New Moxi HD DVR is out - will this be a true competitor for the Tivo HD?

[slowbiscuit]

Looks like the Moxi HD DVR is available for sale at Amazon now. At $800, it appears to compare favorably in price with a new Tivo HD + 500GB drive + lifetime service. Comparing features published for the Moxi, the specs appear to be very similar except for the network features available on the Tivo, such as MRV and PC transfer abilities. Not to mention Netflix streaming...
One plus might be that Moxi says that it has commercial skip. Looking at the screen shot it might just be a programmable skip time, but if it really does mark breaks (and works correctly most of the time) it's a great feature that Tivo will never have.

Guess we'll see how these compare once folks get their hands on them and publish reviews. I'm very glad to see someone else pushing Tivo to make a good product even better.

[Mindflux]

799 with a lifetime? I guess it's not too far off TiVo right now.

[bkdtv]

Originally Posted by slowbiscuit

One big plus is that the Moxi has commercial skip! Doesn't appear to be automatic, but if it works correctly most of the time it's a great feature that Tivo will never have.

Moxi doesn't have commercial advance. It has 30s "commercial" skip. TiVo has the exact same feature.

[Jerry_K]

Without MRV it would be useless to me. Does anyone know if it really works. Sort of like the Ronco cooker. Set it and forget it. That is the power of TiVo.

[mohanman]

I agree MRV is essential, as is being able to download shows on the computer to put into itunes or ipod/iphone etc.
Mo

[Playloud]

I used to have an old 80GB Moxi box.



The interface wasn't bad, though at the time I wish they could have included a grid guide (I no longer care about that).

The remote was the best I had seen (I think I like it more than the Tivo Glo Remote).

I did like how I could access any menu while still watching what was playing. This is something I miss on the Tivo HD (though it has gotten better).

Also, the Moxi would buffer more than 30 minutes. This was nice. If I came home, turned on the TV, and found myself in the last 5 minutes of an hour show that would like to have seen (usually on the History channel), I could record the whole show, because it was ALL in the buffer. I did this many times.

---

The Moxi box did have a couple of problems though.

1. It was LOUD. The fan could be heard from clear across the room. My Tivo HD is silent by comparison.

2. It wanted to reboot itself virtually EVERY night. I would be watching TV at about 2am, and it kept asking me if it could reboot for maintenance. My Tivo HD never asks me this. Every six months or so, it will reboot with an update, but I can live with that.

3. 80GB for an HD box! It didn't really affect me, as I didn't have an HDTV at the time, but that was some rather poor planning on their part. That was enough room for about 10 hours of HD before the HDD was completely full.

---

Well, clearly the last problem has been fixed. 500GB is a decent sized HDD for a DVR. If the new Moxi box even wanted a chance to replace my Tivo HD, it would have to fix the first two problems I mentioned (which it might have, but I don't know).

It would also need to have the equivalent of TivoToGo, as I like to archive my shows for future viewing. Multiroom viewing is not important to me, but I can see how it would be for others. If it wants to compete with Tivo, it needs to outperform Tivo. The interface is more modern compared to Tivo, though some prefer the Tivo anyway.

Personally, I can't wait to see the Tivo Series 4!

[moyekj]

This seems a little disturbing/misleading:

Record all of your shows in 1080p so you get the same crystal clear picture quality as the broadcast.

I'm assuming these are options for analog encodings only.

Based on Moxi's history of promises without delivering I would be very skeptical to jump on this early.
Some important features to me that seem to be missing (using Tivo terminology):
* MRV,TTG,TTCB
* Undelete
* Video downloads and/or streaming
* OTA support

EDIT: Also there is no mention of SDV TA support

[RonDawg]

Originally Posted by Playloud

500GB is a decent sized HDD for a DVR.

Not for $800, when for roughly the same money the TiVoHD/My DVR Expander/Lifetime combo offers 1/3 more capacity, added features like MRV/TTG, and the familiar TiVo interface.

And that's assuming you pay the full $399 for Lifetime; for those of us who are already TiVo subscribers, we of course can get Lifetime for $100 less. Does Moxi offer any multi service discount, particularly if you already own an older box? And for those of us whose budgets aren't quite that generous, we can opt for monthly and prepaid plans and pay much less up front, an option not available (for now anyway) on the Moxi unit.

If Moxi wants to compete with TiVo, it will have to drop its price significantly, probably below $500. When Sony tried to get in the DVR game, sans TiVo, with its HDD-DGG250 and 500 units, it didn't do very well, and that was at a time when TiVo didn't have its own HD-capable units to compete with.

[justintime]

I rented a 80GB Moxi from Charter before I bought my TiVo HD. I wanted to like it, but just couldn't. Aside from 80GB being too small:

• There was a significant boost in SD channel quality on the TiVo vs the Moxi.
• The thing was unreliable -- it constantly missed programs, and locked up a lot.
• I just couldn't get used to the menu structure. It looks cool, but didn't function well.
• WAF - The wife refused to use the Moxi. She would rather watch the S1 tivo on our 27" SD TV than watch the Moxi in HD on our 62".

