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Old 11-08-2008, 03:49 PM   #1
Phantom Gremlin
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Does TiVo HD XL have pixellation problems?

I'm considering FiOS but don't want to play the "attenuator" game. I already have a TiVo HD that I use with cable, and had to add a distribution amp to boost the signal before I achieved reliable operation. My conclusion is that the RF section of the original TiVo HD is far inferior to cable/verizon DVRs.

So, does anyone know if TiVo has re-engineered the RF front end on the new TiVo HD XL? I'd buy as many as three more boxes if I knew I wouldn't have to waste time and play attenuator/amplifier games in order to get a stable signal.

Thanks
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:03 PM   #2
TolloNodre
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You'd spend nearly a $1000 on TiVos but you won't spend $3 on an attenuator to make it work with Fios?
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:22 AM   #3
Phantom Gremlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TolloNodre View Post
You'd spend nearly a $1000 on TiVos but you won't spend $3 on an attenuator to make it work with Fios?
It's not the cost of an attenuator. It's the HASSLE!

People spend hours trying 10 dB, 13 dB, 16 dB, etc. Then they wind up with most channels OK, but a few channels with lots of correctable errors and maybe a few channels with uncorrectable errors. Something changes (perhaps the phase of the moon) and they need to start fiddling again.

I want a product that JUST WORKS! If I want flaky and unreliable operation I'll rent a box from Comcast or Verizon.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:47 AM   #4
bkdtv
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TiVo did not re-engineer the front end in the XL. It is possible shipping XLs use a newer revision of the TiVoHD logic board (I don't know). If you buy an XL, you're essentially guaranteed that you get a relatively new unit.

You may need an attenuator. In some cases, an attenuator is needed even with the Verizon's Motorola boxes. Or you may not. Many are using their TivoHD just fine without an attenuator. It all depends on the ONT you get and your particular installation / wiring.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:38 AM   #5
jmoak
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From all indications, the Tivo HD and the Tivo HDXL are the same, save for the increased capacity of the latter.

The tuner front-end's should be exactly the same.

One of my Tivo HD's is sitting side-by-side with a SA 8300HD. Phase of the moon aside, it will hold a watchable signal with a lower signal level better than the SA box.

To tell you the truth though, I'd gladly put up with attenuators and the hassle of too strong of a signal instead of the problems associated with the incessant low signal I now have.

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Old 11-10-2008, 06:50 PM   #6
FiosUser
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Forget the attenuator and get a diplexer.

I ditched the attenuators, put on the diplexer and haven't looked back. It is way better and you don't have to do the trial and error.

I got mine at Home Depot (they only have 1--it is like $9+)
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:03 PM   #7
Phantom Gremlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
TiVo did not re-engineer the front end in the XL. It is possible shipping XLs use a newer revision of the TiVoHD logic board (I don't know). If you buy an XL, you're essentially guaranteed that you get a relatively new unit.

You may need an attenuator. In some cases, an attenuator is needed even with the Verizon's Motorola boxes. Or you may not. Many are using their TivoHD just fine without an attenuator. It all depends on the ONT you get and your particular installation / wiring.
Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately there *have* been reports of people needing to fiddle with attenuators in the Portland Oregon area. I wonder if Verizon deploys different brands/models of ONT's within a single service area?

Just to make clear to everyone why I'm trying to stay away from the attenuator/diplexer game, here's a snippet from the latest post in the sticky thread. I don't want to wind up like this guy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferky1 View Post
Please help, I've had Tivo since 2000 and want this to work so badly. I am no fan of Comcast's DVR, but at least I can watch all of my channels in my bedroom without having to deal with this crap. Tivo is close to losing a long-time supporter. . .

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Old 11-15-2008, 07:12 PM   #8
substance12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiosUser View Post
Forget the attenuator and get a diplexer.

I ditched the attenuators, put on the diplexer and haven't looked back. It is way better and you don't have to do the trial and error.

I got mine at Home Depot (they only have 1--it is like $9+)
is the reasoning behind this because a diplexer also acts as a bandpass filter and attenuator? the signal to my tivo passes through 2 splitters and I still have issues on some channels.
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:39 AM   #9
Phantom Gremlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by substance12 View Post
is the reasoning behind this because a diplexer also acts as a bandpass filter and attenuator? the signal to my tivo passes through 2 splitters and I still have issues on some channels.
I think there are two separate but related problems:

1) Some ONTs put out a very *hot* signal, much higher level than the TiVo RF front end can cope with. Using attenuators (or splitters) will reduce this signal level to the TiVo. The front-end electronics in the DVRs supplied by Verizon or the cable company can tolerate a wider range of input levels, and so don't need attenuators.

So, let's say the ONT puts out a signal at 30 dBmV. A Tivo might only work at a max signal level of 16 dBmV. So you need four 2:1 splitters in series (each reducing signal by 3.5 dB) to get down to a range where the TiVo will function correctly: 30 dBmV - 3.5 dB - 3.5 dB - 3.5 dB - 3.5 dB = 30 - 14 = 16 dBmV.

A 4:1 splitter reduces the signal by 7 dB, so you would only need two of those in series (assuming you needed to drop 14 dB).

Of course this is all very approximate. The splitters and the coax and the RF front end will all behave somewhat differently at different frequencies throughout the range of 54 MHz (channel 2) to 860 MHz (channel 135). That's probably why people have so many problems making this all work with 100% reliability.

2) Some (all?) FiOS installations use something called MOCA. This is a scheme that utilizes a 1 GHz+ frequency on the coax in your house for box-to-box communication and for things like Internet connectivity from a router in your house to the ONT outside the house. Apparently the TiVo RF front-end is adversely affected by this high frequency, but it shouldn't be. Cable channels don't go above about 860 MHz.

The diplexer is a solution to the second problem. It takes a single (combined) coax input and splits into low frequency (below 860 MHz) and high frequency (above). It does this with lower signal losses than a traditional splitter would add. That's a great win for people whose house coax is carrying low-signal-level OTA signals at those low frequencies.

The diplexer is (relatively) cheap and available because satellite companies like DirecTV play the same game as MOCA. I.e. they use 1 GHz+ to send satellite signals to receivers in your house. They chose this scheme so they could co-exist with existing antenna and/or cable signals already going to TVs in your house, without needing to run a second coax.

Some people say that you should add a 75-ohm terminator to the high frequency output of the diplexer if you don't use it. I'm not knowledgeable enough of the inner workings of those devices to know if that's really necessary.
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