A little rant about Time Warner killing MRV on Tivo HD

[convergent]

I had two Tivo Series 2 DVRs for several years and loved them. Around the beginning of the year, I bought a Tivo HD and planned to migrate to three of them. But... after the three ring circus to get Cable Cards and SDV Adapter in place and working, I learned that Time Warner has basically copy protected everything possible in the programming... so my Tivo HD works great by itself, but Multi Room Viewing is dead. There are many reasons for me to hate Time Warner, but this one is not at the top of the list. I don't really have any other options... the only other choices would be DISH or DirecTV which would kill my use of Tivo entirely.

Now we just upgraded one of our TVs to an LCD HDTV and I didn't pay attention and have discovered that it only has component inputs... no composite video, so I can't use my Tivo Series 2 with it. If I replace it with a Tivo HD then I'll be down to one Tivo I can MultiRoom View from...

If Time Warner hadn't dropped low enough, we bought MLB Extra Innings. They have somehow programmed that so that I can't even DVR the games on the TivoHD. I have to finish watching them within about 3 hours of the conclusion of the game, and it even blocks me from starting late and fastforwarding to catchup and finish in time. Did I say that I hate Time Warner. Someone in that company has gone crazy with the copy protection thing and it is so messed up. They don't have MRV on their DVRs, so they seem to be blocking Tivo from doing it with TivoHD. So now I have to record the games from MLB Extra Innings on one of the Series 2 Tivos. Did I say that I hate Time Warner.

Any ideas anyone has I'd love to hear. I am wondering if this would warrant a class action suit or FCC complaint on TW.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by convergent

the only other choices would be DISH or DirecTV which would kill my use of Tivo entirely.

Yet it is TWC that you choose to complain about, instead of Dish Network or DirecTV. That's pretty silly, IMHO.

I think you need to think more positively towards the people who are willing to serving you (TWC) and more negatively with regard to those who aren't willing to serve you at all (Dish Network and DirecTV).

Originally Posted by convergent

I am wondering if this would warrant a class action suit or FCC complaint on TW.

Ridiculous. Nothing but an unrestrained sense of entitlement would justify such a thing.

[va176thunderbolt]

For what's it worth, I had the same complaint I submitted to TWC in Central Ohio. It seems that MRV is blocked for almost every channel, with the exception of the broadcast channels. TWC repeatedly stated that they are passing whatever flag the original content provider set, and the they were not setting the flag to block MRV. I contacted several providers which indicated that they do not set it and don't have a problem with MRV. I gave up with TWC and switched to Wide Open West. MRV works perfectly now, and I won't be going back to TWC anytime soon.

As far as complaining about Dish/DirecTV, I choose to handle them in the same manner I am handling TWC - with giving them none of my business (voting with my wallet).

[Enrique]

Originally Posted by va176thunderbolt

As far as complaining about Dish/DirecTV, I choose to handle them in the same manner I am handling TWC - with giving them none of my business (voting with my wallet).

I get what your saying about Dish, but DirecTV is releasing a new HD Tivo so you will be able to get all of their HD channels soon, and in their current testing they have streaming MRV in their boxs(So I don't see how you can put DirecTV along side Dish and TWC with the way DirecTV has handled MRV in it's own boxs).

[bicker]

Do be aware that, without regard to what TWC claims in terms of passing along what the network wishes, they are wholly within their rights to apply copy restriction flags themselves, of their own accord, on non-broadcast channels, unless their agreement with the channel explicitly prohibits it.

[raianoat]

I wish that somebody had a solution to this problem. I've blogged about it on a number of occasions including here:

http://www.tivoblog.com/archives/200...yte-explained/

I thin it would be great if TiVo could implement a streaming solution so that we could get around this issue.

[convergent]

Originally Posted by bicker

Yet it is TWC that you choose to complain about, instead of Dish Network or DirecTV. That's pretty silly, IMHO.

I think you need to think more positively towards the people who are willing to serving you (TWC) and more negatively with regard to those who aren't willing to serve you at all (Dish Network and DirecTV).

Ridiculous. Nothing but an unrestrained sense of entitlement would justify such a thing.

