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Old 02-18-2009, 01:52 PM   #1
larry99
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mp4 transcoding appears to be eliminated

Starting this week I have seen another jump in speed for mp4 transfers since Desktop version 2.7 came out. Transfer time has been reduced from about 50 minutes to about 5 minutes! File size of the transferred file is the same as the original mp4. And [bit rate] *transfer rate to DVR* has about doubled to 2 mbs. Is this part of the Desktop 2.7 change that is just now being implemented? Has TIVO finally elminated mp4 transcoding?

Last edited by larry99 : 02-19-2009 at 09:08 AM. Reason: "bit rate" was confusing
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:23 PM   #2
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That would be great news if so. If you transfer from Tivo back to PC again what do you get (and what size is it)?
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:43 PM   #3
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Copyright prevents test

I can't transfer back because of the TIVO copyright restriction. Lets me transfer from PC to DVR but not back from DVR to PC.
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:57 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry99 View Post
I can't transfer back because of the TIVO copyright restriction. Lets me transfer from PC to DVR but not back from DVR to PC.
That's odd. Why would something you transferred in be flagged as copyrighted?
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry99 View Post
Starting this week I have seen another jump in speed for mp4 transfers since Desktop version 2.7 came out. Transfer time has been reduced from about 50 minutes to about 5 minutes! File size of the transferred file is the same as the original mp4. And bit rate has about doubled to 2 mbs. Is this part of the Desktop 2.7 change that is just now being implemented? Has TIVO finally elminated mp4 transcoding?
What's the software version on the TiVo?
Messages & Settings > Account & System Information > System Information

Latest Software versions by model:
http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/...formation.html


There's been at least one report in the forums of a 11.0b "Spring 2009" release. I wonder if the new software is a pre-req for mp4-native transfers?
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:39 PM   #6
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DVR version

Version on my S3 DVR; 11.0-01-2-652. TIVO website shows 11.0......On copyright, everything has some copyright even if its free to download. Why TIVO lets copyrighted material transfer one way and not the other, I have no idea. The particular program I used this time was Democracy Now for Feb 18 th. But I have encountered this problem before.

Last edited by larry99 : 02-18-2009 at 03:42 PM. Reason: More detail
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:34 PM   #7
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larry99, do you have a link to an mp4 file which exhibits this behavior by any chance?
If not, can you post detailed specs of an mp4 file which is doing this? Ideally if you can use something like mediainfo to collect all specs on the file that would be great. Thanks!
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry99 View Post
File size of the transferred file is the same as the original mp4. And bit rate has about doubled to 2 mbs.
That isn't physically possible

Look deeper, you may have a problem you don't realize yet.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:49 PM   #9
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Link

Try mp4 download of this link via bittorrent or miro;
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/18/stream

Berkshires: Which isn't possible, the 2 mbs upload speed or the file being the same size? The mp4 file size is 441 mb, the DVR shows 0.44 Gb after transfer. I watched the download via Sygate on my PC and it averaged about 2 mbs. That's about twice what I have experienced before over my wireless g network with TIVO. I didn't time the upload exactly, but it was definetly under 15 minutes for a 1 hour video. I did it for two mp4s including the link above. I have watched about half of that one. Will watch the rest tommorow and post if there are any problems.

Mediainfo: MPEG-4 441 MiB 59mn 5s, video stream AVC, audio stream AAC. English, 900 Kbps, 640*480(4/3) at 29.970 fps, AVC

Last edited by larry99 : 02-18-2009 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:03 PM   #10
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I'm not home so can't easily try transfer to Tivo yet, but here's detailed specs on the file:
(In summary it's h.264 video with 2 channel AAC audio in mp4 container)
Code:
General

Complete name                    : C:\home\Demnow-DemocracyNowWednesdayFebruary182009386.mp4

Format                           : MPEG-4

Format profile                   : Base Media / Version 2

Codec ID                         : mp42

File size                        : 95.3 MiB

Duration                         : 59mn 5s

Overall bit rate                 : 225 Kbps

Encoded date                     : UTC 2009-02-17 13:06:59

Tagged date                      : UTC 2009-02-17 13:06:59



Video

ID                               : 201

Format                           : AVC

Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile                   : Baseline@L1.3