The Moxi did have a decent forum topic on avsforums.com, and there was an employee that posted quite often (Moxiguy, IIRC).

Might be worth checking out that forum if you're interested. Me, I'm sticking with TiVo.

[lew]

At that price point I'd expect built in wireless and a 1T drive. Moxi said they reserve the right to charge extra for new features (MRV, TTG?). May not be a big deal but it looks like the Moxi doesn't have OTA tuners or a modem (broadband only).

Cable and satellite companies are offering "bundle" pricing. I'm not sure there is a market for one premium priced DVR (tivo) I'd be surprised to see Moxi take off, at least at the current price.

[ciper]

Originally Posted by moyekj

This seems a little disturbing/misleading:

Record all of your shows in 1080p so you get the same crystal clear picture quality as the broadcast.

What if the show is broadcast in 720p?

[Playloud]

Yeah. That is dumb. "Recording" in 1080p takes up a lot more space than recording in 480i. Just record it in SD, and up-rez it when needed.

[Dmon4u]

A more direct Link to the Product:

http://moxi.com/moxi/discover_moxi_hd.jsp

Product Facts: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/MoxiHDDVR_FAQ.pdf

Quick Start: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/QuickStartGuide.pdf

User Guide: http://moxi.com/support/MC4R/MoxiHDDVR_userguide.pdf

[mattack]

Thanks.. wow..

Q. What signal sources does the Moxi HD DVR support?
A. The Moxi HD DVR supports digital cable. You will need one (1) Multi-Stream CableCARD to receive premium channels from your cable provider. To receive analog cable channels (if digital simulcast is unavailable), you can request an external analog tuner provided by Digeo at www.moxi.com (Shipping and handling charges apply).

It has no internal analog tuner(s). So I guess that means it also doesn't get analog OTA (for the next 2.5 months...)

[MickeS]

Competition is good!

But no OTA is a no-go for me, although if it can be used to get the local channels in HD without a CableCARD that would go a long way towards making up for that.

I too wonder about SDV, I would imagine that just like with TiVo that would be a big problem for many cable subscribers if it doesn't work with that.

I use my TiVo everyday to play downloaded content from my PC. I don't think any stand-alone DVR in today's market will be able to sell without this ability in some form - without that ability (and something like TiVoToGo), I see little to differentiate it from the cable companies offerings (barring a superior UI and recording logic of course).

The UI seems really nice-looking, way better than TiVoHD in appearance. For example, ever since the Series 3 was released there has been discussion about how TiVo is wasting real estate. Look at the "Now Playing" list on this Moxi screenshot:

I have no idea whether it works better than TiVo or not, but that screenshot presents a lot more info on one screen than what the equivalent "Now Playing" on a TiVo does. That TiVo STILL does not take advantage of HD and 16:9 in its menus is disappointing.

The price seems to be very reasonable for what you get.

[sinanju]

Originally Posted by Playloud

Yeah. That is dumb. "Recording" in 1080p takes up a lot more space than recording in 480i. Just record it in SD, and up-rez it when needed.

Not to mention that there isn't any broadcast 1080p. I'm going to guess that they mean they scale everything to 1080p.

[bkdtv]

The hardware itself does appear to be good.

Based on their published "tech specs," Moxi appears to be using a variant of Broadcom's next-generation BCM7400B, with about twice the processing power of the BCM7401 in the TivoHD.

They also appear to be loading their software from flash ROM.

[bkdtv]

As a follow-up to the above, I'm told this box will boot in a fraction of the time of the TiVo.

[cramer]

Originally Posted by mattack

It has no internal analog tuner(s).

The cable labs standards (and maybe the FCC) require that it have analog tuning capability in addition to digital tuning. The sticky part is whether or not it can *record* an analog broadcast. Many cable companies still broadcast emergency alerts on an analog channel. (ch. 125 in every TW area I've been.)

[ZeoTiVo]

the MOXI has some features that would make my TiVo HD perform in ways that would be better for me.
- clear QAM mapping
- record only in this time slot
are two I know of already. I would like to see MOXI do well and put TiVo in a mode of feeling those added features do help sales.
I, sadly though, predict that instead MOXI will not do well in the direct to conusmer market at the 800$ price range. Hopefully TiVo can find some unused resources to add some of the better parts of MOXI into their Series 4 design and implementation.

[TexasGrillChef]

I say NO... It WON"T compete with TiVo.

Why?

Because IT won't EVER do as MUCH as the TiVo can do...

If your talking straight DVR to DVR comparison. Maybe. If you don't care about getting Netflix, Amazon, Rhapsody, MRV, TTG, TTCB, etc..... Then it won't ever do as much as a TiVo could or WILL be able to do.