Entitlement? Save the entitlement argument for someone else. I am probably one of the most "legal" people on the planet with regard to copyrights.... I buy everything I use, and so does everyone in my family thanks to me.

I do feel entitled to use the features of the products that I've bought. Time Warner has no reason to do this other than "because they can" and "because they want to block something for people that they don't want them to have". It has been pointed out in numerous threads, including this one, that other providers do not block this kind of thing. The fact that they block me from even DVRing MLB Extra Innings that I pay an additional $200 to them for, should tell you something. I can't even save a game to watch the next day on my Tivo HD. Next season I will vote with my wallet and choose MLB's deal instead of TW's.

I never said DISH or DirecTV was better. I said they were my only other options besides TW. Since neither currently offer me a way to use my Tivo, then obviously it wouldn't be a solution to my problem.

I fail to understand what you are talking about with "willing to serve me". You make it sound like they are offering me charity work or something. All three of these companies are businesses that you pay to use. In the case of TW... at least here in NC... you pay dearly to use their service. You've got this turned around... a business should be catering to their customers that are "willing to buy" their service. I have been a TW customer for many years, but would consider switching in a minute if there was some real competition.

Originally Posted by va176thunderbolt

For what's it worth, I had the same complaint I submitted to TWC in Central Ohio. It seems that MRV is blocked for almost every channel, with the exception of the broadcast channels. TWC repeatedly stated that they are passing whatever flag the original content provider set, and the they were not setting the flag to block MRV. I contacted several providers which indicated that they do not set it and don't have a problem with MRV. I gave up with TWC and switched to Wide Open West. MRV works perfectly now, and I won't be going back to TWC anytime soon.

As far as complaining about Dish/DirecTV, I choose to handle them in the same manner I am handling TWC - with giving them none of my business (voting with my wallet).

Boy do I wish there was some competition for TW here... I'd be gone pretty quick. I recently moved from NY to NC and I'm paying them about $40 more per month for less services than I had with TW in NY. I pointed this out to them and they just said basically, "tough".

Originally Posted by bicker

Do be aware that, without regard to what TWC claims in terms of passing along what the network wishes, they are wholly within their rights to apply copy restriction flags themselves, of their own accord, on non-broadcast channels, unless their agreement with the channel explicitly prohibits it.

You seem to be way more concerned about them exercising their "rights" than allowing their customers to get the most from their services and products that they've paid for. It is perfectly legal for these programs to be used in the manner that Tivo HD would allow (i.e. MRV), if they weren't blocking it. My guess is that if they had a way to block you from using a Tivo entirely, they would.

With something like a Tivo, the world is now capable of bypassing the cable TV provider entirely. Tivo should be partnering with the cable content providers to offer their customers direct subscriptions to individual channels that would work on demand just like Netflix and Amazon do. I would gladly dump cable entirely and get my local channels OTA, IF I could subscribe to the other channels that I really watch. The other 95% of what Cable provides I'd gladly do without. Of course, in my case I'd still be stuck with TW for broadband, and that's an area they are also rapidly looking for ways to restrict in terms of bandwidth.

Entitled? No. Its more like wanting to buy services from a company that is forward thinking and embracing new technologies and services, rather than increasing their profits by figuring out how to block their customers from legally using alternatives to their products, AND, charging more and more for the same services.

[va176thunderbolt]

Originally Posted by bicker

Do be aware that, without regard to what TWC claims in terms of passing along what the network wishes, they are wholly within their rights to apply copy restriction flags themselves, of their own accord, on non-broadcast channels, unless their agreement with the channel explicitly prohibits it.

Then they should simply state that this is in fact what they are choosing to do instead of trying to pass the buck to someone else (terms of service would be a good place to bury it in legalese).

[fallingwater]

Originally Posted by raianoat

I think it would be great if TiVo could implement a streaming solution so that we could get around this issue.

Moxi has promised such a solution but doesn't have it yet. If/when they do, and it works well, TiVo will have a real incentive to improve their relatively slow and all too often blocked, MRV system. In my area, Comcast copy flags all Premium channels.

