Flashforward "137 Sekunden" 10/08/09 **Spoilers**

martinp13 · 10-08-2009, 10:25 PM

Remember the verification of "I saw the same thing as the other people in my FF" from the first episode, when the bird smacked against the window? I bet that's connected.

Final Ghana scene, what were we seeing? A Klingon Bird of Prey decloaking? Some big tower venting gas? As the boss said "The Earth farted"? That was weird.

martinp13 · 10-08-2009, 10:28 PM

By the way, tonight's Closing Credits Secret Word was

Spoiler:

crazywater · 10-08-2009, 10:35 PM

One thing I noticed was the reference to the Department of Homeland Security in the 1991 records search that Mark and Janis did for decrease in the crow population. There was no DHS in 1991.

And Demetri's reaction to his fiancee telling him she saw him in her FF made no sense at all...

busyba · 10-08-2009, 10:52 PM

I finally figured out what I don't like about Joseph Fiennes in this: he seems to be trying to hard to be Christopher Meloni in L&O:SVU.

Why was the Nazi the only person to notice all the dead crows in the yard?

The fiancee chick saw her wedding, but it looks like she only assumed that Harold was there, we never actually see the groom up close in her FF. Then again, if Harold dies in March, why would she be marrying someone else in April?

GadgetFreak · 10-09-2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busyba

The fiancee chick saw her wedding, but it looks like she only assumed that Harold was there, we never actually see the groom up close in her FF. Then again, if Harold dies in March, why would she be marrying someone else in April?

Don't think she would marry someone else, but why else go? She already has the tickets? She is sad and decides to go anyway? Not sure -- you'd think he would have asked her more details.

Ruth · 10-09-2009, 01:56 AM

I am still intrigued by the concept of this show, but I found this episode kind of incoherent.

What the heck is the main character's motivation at this point? In his vision, his life was basically falling apart: He was drinking again, he seemed freaked out, his office was getting raided, his wife was having an affair, and his daughter was hanging out with a bad man. Of all people, this is the guy who should be working as hard as he can to fight AGAINST the future that he saw. Instead, he is doing exactly the opposite: He appears desperate to recreate what he saw and is doing everything he possibly can to make sure the future happens just that way -- even following totally irrational investigatory leads and begging his supervisors to help him recreate his horribly sucky vision of the future. Why? This show would make a lot more sense to me if he were trying to sabotage all those leads instead of being the one who insists on tracking them all down.

Why are so many people lying about their FlashForwards to their loved ones? People's motivations are not making a lot of sense to me. And given that so many people ARE lying, how can a cornerstone of the investigation be the self-reported Mosiac database?

The plea negotiation with the Nazi -- the whole Nazi subplot, actually -- was ridiculous. The terms were ludicrous, and there wasn't even any paperwork, court approval, anything.

The crow subplot also seemed missing a few links to me. OK, crows were dead. But instead of looking at whether other birds or animals died during the Flash, they totally fixate on crows. I didn't get that. If animals blacked out like humans, you'd expect a whole lot of dead birds, wouldn't you? They would suddenly stop flying and crash to the ground. Why would they all jump to the importance of crows specifically?

Here's one explanation for her seeing him at the wedding when he didn't see it: There are two sets of visions, one for each possible future. In one they get married, in the other, he's dead. Maybe some people saw Option A, and some saw Option B.

tivogurl · 10-09-2009, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busyba

Then again, if Harold dies in March, why would she be marrying someone else in April?

1) She splits up with him. Remember the speculation that he's the father of the other agent's yet-to-be-born baby?
2) She sees something and erroneously assumes it was a wedding. Moreover, she assumes it was her wedding. The thing is, from what we see there is no evidence of a wedding at all. The camera focused on her, not on what she was seeing. They showed very little of that dress she was wearing, so I assume it's misdirection.

tivogurl · 10-09-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinp13

Final Ghana scene, what were we seeing?

Somalia, not Ghana.

tivogurl · 10-09-2009, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruth

Why are so many people lying about their FlashForwards to their loved ones? People's motivations are not making a lot of sense to me. And given that so many people ARE lying, how can a cornerstone of the investigation be the self-reported Mosiac database?

It's a statistical sampling problem. It's assumed not enough of them are lying to skew the pattern, if there is one. Also, in flashforwards with more than one person, all of them would have to be lying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruth

If animals blacked out like humans, you'd expect a whole lot of dead birds, wouldn't you? They would suddenly stop flying and crash to the ground. Why would they all jump to the importance of crows specifically?

Actually, you wouldn't expect to see dead birds. Birds are like mice, too light to hurt themselves because their terminal velocity in free fall is too low. More likely what was seen were unconscious birds, but if they were dead it wasn't the fall that killed them. I assume they fixated on crows because of the other flashforward (the one with Alex Kingston) in which a crow slams into a window.

wmcbrine · 10-09-2009, 02:35 AM

Beware the Ides of March!

cheesesteak · 10-09-2009, 05:32 AM

Sponsor guy's flashforward of his daughter was false? Was this the first false (as of now) vision?