Nuff said... The Moxi is a box for the "Joe Six Pack" and not the upscale TV watchers that MOST TiVo are.

TGC

[gweempose]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

I would like to see MOXI do well and put TiVo in a mode of feeling those added features do help sales ...

Absolutely! Competition is never a bad thing for the consumer.

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by bkdtv

As a follow-up to the above, I'm told this box will boot in a fraction of the time of the TiVo.

Keep in mind that the TiVo does more as well. So it has more to "LOAD".

My Quad Core computer boots Windows 3.1 really really fast....

XP and Vista on the other hand boot really slow....

Hmmmm Anyone want to go back to Windows 3.1???? I don't think so..

The Moxi Box has some good things... a few things better than the TiVo. On the other hand. The TiVo still does MORE than the Moxi box ever will.

TGC

[jebbbz]

A quick scan of the Moxi documents tells me that an external analog tuner is available (FAQ) but they mention it only in relation to analog cable so I assume no OTA.

There appears to be only a single live buffer and it is of variable size but never less than 30 minutes for SD and 10 minutes (!) for HD.

It looks like external HDD capability is rather more flexible than TiVos. The selection of external compatible eSATA HDDs is greater and you may swap drives without losing recordings -- at least there is no warning of that. They do warn that new HDDs plugged in will be formatted but it looks to me like you can have a shelf full of external eSATA drives that you may swap in and out as you wish.

[lew]

Originally Posted by gweempose

Absolutely! Competition is never a bad thing for the consumer.

Tivo already competes with cable and satellite provided DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two premium products. Competition isn't good if it results in both tivo and Moxi leaving the market. Moxi could fail, but attract enough tivo customers to drag it down with it.

[jeepguy_1980]

Originally Posted by lew

Tivo already competes with cable and satellite provided DVRs. I'm not sure there is a market for even one "premium" DVR, I'd be shocked if there is a market for two premium products. Competition isn't good if it results in both tivo and Moxi leaving the market. Moxi could fail, but attract enough tivo customers to drag it down with it.

I don't think it's that the market isn't there. I think it's that the price is too high for such a market. Considering the hardware you actually get with a TiVo, it's significantly over priced. You can pretty much build an HTPC for the price of a TiVo with lifetime. Granted, that HTPC wouldn't have a lifetime subscription, but it has more options for guide data. That's not to say that HTPC's have a huge market, b/c of price and complexity (for most people). But I think that a lot of people seriously considering a TiVo probably think an HTPC is a better buy for the money or that a cable companies DVR is a better deal.

I'm sure 90% of the TiVo's cost has to be in the firmware, b/c the hardware doesn't really justify the price. I know I could go rent a dual tuner HD box from my cable company and never return it and the bill would be less than buying a TiVo. Granted, the box would be flagged as stolen and not work anywhere.

[bkdtv]

Originally Posted by jeepguy_1980

I'm sure 90% of the TiVo's cost has to be in the firmware, b/c the hardware doesn't really justify the price. I know I could go rent a dual tuner HD box from my cable company and never return it and the bill would be less than buying a TiVo.

I wouldn't be sure. Last I heard, Comcast's charge for a lost Motorola HDTV DVR was approximately $400.

Verizon FiOS charges you over $475 if you lose their Motorola HDTV DVR.

[rainwater]

My big concern would be whether Moxi will be around in a year or two. Based on what I have seen, I wouldn't count on it. Plus, I don't see how they are going to do much damage in the standalone market for a box that is $800 and seems to offer less features than a TiVo (which is already available in many retail locations).

[moyekj]

Originally Posted by jeepguy_1980

I don't think it's that the market isn't there. I think it's that the price is too high for such a market. Considering the hardware you actually get with a TiVo, it's significantly over priced. You can pretty much build an HTPC for the price of a TiVo with lifetime. Granted, that HTPC wouldn't have a lifetime subscription, but it has more options for guide data. That's not to say that HTPC's have a huge market, b/c of price and complexity (for most people). But I think that a lot of people seriously considering a TiVo probably think an HTPC is a better buy for the money or that a cable companies DVR is a better deal.

HTPC doesn't really count since most setups don't support encrypted QAM channels. If you do want encrypted QAM channels then you are restricted to HTPC systems that support CableCard which there are very few of them and they are very expensive compared to Tivo since you have to buy the whole system, not just the tuner that supports CableCards.

[ciper]

Originally Posted by moyekj

HTPC doesn't really count since most setups don't support encrypted QAM channels.

This is a bigger problem than many realize. Even the "standard" channels included in your expanded basic programming are often encrypted. Food HD, Discovery HD Theater, National Geographic HD, SciFi HD, ESPN HD, and HGTV HD and about 60 music stations are examples of encrypted channels on my last two cable providers!