[ZeoTiVo]

I have not even gotten around to putting cable cards in my TiVo HD and I avoid the TWC restrictions in that way. I use OTA to get some of the broadcast channels in HD. Then I use Netflix for movies and such.

This policy by TWC of copy restricting is pushing me away from becoming a more embedded customer and that is a risk TWC should consider more carefully.

I had a TWC contractor stand in my living room and claim cable cards were being phased out so I would not need them. It was an outright lie that further pushed me away as a customer. My neighbor has DBS but his reception is spotty and that has led me away from that avenue. Once FIOS is available in my area I would drop TWC instantly. As it is TWC is on a slow march out of my house as other avenues for content open up.

TWC really needs to change their approach or they will be an also ran if a few short years.

TiVo really needs to change their MRV approach or others like MOXI will also pass them by.

[convergent]

Originally Posted by fallingwater

Moxi has promised such a solution but doesn't have it yet. If/when they do, and it works well, TiVo will have a real incentive to improve their relatively slow and all too often blocked, MRV system. In my area, Comcast copy flags all Premium channels.

Out of curiosity, when Comcast flags Premium channels, does it block you from even saving them and watching later on a single Tivo? The only premium channel I have with TW is MLB Extra Innings, which is a subscription. They have the flag set so that I can save it, but it has to be fully watched within a couple of hours of the completion of the game. So if you don't start watching the game before it even ends, it will slowly delete the beginning of the game until its all gone. I don't have other premium channels with TW to compare, but this is kind of ridiculous. My wife likes to watch the games later.. sometimes the next day. So we are forced to use our older Series 2 Tivo to do this rather than the Tivo HD which we'd prefer to use.

I would think that Tivo could modify their system to allow MRV ONLY on anything, but block copying the material out of the Tivo system in any way. I'm sure that violates some ridiculous rule here... but I fail to see how that would hurt the content providers which is ultimately what these flags were designed to protect. What is the difference between streaming to another room, VS copying it to a different room's Tivo and then automatically deleting it after its been watched? Think of it as a streaming buffer of a couple hours which can be paused for a period of time... say up to 48 hours or something. I'd actually prefer to have MRV be some kind of streamed solution anyways because I end up with multiple copies of the same material scattered around my Tivos. So the real solution to this in my mind is for Tivo to work around idiotic organizations like TW by applying technology to the problems. TW's tactics will eventually catch up with them when people vote them away with their wallets.

[fallingwater]

Recording a Premium Channel on TiVo works normally. MRV to other TiVos is blocked.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16555005

[shwru980r]

I don't understand why TW is forcing you to watch the game within the next 3 hours of recording. Can you copy the file to your computer with TTMG software to preserve the file and then copy it back when you want to watch it?

[atmuscarella]

The people running Time Warner have a legal obligation to maximize their stockholders profits. Unfortunately they have decided the way to do that is:

1. Treat their customers like sh**
2. Provide a product and service that isn't really what people want
3. Try not to provide the product and service that people do want

When a company believes the above is the way to maximize profits it pretty much tells you competition isn't working.

It also likely means that Time Warner has more than a few customers that would be more than happy to dump them if an suitable product was actually provided by the market.

These same unhappy customers will be more than happy to use the power of Government to sh** on Time Warner. Just look what happened when Time Warner wanted to f*** over their Rochester NY Internet customers by instituting down load caps.

Thanks

[wmcbrine]

Originally Posted by convergent

Now we just upgraded one of our TVs to an LCD HDTV and I didn't pay attention and have discovered that it only has component inputs... no composite video, so I can't use my Tivo Series 2 with it.

I never heard of such a thing. Can you tell me the make and model? I have to see this for myself.

[20TIL6]

I remember TWC of NC being one of the earliest obstructors to customers using cablecard TiVo boxes. I remember people reporting that TWC would not provide cablecards, and even went as far as saying that TiVo was not supported on their network. I don't know what kind of support TWC thought would be requested, but they basically tried to close the door by not providing cablecards.

With respect to TWC and the protection flags blanketing the digital tier, I went through the same ordeal with Comcast in Houston. I filed a complaint with the FCC and after a few letters to Comcast executives and some phone calls with a support manager, the protection flags were removed. It took a few months though.

