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Old 05-12-2009, 06:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by bicker View Post
And how do we get more competition? Increased profit motive. In other words, more people willing to pay more.
OK, what does that have to do with ads? You think putting ads all over the UI is going to get more people to pay more money? I don't. If anything it's going to scare customers away and make those who remain want to pay less money.

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Old 05-12-2009, 06:54 PM   #62
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So let's assume Tivo is developing a new, high def user interface for the Series 4 (all pure speculation). Assuming this interface will include ads, where should they show up so as to be visible enough to attract advertisers, but not so in-your-face that the viewers complain?
If TiVo Search is any indication of what an updated UI is going to look like then I think there are going to be ads in that top bar where they currently put pictures of related programs.

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Old 05-12-2009, 06:54 PM   #63
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Do we really need another thread about this?
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:13 PM   #64
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Easy to claim, but there is no foundation for your ridiculous pronouncement.
By what measure is TiVo top dog now? Certainly not profitablilty nor number of units deployed...
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo View Post
Will TiVo fall based on ads - again I doubt it. Unless people start ditching subs then ads are revenue for TiVo and so far I have not seen evidence of significant subs lost to the ads in the interface.
People are ditching TiVo subs. Of course we don't know what a major reason is, but one can speculate that ads are at least one of the factors why Tivo is losing net subscribers.
There is also no evidence (at least on TiVo SEC filings) that TiVo makes any money on ads. Even if they do, it is peanuts because 1.5 million subs (impressions) is not enough to get material income from the ad sales.
The only real reason TiVo added ads is Wall Street hype. TiVo has been running on hype since day 1. But by now they just out of ideas on how to tell shareholders about the brighter future. They lose subs, they lose money, there is more competition, Dish is coming up with VIP922 equivalent for cable, and the only path to future profitability they could come up with was to tell shareholders that they will be selling ads.
As Bicker said, perhaps there isn't any business model that could make TiVo profitable, but to stay afloat they have to come up with some hype. They can't tell Wall Street that they not going to be profitable ever.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:35 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dgf123 View Post
Some day all of us and yes even you die hard tivo fans on this site will be able to say I used to have a tivo.
Your not a Die Hard TiVo fan being your a member of the TiVo community website?

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The only problem is that they want to sell content that is commercials. That is the reason most people went with tivo in the first place to avoid those annoying ads.
I had TiVo when DirecTV first came out with it, when i cancelled DirecTV i missed the TiVo aspects of it. Years later i have returned to TiVo because i want the reliablility and function i missed. To my suprise the TiVO HD is greatly improved over what i was use to and missed and its a far site better then FiOS DVR's. Sure these ads may be annoying to some but if one is SO lazy as to not push the soft and easy to reach with a little motion of your thumb down arrow maybe TV isnt your thing.

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I was changing and was put in touch with a tivo rep who says she cares about customer feedback so all complaints should go to her Jessica --jloebig@tivo.com.
Whats she going to say, she coluld care less?
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo View Post
if I want to know about that episode yes I use info button

Will TiVo fall based on ads - again I doubt it. Unless people start ditching subs then ads are revenue for TiVo and so far I have not seen evidence of significant subs lost to the ads in the interface.
But I am one who is now much less inclined to recommend Tivo to friends who want recording devices both to record shows but also to reduce the commercial load. Now Tivo has added their own style. And like Late Night Movie channels, the commercials are tacky - that "band" or whatever the heck, it really irritating.

Friends had already been disinclined because of the additional costs monthly but I suggested Lifetime could fix that. But they also asked about commercials. Now my response will be different.

Does anyone know if that posted email address is a good one for complaints. I don't want to send an email and get on some spam list.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:39 PM   #68
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Arrow Well, actually...

I'd actually be cool with even MORE ads on my Tivo if it also meant that the subscription prices could come down. Unfortunately the trends appears to be more ads and higher prices.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:46 PM   #69
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Many of us (some of us? a few of us?) agree that ads are necessary evil to improve Tivo's bottom line and help them stay in business. The real arguement I see people complaining about where ads show up. It's as if the ads are hacked into a pre-existing UI, and the result is unsightly and obtrusive.