Format settings, CABAC           : No

Format settings, ReFrames        : 6 frames

Codec ID                         : avc1

Codec ID/Info                    : Advanced Video Coding

Duration                         : 59mn 4s

Bit rate mode                    : Variable

Bit rate                         : 120 Kbps

Maximum bit rate                 : 1 045 Kbps

Width                            : 320 pixels

Height                           : 240 pixels

Display aspect ratio             : 4/3

Frame rate mode                  : Constant

Frame rate                       : 14.985 fps

Original frame rate              : 25.000 fps

Resolution                       : 24 bits

Colorimetry                      : 4:2:0

Scan type                        : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.104

Stream size                      : 50.7 MiB (53%)

Writing library                  : x264 core 59

Encoding settings                : cabac=0 / ref=6 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=umh / subme=6 / brdo=0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=12 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=0 / keyint=90 / keyint_min=15 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=crf / crf=26.0 / rceq='blurCplx^(1-qComp)' / qcomp=1.00 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=2:1.00

Encoded date                     : UTC 2009-02-17 13:06:59

Tagged date                      : UTC 2009-02-17 13:07:01



Audio

ID                               : 101

Format                           : AAC

Format/Info                      : Advanced Audio Codec

Format version                   : Version 4

Format profile                   : LC

Format settings, SBR             : No

Codec ID                         : 40

Duration                         : 59mn 5s

Bit rate mode                    : Variable

Bit rate                         : 104 Kbps

Maximum bit rate                 : 158 Kbps

Channel(s)                       : 2 channels

Channel positions                : L R

Sampling rate                    : 32.0 KHz

Resolution                       : 16 bits

Stream size                      : 43.8 MiB (46%)

Encoded date                     : UTC 2009-02-17 13:07:00

Tagged date                      : UTC 2009-02-17 13:07:01

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Old 02-18-2009, 05:14 PM   #11
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It just occurred to me that one may need to have Tivo Desktop Plus to transfer mp4 files from PC->Tivo using Tivo Desktop, so I may not be able to try this out (certainly not willing to spend the money on Plus). So if someone else out there with Plus can try this out and get the same results as larry99 that would be greatly appreciated.
(If mp4 is indeed being transferred and stored natively on Tivo then that capability should be possible to enable in pyTivo).
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:17 PM   #12
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larry99, I should be able to generate a short test clip with similar encoding profile that is DRM free that should be possible to transfer back from Tivo to PC. Will post a URL for it after I get a chance to generate one and if you could try it out that would be great.
Come to think of it, the issue may not be DRM at all but rather Tivo doesn't have a TTG mechanism for transferring mp4 files from Tivo->PC
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:38 PM   #13
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Use bittorrent version

Moyekj: Your parameters are different from mine. There are two mp4 versions on the link. I am using the Bittorrent. Its 640*480 and 900 Kbs. I will do more testing tommorow. Is there a way to attach a jpg? I could then show you exactly what I have.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:48 PM   #14
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Just for grins can you try the following encoding I just generated? It's a short 1 minute or so clip. (I don't think the exact bit rate etc. is as important as the video and audio types. As long as that matches the torrent version then should be sufficient for our testing purposes).
http://tivostream.googlecode.com/files/test.mp4
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:09 PM   #15
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Moyekj, I tested your file using Tivo Desktop Plus 2.7 and here are the results:

File size on computer is 13.7MB

Transfer From Computer to Tivo HD:
File size on Tivo reads 0.050GB
File Size in Tivo Desktop Plus reads 60MB

Transfer From Tivo To Computer:
File Size on Computer is 52MB

I will test the video larry99 linked to and report back.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:15 PM   #16
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Thanks Allanon. Going by the size looks like the test clip is being transcoded to mpeg2. If you decrypt the .TiVo file transferred back and look at the specs you can determine for sure if that's the case.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:03 PM   #17
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I'd love to give this a try. How do you check file sizes on the Tivo?

F


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allanon View Post
Moyekj, I tested your file using Tivo Desktop Plus 2.7 and here are the results:

File size on computer is 13.7MB

Transfer From Computer to Tivo HD:
File size on Tivo reads 0.050GB
File Size in Tivo Desktop Plus reads 60MB

Transfer From Tivo To Computer:
File Size on Computer is 52MB

I will test the video larry99 linked to and report back.

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Old 02-18-2009, 07:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry99 View Post
Transfer time has been reduced from about 50 minutes to about 5 minutes! File size of the transferred file is the same as the original mp4. And bit rate has about doubled to 2 mbs.
I see - contextually your 2mbs refered to the bit rate of the video, not the transfer speed, but you meant the transfer speed.