You should complain if the protection flags devalue the service for which you are paying TWC. Most cable customers just have the generic cable DVR, so protection flags and MRV mean nothing to these customers. The only thing protection flags do for cable companies is cripple a great feature on TiVo. That's probably the reason they do it. When I went through this, I contacted several of the broadcasters where Comcast was applying the flags. None of the broadcasters said they required it of Comcast to do so.

[Squeege96]

Just a thought - could PyTiVo or TTG be of help here? Technically, you are not using MRV, but transferring it to your PC. I know that with PyTiVo, you get a lot more flexibility.

Like I said, just a thought.

Also, any idea on if or when FiOS might come to your area? It looks like it would be the answer to all your prayers.

[wmcbrine]

Originally Posted by Squeege96

Just a thought - could PyTiVo or TTG be of help here?

No. The transfer is prevented at the TiVo end for both MRV and TTG. (If anything, you'd expect TTG to be more restricted than MRV, since the resulting copies could go anywhere. In practice, there is no difference.)

[netringer]

Don't pay for defective by design.

TWC says you're a thief. Why would give them business?

I still intend to drop HBO on Comcast due to the copy flag.

[MickeS]

convergent, be aware that bicker will never say the cable company is doing anything wrong, unless they are doing something illegal. They are always right. Just "think more positively" about TWC and all will be well!

[Dan203]

Originally Posted by bicker

Yet it is TWC that you choose to complain about, instead of Dish Network or DirecTV. That's pretty silly, IMHO.

I think you need to think more positively towards the people who are willing to serving you (TWC) and more negatively with regard to those who aren't willing to serve you at all (Dish Network and DirecTV).

The ONLY reason TWC is allowing him to use a TiVo, instead of forcing him to use a provided DVR like Dish and DirecTV do, is because the government forced them to so. If the CableCARD law had not been passed a few years back then cable would be no different then DSS with regard to DVR options.

Personally I think the government should step up an impose a similar law on the DSS providers. DirecTV and Dish combined make up 30% of the pay TV market in the US. That is more then enough that they should be held to the same standards and practices that the cable companies are.

Obviously, due to technology differences, they couldn't actually use CableCARDs. But they could come up with some sort of unified standard that would work similar to CableCARD. That would allow 3rd parties like TiVo to offer their service to everyone regardless of who their TV provider was.

Dan

[lafos]

Originally Posted by wmcbrine

I never heard of such a thing. Can you tell me the make and model? I have to see this for myself.

I don't know what convergent has, but I have a pair of Samsung T220HD ToC TV's and they lack composite or s-video inputs.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by convergent

If Time Warner hadn't dropped low enough, we bought MLB Extra Innings. They have somehow programmed that so that I can't even DVR the games on the TivoHD. I have to finish watching them within about 3 hours of the conclusion of the game, and it even blocks me from starting late and fastforwarding to catchup and finish in time.

This part seems to have been missed in the discussion so far. It sounds like they have set the "copy never" flag on this channel. I gather that it's a premium channel, but NOT pay per view or video on demand, is that right? If so, it is absolutely against FCC regulations to set the channel to "copy never." Legally, they can set "copy once," which is what blocks you from using MRV, but they cannot set "copy never" except for pay per view or video on demand.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Enrique

I get what your saying about Dish, but DirecTV is releasing a new HD Tivo so you will be able to get all of their HD channels soon

The DirecTV box has already slipped from 2009 to 2010. Even if ships in January 2010, that's not IMO "soon".

Based on TiVo's utter incompetence at delivering these products (just how many years has the Comcast box slipped?) I'll wager $100 that the box will ship closer to January 2011 than to January 2010.

[Enrique]

Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin

The DirecTV box has already slipped from 2009 to 2010. Even if ships in January 2010, that's not IMO "soon".

Based on TiVo's utter incompetence at delivering these products (just how many years has the Comcast box slipped?) I'll wager $100 that the box will ship closer to January 2011 than to January 2010.