So let's assume Tivo is developing a new, high def user interface for the Series 4 (all pure speculation). Assuming this interface will include ads, where should they show up so as to be visible enough to attract advertisers, but not so in-your-face that the viewers complain?
I for one am not interested in beta testing where tivo should place ads. They should not place ads on my viewing screen.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:46 PM   #70
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But I am one who is now much less inclined to recommend Tivo to friends who want recording devices both to record shows but also to reduce the commercial load. Now Tivo has added their own style. And like Late Night Movie channels, the commercials are tacky - that "band" or whatever the heck, it really irritating.

Friends had already been disinclined because of the additional costs monthly but I suggested Lifetime could fix that. But they also asked about commercials. Now my response will be different.

Does anyone know if that posted email address is a good one for complaints. I don't want to send an email and get on some spam list.
Hi David,

Thank you for following up. I will provide your feedback to the appropriate teams, as it is good to hear the customer perspective.

Best,

Jessica

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Jessica Loebig
Subject: RE: TiVo follow up

Tivo should give out an e-mail address so their customers can tell them how they feel about new "features" such as the "more info" pop up. All over the Internet people are getting disgusted with tivo and this pop up. Why can't the customer just turn it off? This is so anoying to many people and when I called customer service about it they say that there are more adds coming and I should get used to it! I wont be loyal to tivo any longer!


On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:00 PM , Jessica Loebig wrote:

Hi David,

I received your below testimonial, and am sorry to hear your feelings
of TiVo customer care. I want to also see if there was any additional
follow up I could provide as we would like to get more insight on the
issues that caused you to feel this way? I am glad to set up a call as
needed to discuss.

It is always good for us to hear feedback from customers as we are
constantly working to improve the TiVo experience be it customer
service or product related.

Again, please feel free to contact me if you have any additional
requests.

Best Regards,

Jessica Loebig
Public Relations Coordinator
TiVo Inc.


My tivo

"My TiVo used to be a great machine. Now every time I press the pause
button I see more info and I say out loud TIVO SUCKS! and every time I
get the chance to tell some one about TiVo I am happy to tell them to
go with MOXI because TIVO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS!
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:04 PM   #71
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My tivo

"My TiVo used to be a great machine. Now every time I press the pause
button I see more info and I say out loud TIVO SUCKS! and every time I
get the chance to tell some one about TiVo I am happy to tell them to
go with MOXI because TIVO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS!
That was the feedback you sent them?! Very mature and proper sounding there chief, I'm sure they'll get right on that.

You do realize that both her responses were likely canned, and simply done to get you to go away.
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:07 PM   #72
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I agree with the posters who found that these new ads have crossed a line. It's something about the placement, the way they're interleaved with the menu selections relating to what you're actually doing - you feel violated because you can't avoid looking at them and reading them.

This is a very bad idea. I found it instantly changed my feelings about Tivo. Immediately I started thinking about the monthly fee, and whether it's time to look at alternatives again. When I find myself paying to have ads sprayed in my face, I feel like a chump.
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:44 PM   #73
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Removing the three words "you feel violated" completely changes the message I think you intended:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim _h View Post
It's something about the placement, the way they're interleaved with the menu selections relating to what you're actually doing -
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim _h View Post
...because you can't avoid looking at them and reading them.
Using such words will probably not help the cause of getting the ads removed. Advertisers (and Tivo) are probably thinking "mission accomplished!"
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:22 PM   #74
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To all those advising "ignore it" I say you are clueless!
The reason they placed the ad where they did is because people are ignoring them elsewhere. If you ignore the whisper they will talk. If you ignore the talk they will shout. If you ignore the shout they will hit you. If you ignore....
This feels like desperation because TIVO is not a stupid company and they have to know people dislike these ad placements. They have clearly and actively chosen to spend a sizable chunk of good-will-capital in order to get something in return. It remains to be seen what that "something" is. Is it continued investment from people who are seeing them try new ways to raise revenue? Is it that they actually can make millions by charging for the ads? Is it just a suffocating enterprise bouncing around gasping for air?
If TIVO is goinng to succeed - it's time to say "thanks for all the fish" - leave the planet and let someone right-size the company.
Ads on the radio, tv, billboards, and on web sites are not analogous to the ads now on TIVO. Radio is free, TV is free, billboards are on real-estate I did not pay for. If Microsoft made me look at an ad every time I opened Excel, or Word it would be what TIVO is doing here.
OK - I think TIVO was doing OK with the ads - they were getting a little intrusive but I was willing to tarry on. As I said originally though - this new ad placement crosses a line and they have begun to punish me for ignoring the ads in the more subtle places. Why? It's ironic that TIVO is part of the generation of Ad-Killers that took an opportunistic role in consumers desire to skip ads. This happened not that long after the National Association of Broadcasters abandoned their guidelines limiting the number of ads in a 30 minute timeslot. TIVO now finds themselves having to rely on a business model that's actually contrary to the idea from which they were conceived. Perhaps some clever sole will invent a device that removes ads from TIVO. Eventually though they will likely have to use ads to support this new service...