In that case, '50min to 5min' and 'double transfer speed' don't make sense. Either way, all three statements can't be simultaneously correct.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:27 PM   #19
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Why? As I understand him, he is transferring the MP4 file directly instead of transcoding it to a larger MPEG-2 file and transferring that to his Tivo. So, if he's getting twice the transfer rate with substantially smaller file, he could be seeing 1/10 the transfer time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by berkshires View Post
I see - contextually your 2mbs refered to the bit rate of the video, not the transfer speed, but you meant the transfer speed.

In that case, '50min to 5min' and 'double transfer speed' don't make sense. Either way, all three statements can't be simultaneously correct.

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Old 02-18-2009, 07:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyodor View Post
I'd love to give this a try. How do you check file sizes on the Tivo?

F
From Now Playing List "right" into a show then click "info" to see extended info about the show. The file size is listed towards the bottom of the screen (for some shows you have to page down to see it).
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:08 PM   #21
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I downloaded the video using bit torrent and transfered it to the Tivo using Tivo Desktop Plus 2.7:

File size on computer is 440MB
File size on Tivo is 2.66GB

My conclusion is it's being re-encoded.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allanon View Post
I downloaded the video using bit torrent and transfered it to the Tivo using Tivo Desktop Plus 2.7:

File size on computer is 440MB
File size on Tivo is 2.66GB

My conclusion is it's being re-encoded.
Thanks for posting and sorry to hear it. Not sure what's going on with larry99's setup then... BTW does it show up as copy protected for transferring back to PC? (I would guess not).
From a previous post looks like larry99 is using a THD (model 652). Did you try with THD, S3 or HDXL unit? (Not that it probably matters but just for completeness would be good to know).
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:52 AM   #23
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It's Working! (but only for auto-transfers)

I got the same results as Allanon when I tried transferring the test movie (requesting from the Tivo). The downloaded video was 3.26 gb from a 440MB movie.

Annoyed that larry99 had wasted my time with his foolish foolery, I set some other mp4s (that I was planning to watch) to auto-transfer, expecting to watch them after the slow transcoding process.

I came downstairs to find the first transfer nearly halfway done. Checking the size, it was the same size as the source file. I tried setting some other mp4s to auto-transfer-same result. Super fast with a Tivo file that is about the same size as the source file (not exactly because of the way the Tivo measures gigabytes).

I tested both ways with a few other files. When files are requested from the Tivo, it transcodes. When it's set to auto-transfer from Tivo Desktop, it transfers in mp4 format.

There are some very slight differences in appearance too between the native mp4 files and the transcoded mpeg-2 files.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
Thanks for posting and sorry to hear it. Not sure what's going on with larry99's setup then... BTW does it show up as copy protected for transferring back to PC? (I would guess not).
From a previous post looks like larry99 is using a THD (model 652). Did you try with THD, S3 or HDXL unit? (Not that it probably matters but just for completeness would be good to know).


Last edited by fyodor : 02-19-2009 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:17 AM   #24
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I did an auto transfer using Tivo Desktop Plus 2.7 with the test file moyekj posted and got these results:

File size on computer is 13.7MB

Transfer From Computer to Tivo HD using Auto Transfer:
File size on Tivo reads 0.01GB
File Size in Tivo Desktop Plus reads 20MB

The file is marked as copy protected so I couldn't transfer the file back to the computer. Also it took less than 30 seconds to transfer the file to the Tivo. I have a feeling auto transfer uses the same protocol as the Tivo subscriptions because those are also copy protected when transfered to the Tivo.

Last edited by Allanon : 02-19-2009 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:06 AM   #25
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Very interesting indeed! Thanks for the discovery guys and especially thanks to larry99 for 1st posting about it!
NOTE: When streaming mp4 files to Tivo the transfer speeds are quite a bit higher than mpeg2 so that jives well with what you guys are seeing as well.

The real exciting part about this is that HD downloads to Tivo in H.264 format now seems to be a reality. HD mpeg2 internet downloads to Tivo were never really viable because of large file sizes but now this opens up the door for HD internet downloads. I'll have to try generating some different encodings such as H.264 video with multi-channel AC3 audio to see if that works as well... May have to go ahead and fork up the money for TD Plus to investigate more easily. It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a way to get these non-mpeg2 videos back off the Tivo again.