"Soon" to me is up to five years out. The original HD Tivo was released on May 7, 2004 so whats another 2 years waiting in getting one that works with DirecTV current HD channels (At least we're getting one after all).

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by raianoat

I wish that somebody had a solution to this problem. I've blogged about it on a number of occasions including here:

The solution (for the TiVo Sereis II class machines) has been out there for, oh, about 2 years.

[mattack]

Originally Posted by shwru980r

I don't understand why TW is forcing you to watch the game within the next 3 hours of recording. Can you copy the file to your computer with TTMG software to preserve the file and then copy it back when you want to watch it?

Does that "extra innings" count as PPV?

someone please give the actual details, but I thought that *that* level of restriction was enforced by the FCC to be only for PPV.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by Dan203

The ONLY reason TWC is allowing him to use a TiVo, instead of forcing him to use a provided DVR like Dish and DirecTV do, is because the government forced them to so. If the CableCARD law had not been passed a few years back then cable would be no different then DSS with regard to DVR options.

What you have there is a nail whose head has been squarely hit.

Originally Posted by Dan203

Personally I think the government should step up an impose a similar law on the DSS providers. DirecTV and Dish combined make up 30% of the pay TV market in the US. That is more then enough that they should be held to the same standards and practices that the cable companies are.

There are myriad things the government should do. What it will do is protect its income, mostly in the form of bribes.

Originally Posted by Dan203

Obviously, due to technology differences, they couldn't actually use CableCARDs.

Well, yeah, they could. The two technologies could be merged without too much trouble. There would have to be legacy support, of course, for older models, but there's nothing fundamentally preventing a move to a single separable security device standard for all pay TV services.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin

The DirecTV box has already slipped from 2009 to 2010. Even if ships in January 2010, that's not IMO "soon".

'Not impatient, are we?

To me it seems barely the blink of an eye since I purchased my first personal computer. That was 1979. I could have been angst ridden over the delay in providing a 32 bit computing platform, but instead I simply enjoyed the computer I had, and then in 1985 bought a 386. I could have rushed out to buy a Series II when it came out, but instead I waited until a more fully featured system - the S3 - came out, and then purchased one (and then another, and another...).

I don't see that I was greatly deprived or suffered in any significant way using a 16 bit computer or a Series I TiVo all those years. In fact, I had a blast.

Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin

Based on TiVo's utter incompetence at delivering these products (just how many years has the Comcast box slipped?) I'll wager $100 that the box will ship closer to January 2011 than to January 2010.

Since you find them so incompetent, obviously you must have the answer to how they should have handled the situation. Would you care to share this wisdom with the rest of us?

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by bicker

Do be aware that, without regard to what TWC claims in terms of passing along what the network wishes, they are wholly within their rights to apply copy restriction flags themselves, of their own accord, on non-broadcast channels, unless their agreement with the channel explicitly prohibits it.

Or it is a local OTA broadcast channel. The point is, however, they LIE about it. Whether the CSR is just stupid, misinformed, or just plain lazy, it is still a public misrepresentation of fact by an authorized agent of the CATV company.

It's very likely the CSR simply hasn't a clue. The fact the CATV company often hires minimum wage high school dropouts to man their support lines aside, corporate TWC often deliberately prevents its employees from learning too much about the business side of the house. Two of the most evil, slimy, utterly dishonest people I have ever known personally were a VP of public relations and a VP of human resources with TWC. One was jailed for perjury and fraud, and the other finally was forced to resign for reasons unknown to me. I suspect, to paraphrase "The Duke" from [u]Man of LaMancha[u], she probably suffered, "A lapse of judgement. She told the truth." Either way, whetehr through deliberate misrepresentation to its employees or failing to see to it they are properly informed, it's a lie.

A friend of mine, still a manager at TWC, once complained to the local President and GM of the San Antonio system in a large meeting, "All you want is mushrooms. Just mushrooms."

Puzzled, the GM asked, "Mushrooms?"

"That's right," he said. "All you want to do is keep us in the dark and feed us $#!t."

It's just one of many reasons I was so happy to leave the company. From what my friends tell me, they haven't improved much in the intervening years.