Des

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Old 05-12-2009, 09:26 PM   #75
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Do we really need another thread about this?
Yes we do.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:37 PM   #76
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To all those advising "ignore it" I say you are clueless!
SO cancel, you don't need to make it your lifes mission to convince everyone on the Internet

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Yes we do.
Yes, because the other half dozen threads didn't convince everyone they were wrong, this one is SURE to work!
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:39 PM   #77
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That was the feedback you sent them?! Very mature and proper sounding there chief, I'm sure they'll get right on that.

You do realize that both her responses were likely canned, and simply done to get you to go away.
I have turned down two seperate invites to do tivo beta testing and I have had numerous contacts with tivo about many different subjects. Jessicas response was just that her response. I don't see any one else from tivo giving anyone their email and wanting to set up phone conversations to discuss problems. I have given the original poster and the others who have a problem with tivos ads a valid tivo email to voice thier concerns to.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:39 PM   #78
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If it bothers you so much maybe you should suggest to Tivo that they offer an Ad-free tier for their subscription that is double what you'd pay now.
I would be thrilled to pay it, but only on one condition: TiVo signs a contract with every advertiser requiring them to reduce the cost of any items purchased by me by a prorate based upon TiVo refunding them the cost of my subscription.

<cough>

Of course, such a solution is ridiculously unworkable. I would vastly prefer they simply raise their rates. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and it's going to cost me one way or another. I prefer to pay up-front. It's probably cheaper in the long run, but even if not, I absolutely detest hidden costs.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:42 PM   #79
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I'd actually be cool with even MORE ads on my Tivo if it also meant that the subscription prices could come down. Unfortunately the trends appears to be more ads and higher prices.
In gawd's name WHY!!!??? Are you of the totally moronic notion it would somehow cost you less? Guess again. It probably costs you more. 'As likely as not, much, much more. Unless you never buy anything, ever, it certainly isn't going to save you anything.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:43 PM   #80
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SO cancel, you don't need to make it your lifes mission to convince everyone on the Internet
No - I will complain. If you don't want to listen then - well, you can take the advice to ignore it. I want TIVO to change this. I refuse to be French and surrender to the absurd.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:47 PM   #81
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So what is the alternative? Have Tivo tell the advertisers "No, we don't want your money. We can just make the monthly subscription rate higher, and completely remove Lifetime Subscription offers, because in the long run those hurt us. We know we won't get any new customers because we'll have to charge so much for the service without your advertising dollars, but we can squeeze what we can out of our current subscribers who love us because we removed the one line of text when they hit pause, and the one line of text in the Now Playing List."

Gimme a <expletive deleted> break!
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:51 PM   #82
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Yeah, when I want to know more about a program, the first thing I'd think to do, with a tivo, is use the Info button on the remote, not the pause button.
Sheesh, don't give them any more ideas.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:58 PM   #83
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So what is the alternative? Have Tivo tell the advertisers "No, we don't want your money. We can just make the monthly subscription rate higher, and completely remove Lifetime Subscription offers, because in the long run those hurt us. We know we won't get any new customers because we'll have to charge so much for the service without your advertising dollars, but we can squeeze what we can out of our current subscribers who love us because we removed the one line of text when they hit pause, and the one line of text in the Now Playing List."