One more thing to check please is to look at the Tivo Now Playing List XML for 1 of these shows to see if there is anything interesting there. i.e. (replace IP below with your Tivo IP)
Code:
https://192.168.1.101/TiVoConnect?Command=QueryContainer&Container=%2FNowPlaying&Recurse=Yes
login=tivo
password=MAK
Do ContentType & SourceFormat will still show video/x-raw-tivo-tts for these?

Now the hard part of how to emulate this with something like pyTivo...
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Old 02-19-2009, 04:14 AM   #26
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Here is the information, the title is the name of the folder I used for auto transfers.

Code:
 
- <Item>
   - <Details>
      <ContentType>video/x-tivo-raw-tts</ContentType> 
      <SourceFormat>video/x-tivo-raw-tts</SourceFormat> 
      <Title>Testing</Title> 
      <CopyProtected>Yes</CopyProtected> 
      <SourceSize>20971520</SourceSize> 
      <Duration>71000</Duration> 
      <CaptureDate>0x499D051E</CaptureDate> 
      <EpisodeTitle>test</EpisodeTitle> 
      <Description>Transferred by TiVo Desktop Copyright Tribune Media Services, Inc.</Description> 
      <HighDefinition>Yes</HighDefinition> 
      <ProgramId>BS15000101</ProgramId> 
      <SeriesId>BS1315814499</SeriesId> 
      <ByteOffset>0</ByteOffset> 
      <RecordingQuality>255</RecordingQuality> 
   </Details>
   - <Links>
      - <Content>
         <Url>http://192.168.0.10:80/download/Testing.TiVo?Container=%2FNowPlaying&id=1480724</Url> 
         <ContentType>video/x-tivo-raw-tts</ContentType> 
         <Available>No</Available> 
      </Content>
      - <TiVoVideoDetails>
         <Url>https://192.168.0.10:443/TiVoVideoDetails?id=1480724</Url> 
         <ContentType>text/xml</ContentType> 
         <AcceptsParams>No</AcceptsParams> 
      </TiVoVideoDetails>
   </Links>
</Item>

Quote:
May have to go ahead and fork up the money for TD Plus to investigate more easily.
Doesn't pyTivo have the push capabilities that is used by Tivo Desktop Plus auto transfers? Might try your test files to see what happens.

http://pytivo.krkeegan.com/new-devel...sfer-t677.html

Last edited by Allanon : 02-19-2009 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:03 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allanon View Post
Doesn't pyTivo have the push capabilities that is used by Tivo Desktop Plus auto transfers?
Yes, but it doesn't yet know about pushing MP4 without transcoding it.
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:17 AM   #28
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Update

I am glad some people have been able to duplicate. I may not have time until Friday to do more testing myself. Notes:

- Up until this week the mp4s were being transcoded. The file size on the DVR was over 3 GB, about 5 times the mpg2 size. If you take twice the transfer speed and reduce the file size by a factor of 5 you do get a 10 times increase. Hence 50 minutes to 5 minutes makes sense.

- There are both auto and manual modes available for the transfer from PC to TIVO. Is this the auto mode that is being talked about in prior posts? (As opposed to the auto transfer of files from DVR to PC.) I will test in both modes as soon as I get a chance. (I think I was using auto-transfer from PC to DVR last week as well as this week. So this would not explain why the improvement this week.)

- The Bps I referred to is as seen in the Sygate firewall main menu.

- My TIVO is the HD one selling for $299.99 on the TIVO website.

- The one change I made this week was the installation of VideoReDO. Is it possible that had some effect?

- Do we know if TIVO made any software changes subsequent to release of Desktop 2.7?

Last edited by larry99 : 02-19-2009 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry99 View Post
- Up until this week the mp4s were being transcoded. The file size on the DVR was over 3 GB, about 5 times the mpg2 size. If you take twice the transfer speed and reduce the file size by a factor of 5 you do get a 10 times increase. Hence 50 minutes to 5 minutes makes sense.

- Do we know if TIVO made any software changes subsequent to release of Desktop 2.7?
Now your numbers make sense, although a 5X increase from mpeg4 to mpeg2 seems like quite a waste - not that that had anything to do with you.

Its perfectly likely its been there a while, at least from the release of 2.7 (and 11.x) and you just noticed it first. You don't happen to have the 11.x beta update I received last week on my S3, do you?
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:48 AM   #30
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DVR Software

See prior post in this thread (DVR Version , 3:39 PM Wednesday) for my software version. How do I know if its a beta?
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