I don't get why governments don't pull the old "April Fools!" trick when negotiating with evil people. At least arrest them immediately again on some trumped up charges right after you release them.

Demitri is the only character I care about at this point. I'm happy to see Gabrielle Union on the show. I like her.

Gunnyman · 10-09-2009, 07:40 AM

I was happy to see Gina Torres.

GDG76 · 10-09-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesesteak

Sponsor guy's flashforward of his daughter was false? Was this the first false (as of now) vision?

She was injured in her flash forward. Maybe she lost a leg or something like that and that's all that made it back and what they happened to sample.

I agree with a previous post. Why is the FBI guy so desperate to start drinking again and be attacked by people with machine guns?

ElJay · 10-09-2009, 08:36 AM

There are already too many mind-screw "I saw that in April 2010 so I did this today" sort of occurrences. So, uhh, what did they originally do to get there? Nazi man's vision required this weird loop of occurrences that Mark Benford appoint himself to the investigation at a time before the event he is investigating even existed. What did customs guy do to originally get the job? The entire interaction between him and Noh seemed to show no draw otherwise to seek out that position.

If the entire story arc is going to be the writers injecting random, completely ridiculous plot points into the story (e.g. old Nazi MacGuffin character taking the FBI for a ride over dead crows) then my patience is going to run out quite fast. I agree with an earlier poster that Benford seems to have no drive for what he's doing, other than he thinks he should do it because he saw himself doing it. In fact that seems to be how a lot of characters are acting. That seems like a lousy life to lead in the meantime. If Noh were following the same philosophy he would just blow his brains today and save himself the suspense of dying.

The writing simply isn't good enough for the premise of the show. Any run of the mill show can do mystery of the week things and then have some weak theory deployed at the end to haphazardly link them together. The better ones can at least make that ride [mostly] enjoyable.

What made people so afraid of air travel? Concern over another FlashForward happening? A plane in the air seems like one of the better modes of transportation to be on, save perhaps a train. Unless the plane is taking off or landing, it's very likely to be on autopilot or otherwise level flight. That is a lot better than driving 75mph down a freeway in a car or bus and then having the driver zone out with no control of the vehicle for the next couple of minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazywater

One thing I noticed was the reference to the Department of Homeland Security in the 1991 records search that Mark and Janis did for decrease in the crow population. There was no DHS in 1991.

That annoyed me too. I don't know how such an obvious factual error could enter a show that wants to act smart.

GDG76 · 10-09-2009, 08:49 AM

I also didn't realize we kept near real-time statistics on crow populations.

Fish Man · 10-09-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesesteak

Sponsor guy's flashforward of his daughter was false? Was this the first false (as of now) vision?

Either Harold or his fiancées vision is "false" too.

He can't both be dead and getting married.

I'm starting to wonder if, as the series progresses, if there won't be more flash-forwards, and possibly some flash-backs too.

What if the sponsor-guy, sometime later, in a flash-BACK has the opportunity to save his daughter from being killed, making his flash-forward come true?

I wonder if there are, indeed, multiple realities and each person saw one possible reality in their flashback.

unicorngoddess · 10-09-2009, 10:19 AM

The bird scene at the end...was that happening current time? They were talking about it happening in 91 so I wasn't sure if that was suppose to be a flash back or what.

Noh confuses me. He should be pushing his fiance to elope right now...just to see if they can change things. Also, assuming Noh is really killed or gone away somewhere or whatever...maybe his fiance was participating in some kind of memorial service.

In the doctor chick's (Penny) replay of her flash forward...this week it sure does look like that guy makes eye contact with her.

I kept waiting for the agents to tell nazi guy...hahaha just kidding! I mean, he comes in and says the german government has signed off on everything and then nazi guy...without even asking for proof...starts spilling his beans. Once he started talking about dead birds, I would've been like, SEEYA!

Also, not to self...apparently the reason behind the length of the blackout was bogus...how 'bout let's NOT put that on the board this iteration. That way if we are stuck in some kind of time loop, next time you won't be so anxious to learn about dead crows.

ElJay · 10-09-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Man

Either Harold or his fiancées vision is "false" too.

I assumed the fiancee was having a vision of a dream...

Snappa77 · 10-09-2009, 10:25 AM

Did 'Harold' ever bust that guy for the bong? Or was it left unsaid?

Fish Man · 10-09-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snappa77

Did 'Harold' ever bust that guy for the bong? Or was it left unsaid?

It was left unsaid, but in my opinion, it was very strongly implied that he didn't.

That wasn't what he was there for, and the fact that the guy smoked weed would have been a triviality compared to the gravity of the case he is working on and the knowledge (of his own impending death) he is dealing with.

No way he would have bothered with a petty pot bust.

busyba · 10-09-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Man

Either Harold or his fiancées vision is "false" too.

