start with this CCI byte thing 2 years later to defeat competing features in third party devices could be considered a deceptive practice to undermine the usage of Cable Card. And before anyone chimes in saying that the Cable Companies are within their legal rights, I realize that. I just think they are abusing those rights to prevent home recording.

[samo]

Originally Posted by trausch

I only have a TIVO for MRV. I have Charter's crappy Minneapolis service with far fewer HD channels than Direct TV. I dumped Direct TV for MRV. If they disable MRV, I will go back to Direct TV.

And if you do go back to DirecTV you will get streaming MRV with HR2X DirecTV DVR.

[MichaelK]

just another point of data that comcast doesn't appear to have an corporate policy to wash over everything with the 0x02 flag-

My head end was a small local provider. THey flagged EVERY SINGLE (non local reboradcast) DIGITAL channel since like day one of going digital. I mean everthing- even the SD crap channels.

Comcast bought the system maybe a year or so back. Any new HD channels comcast added weren't flagged. THen when the started the shuffle to get ready for the DTA's they SHUT OFF the flags on all the channels except the premium movie channels.

so while there is somewhat less value with my inability to MRV the premium movie channels, it's not huge as usually the content repeats all over and I can put a copy on each S3 (I've got external drives- so for my particular case space isn't a huge issue).


Also of note is comcast is NOT going to SDV en masse. SO I think TWC is a mess with their shoddy TA's and CCI flags but i dont think at the moment it's an industry wide issue.

I think the TW people should complain to the FCC about the TA's crapping out. And to their elected local, state, and national officials about the CCI flag to try and get the law changed. ANd by all means move to Directv or Fios or if you can and let TWC know why. But as a whole I'm surprisingly happy with comcast's practices.

[Grumock]

Originally Posted by MichaelK

just another point of data that comcast doesn't appear to have an corporate policy to wash over everything with the 0x02 flag-

My head end was a small local provider. THey flagged EVERY SINGLE (non local reboradcast) DIGITAL channel since like day one of going digital. I mean everthing- even the SD crap channels.

Comcast bought the system maybe a year or so back. Any new HD channels comcast added weren't flagged. THen when the started the shuffle to get ready for the DTA's they SHUT OFF the flags on all the channels except the premium movie channels.

so while there is somewhat less value with my inability to MRV the premium movie channels, it's not huge as usually the content repeats all over and I can put a copy on each S3 (I've got external drives- so for my particular case space isn't a huge issue).


Also of note is comcast is NOT going to SDV en masse. SO I think TWC is a mess with their shoddy TA's and CCI flags but i dont think at the moment it's an industry wide issue.

I think the TW people should complain to the FCC about the TA's crapping out. And to their elected local, state, and national officials about the CCI flag to try and get the law changed. ANd by all means move to Directv or Fios or if you can and let TWC know why. But as a whole I'm surprisingly happy with comcast's practices.

What about complaining to TIVO about not being progressive & adding the chipset to make them able to receive SDV ? I guess it is just easier to b***h about the cable company. I have an HD TIVO & a MOXI, oh & both need a TA, but at least MOXI is not charging me a monthly subscription for anything, unlike my TiVo. From what i have heard & understand the TIVO 4 still needs a TA too. Heavy sigh

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by Grumock

What about complaining to TIVO about not being progressive & adding the chipset to make them able to receive SDV ? I guess it is just easier to b***h about the cable company. I have an HD TIVO & a MOXI, oh & both need a TA, but at least MOXI is not charging me a monthly subscription for anything, unlike my TiVo. From what i have heard & understand the TIVO 4 still needs a TA too. Heavy sigh

there is NO STANDARD to just "add the chipset to make them SDV" and there is nothing that would force cable to activate such a box. So tivo can NOT just do that. Tivo could perhaps make an OCAP tivo that would work on any system but cable promised to deploy OCAP on the vast majority of their systems as of last June/July and basically did nothing so a tivo ocap box would only work on a handfull of test headends

no one knows what a tivo 4 is- i doubt it will need a TA.

And moxi didn't charge you a monthly fee becasue they collected it all upfront.

not sure at all why you seem to be looking to fight or complain in this thread about unrelated issues.

[steve614]

Originally Posted by dlfl

[Holding my breath. Waiting for bicker to pounce. ]

LOL. Same here.
He must be on vacation.

[Grumock]

Originally Posted by dlfl

If they make the tuner and TA-replacement circuitry mimic TWC STB's and DVR's, then TWC subscribers have a chance at satisfaction. TWC adjusts their encoders and other distribution equipment to work well with their equipment. They have to or they get massive complaints. I suspect a lot of the glitches we get now are because of slight differences in the response of TiVo and TA circuitry, which cause problems that TWC tuners don't have. The pressure for TWC to adjust for good TiVo operation just isn't there, and doing so could be at the expense of good operation with their equipment.

But then if TiVo mimics TWC circuits, that probably compromises performance on other cable systems........

I guess I'll be pleasantly amazed if the TiVo 4 provides good performance on the TWC system.

I look forward to finding out if it will need the TA. One less device to go bad LOL. I would drop my Moxi too if that is the case. Not from a very high height mind you, but I will drop it LOL.