Gimme a <expletive deleted> break!
Why should we give you a break? And why should we give tivo a break? Why should there be an alternative? Find out who your customers are and what your customers want and give that to them for a mutually agreed upon price. As costs go up you may need to raise your prices but you should never change the product you sold in the first place with out renegotiating the price.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:04 PM   #84
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This feels like desperation because TIVO is not a stupid company and they have to know people dislike these ad placements.
I disagree.

I think TiVo is a stupid company in that their fearless leader isn't innovating, he's merely doing what he is familiar and comfortable with, viz advertising. Here are some snippets from his bio:
  • Chairman and CEO of PRIMEDIA, Inc. ... the leading targeted media company in the United States. ... PRIMEDIA published some 200 magazines, operated more than 400 websites, and owned a wide range of television and video businesses
  • President of NBC Cable and Executive Vice President of NBC
  • co-chairman of the Arts and Entertainment, and History Channels
  • responsible for overseeing many other cable channels including Court TV, Bravo, American Movie Classics, Independent Film Channel, the National Geographic Channel, and numerous regional sports channels

What does all that have in common? What pays the bills? ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, and more ADVERTISING!

They say a fish rots from the head down, so we shouldn't be surprised that this is the direction that TiVo is taking.

P.S. Upon re-reading the above, I think that Rogers is TiVo's John Sculley. The antithesis of Steve Jobs. We want technical innovation; instead he wants to sell us sugar water.

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Old 05-12-2009, 10:11 PM   #85
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For some reason there's a Tivo fan club that likes to immediately put down anyone who says anything negative about Tivo; even if it ultimately might make Tivo better off in the long run by listening to these ever-growing complaints.

Tivo is great and I'm a huge fan but it doesn't make me any less of a fan to point out when Tivo makes what I feel to be mistakes. Obviously, you're entitled to disagree with me but these childish insults only further prove my point. I pay my Tivo bill just like anyone else. These ads, in my opinion of course, cheapen Tivo's image.

As far as cable companies inserting ads; you're forgetting that Tivo's primary function is to accomplish two things;

a. Record shows with the ability to watch them later

b. Avoid commercials (AKA Advertisements)

All of us purchased a Tivo because of these two most important features; or at least originally when Tivo was first released. Ironically, most of those who insult people who question these ads probably have the 30-second hack activated; not because they enjoy randomly skipping scenes in shows but because they want to avoid advertisements.

I personally purchased my Tivo to avoid ads and have no intention of ever clicking any ads displayed. Because of this we should be given the option to disable these ads. Perhaps even make it somewhat difficult to do so such as having to call Tivo and request it. This way Tivo can be certain those of us who request an ad free service would have never clicked any of these ads in the first place. (After all, if you're willing to call and request no ads the likelihood of you clicking any of the ads in the first place is slim-to-none.)

Anyhow, I respect others who disagree with me so please don't continue to belittle those of us who disagree with your POV.

Regardless of everything said above, I love my TivoHD and so far the ads haven't "crossed my line". Now if they start introducing popup ads in the middle of the screen during TV shows then I'll have to consider abandoning ship.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:24 PM   #86
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No - I will complain. If you don't want to listen then - well, you can take the advice to ignore it. I want TIVO to change this. I refuse to be French and surrender to the absurd.
I'm trying to, but these threads keep popping up every few days, much more annoying than the ads...
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:28 PM   #87
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SGR215, if everyone thought like you did, then what's the financial motivation for networks to make and broadcast tv shows?
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:00 PM   #88
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I'm trying to, but these threads keep popping up every few days, much more annoying than the ads...
Mission Accomplished. You think that is by accident?
Get the word out..
Tivo is an ad box!

Personally, I think Tivo has all of our f'kin mail addresses.. why not send out a god damn catalog of Waist-Cinchers and Bad Tv show ads or spam the fk out of my e-mail address. PLEASE! But stay the f'k off my menus where you don't belong.