He can't both be dead and getting married.

Notice that we didn't actually see Harold in his fiancée's vision.

My guess is that her vision was true, but that she was misinterpreting it and just assumed that Harold was there (even though she didn't actually see him) and she was there to get married to him.

busyba · 10-09-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Man

It was left unsaid, but in my opinion, it was very strongly implied that he didn't.

That wasn't what he was there for, and the fact that the guy smoked weed would have been a triviality compared to the gravity of the case he is working on and the knowledge (of his own impending death) he is dealing with.

No way he would have bothered with a petty pot bust.

Although, you could tell that Agent Harold was really tempted to bust him just because if he busted him then the guy would never become a Customs Agent, which means that his FF would be false which would then mean that maybe Harold won't die.

He keeps oscilating between wanting to change his fate and being resigned to it. He's striking me as a very Hamlet-like character, in that he's in a constant internal battle to try to figure out if he should be the "man of action" or the "man of contemplation", and he always chooses to be the wrong one at the wrong time (for instance, he overthinks it when he has the chance to kill his uncle in the church, and so he doesn't, and then he acts too rashly when he's in his mother's chamber and mistakenly kills Polonious, thinking it was his uncle.)

I suspect that Harold will have more of these "crossroads" moments and each time he'll make the wrong choice that will actually take him closer to his death.

[And if anyone gives me grief over not tagging the 'Hamlet' spoilers, I'm going to kick their ass!

]

Vendikarr · 10-09-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tivogurl

1) She splits up with him. Remember the speculation that he's the father of the other agent's yet-to-be-born baby?
2) She sees something and erroneously assumes it was a wedding. Moreover, she assumes it was her wedding. The thing is, from what we see there is no evidence of a wedding at all. The camera focused on her, not on what she was seeing. They showed very little of that dress she was wearing, so I assume it's misdirection.

My guess is she's there to spread his ashes, and made a ceremony out of it.

Vendikarr · 10-09-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDG76

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesesteak

Sponsor guy's flashforward of his daughter was false? Was this the first false (as of now) vision?
She was injured in her flash forward. Maybe she lost a leg or something like that and that's all that made it back and what they happened to sample.

I agree with a previous post. Why is the FBI guy so desperate to start drinking again and be attacked by people with machine guns?

It was said the exhumed body was compared to the DNA the military had on file. What if the military doesn't want the world to know this girl was captured/injured in the Middle East? A conspiracy maybe?

Fish Man · 10-09-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendikarr

It was said the exhumed body was compared to the DNA the military had on file. What if the military doesn't want the world to know this girl was captured/injured in the Middle East? A conspiracy maybe?

That occurred to me.

Maybe, even, some secret branch of the military and/or government is behind the flash-forward itself, and this is part of the coverup.

Marc · 10-09-2009, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Man

Either Harold or his fiancées vision is "false" too.

He can't both be dead and getting married.

In her vision, I don't think that she saw to whom she was getting married, did she? She may have just assumed that it was going to be to him.

mcdougll · 10-09-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Man

That occurred to me.

Maybe, even, some secret branch of the military and/or government is behind the flash-forward itself, and this is part of the coverup.

I couldn't figure out why he would even want to exhume the body to do the DNA test. They would have done that in the first place to identify the remains, and even if the remains are her leg (for example) that doesn't mean that he couldn't still find his daughter later (sans leg), so there's nothing to be gained by it.

On another topic, I was pretty frustrated with the whole Nazi guy negotation. Why didn't they just say that they will give him what he wants IF his information justifies it. I'm pretty sure dead birds wouldn't qualify, at least in the minds of the agents & German officials.

And didn't they say he claimed to know why the blackout lasted 137 seconds? His answer is to put numbers to letters of a word (written in Herbrew?) and add them up? That doesn't explain anything.

Ruth · 10-09-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendikarr

My guess is she's there to spread his ashes, and made a ceremony out of it.

But at least some of the FFs seem to bring emotional content with them. The woman getting the ultrasound described her feelings about it, and Penny said she knew she had feelings for the guy she was with. If that's true, I don't see how you could mistake a wedding for a funeral.

Ruth · 10-09-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdougll

On another topic, I was pretty frustrated with the whole Nazi guy negotation. Why didn't they just say that they will give him what he wants IF his information justifies it. I'm pretty sure dead birds wouldn't qualify, at least in the minds of the agents & German officials.

And didn't they say he claimed to know why the blackout lasted 137 seconds? His answer is to put numbers to letters of a word (written in Herbrew?) and add them up? That doesn't explain anything.

Yeah. And then AFTER the Kabbalah BS (come on, a Nazi is interested in Jewish mysticism and writes Hebrew? A Nazi?! Gimme a break) they still want to go forward with the ludicrous deal even though it's obvious he's screwing with them?

busyba · 10-09-2009, 05:48 PM

"It has to happen because it will happen."

I suspect that's going to be a recurring theme.