TV's came out with commercial sound filters.. because cable companies were blasting the sound during commercials and pissing off customers. Why? Monopoly. But Tivo is no monopoly.. We may not get filters, popup blockers, or any other ad defense measure. BUT we will get better products.. Moxi, AMD, Sony, et all.. the end is nigh for Tivo and I'm coming. U know they smell blood in the water.

Oh.. and those who do not know.. Windows 7 has HD TV capabilities.. checkout AMD Fusion Media explorer and think HD. That OCT release is looking like a good time to jump ship.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:04 PM   #89
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Bored now.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:13 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by SGR215 View Post
For some reason there's a Tivo fan club that likes to immediately put down anyone who says anything negative about Tivo; even if it ultimately might make Tivo better off in the long run by listening to these ever-growing complaints.

Tivo is great and I'm a huge fan but it doesn't make me any less of a fan to point out when Tivo makes what I feel to be mistakes. Obviously, you're entitled to disagree with me but these childish insults only further prove my point. I pay my Tivo bill just like anyone else. These ads, in my opinion of course, cheapen Tivo's image.

As far as cable companies inserting ads; you're forgetting that Tivo's primary function is to accomplish two things;

a. Record shows with the ability to watch them later

b. Avoid commercials (AKA Advertisements)

All of us purchased a Tivo because of these two most important features; or at least originally when Tivo was first released. Ironically, most of those who insult people who question these ads probably have the 30-second hack activated; not because they enjoy randomly skipping scenes in shows but because they want to avoid advertisements.

I personally purchased my Tivo to avoid ads and have no intention of ever clicking any ads displayed. Because of this we should be given the option to disable these ads. Perhaps even make it somewhat difficult to do so such as having to call Tivo and request it. This way Tivo can be certain those of us who request an ad free service would have never clicked any of these ads in the first place. (After all, if you're willing to call and request no ads the likelihood of you clicking any of the ads in the first place is slim-to-none.)

Anyhow, I respect others who disagree with me so please don't continue to belittle those of us who disagree with your POV.

Regardless of everything said above, I love my TivoHD and so far the ads haven't "crossed my line". Now if they start introducing popup ads in the middle of the screen during TV shows then I'll have to consider abandoning ship.
Thanks SGR215 -
I'd like to comment on some of your statements. Yes, there is a Tivo fan club. I would think it's to be expected at a "Tivo Community" website. Being such a site, I feel those that come here only to complain come as antagonists and instigators. What is expected to be accomplished by coming to this forum and complaining? At the top of every page at this site is a Tivo Community logo that states "This site is not part of Tivo, Inc." So who are they complaining to that can make a difference?

I have two users in my ignore list (see my signature) that I feel fit in this category. The following is one of the user's first post at this site (posted in 3 separate forums on the same day):
Quote:
There is no way to turn off the "FOR MORE INFO CRAP" Two calls to customer service and both reps have said it is here to stay and will be coming to our series three DVRs soon! Unless enough people...
This is the other user's first post:
Quote:
Honestly, I am disappointed with Tivo.. and thanks to the ads.. 2 of my friends who I was showing my new tivo to decided NOT to get a Tivo this week, specifically cause of the ads. Way to go Tivo!...
Feels pretty antagonistic and very negative to me. I'm reminded of the scene in one of the Diehard movies where Bruce Willis wearing a sandwich board first meets Samuel L Jackson. Of course people are going to take offense. And just like the Tivo ads, I ignore them, too.

Anyway, I do have the 30 second hack enabled, and maybe that is why I don't find the ads so intrusive. If and when I do pause, most of the programming I watch do NOT include the additional 1 line of text. Some programming does. I'm with you: Tivo has not crossed a line with me. I don't watch the ads on TV; I don't click the ads on Tivo. I don't love ads. I do view them as a necessary part of any business. It is possible that Tivo may get an advertiser of a product I'm interested in, and I may view such an ad. Maybe they could partner with WD and advertise harddrive replacements?
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